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21st September 1939 (Germany)

Seemingly encouraged by the early U-boat successes, Hitler gave the go ahead to ramp up U-boat production. The faintly ridiculous Plan Z was cancelled and sixteen shipyards were ordered to tool up for U-boat construction. Orders were placed for over 120 U-boats over the course of the next month.

However, the U-boat service still had to compete not only with the other two services, but also the rest of the Kriegsmarine – for which two battleships, an aircraft carrier and three heavy cruisers were still being built.

Amazingly, having started the war with just 57 boats, in the first six months of the war, just SIX ocean-going U-boats were commissioned. It would be a long time before Donitz could field anything like the number of U-boats he wanted – and needed – if he was to defeat the British and starve the UK into submission.

Source:
Hitler’s U-boat War Volume I (Clay Blair)
Chronology of the War At Sea 1939-45 (Jurgen Rohwer)

20th-26th September 1939 (North Sea)

The RN put large numbers of submarines into the North Sea – boats from three flotillas patrolled off Norway and the Skaggerak to try and disrupt enemy shipping. Not only did the patrols prove unsuccessful but on the 25th HMS Spearfish was damaged as a result of an attack by enemy ships.

Ships of the 2nd Cruiser Squadron and the accompanying destroyers were called upon to bring her safely back to the UK. This force was covered by ships of the Home Fleet. The Luftwaffe attacked the Home Fleet and the battlecruiser HMS Hood was hit by a bomb and the carrier Ark Royal, in action once again, was near missed. The AA fire proved ineffective and rules of engagement were changed as a result; in future gunners were not to wait for the order to open fire.

HMS Spearfish was escorted safely back to the UK.


The S-class would be the largest single class of submarine ever built for the RN, numbering 62 in all. HMS Spearfish was one of the 12 submarines of the class in service at the outset of the war. Three of these would survive the war – HMS Spearfish, sunk in July 1940, was not one of them. Pictured is a later boat from the class - HMS Stonehenge.



The carrier Ark Royal was claimed to have been sunk by the Luftwaffe during this episode. This was not the last time the Germans would make this claim!


The dangers of aircraft to capital ships was not yet appreciated fully. HMS Hood survived being hit by a 500kg bomb launched from a Ju-88 - but not without damage. The bomb landed a few feet short of the boatdeck, ripped open the top of the anti-torpedo bulge and the port lower boom was shredded with splinters. Pipes were fractured and electrical power to the pom-poms was cut. In addition the great ship suffered condenser damage, and this damage was to severely limit the Hood's performance over the winter months such that in March 1940, with Italy showing signs of sabre-rattling, Hood was taken into dock for a desperately overdue refit. During this dockyard visit her last ten 5.5-inch guns were removed and replaced with three dual-purpose 4-inch mounts and five unrifled projector launchers.



Source: End of Glory (Bruce Taylor)

My thanks to Aurelian [&o]

I have taken the above episode from two sources - Naval-History.net and the Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-45. These I have found pretty reliable sources.

What I have not done is to cross reference every ship history (I don't have them for a start!) to verify the outcome. Aurelian has pointed out that the damage to Hood was greater than reported in either of the sources named above. I checked this with my copy of "The End of Glory - War and Peace in HMS Hood 1916-1941" and sure enough the bomb did not simply bounce off the deck or cause negligible damage.

I will re-word the above post. Thanks once again Aurelian. This job is going to be more difficult than I thought...

25th September 1939 (The English Channel)

The Royal Navy begin the laying of anti-U-boat mine barrages in the Eastern Channel. These fields would pay dividends over the course of the next month (more to follow on this)…..


23rd – 30th September 1939 (The Atlantic)

So we know what the U-boats were doing during this first month of the war, their successes and their losses (see posts 34 (Atlantic) and 41 (North Sea)). What about the two raiders that the Germans had sent out during August to wage war in the Allied sea lanes? At this stage, almost three weeks into the war, Hitler had still not authorised the two Panzerschiffe to commence attacks against Allied merchant vessels. The ships were just consuming supplies to no good purpose and the morale of the crews was suffering.

On the 23rd September Admiral Raeder visited Hitler to spell this out and to try and persuade him to change his mind. Raeder obviously made his case, for three days later the order went out to Captains Wenneker and Langsdorff, aboard Deutschland and Graf Spee respectively, to commence hostilities (although the restrictions mentioned previously concerning the French, and which hampered the U-boat arm, were to remain in place). Similarly there was great care to be taken to not antagonise the US and so no action could be initiated within President Roosevelt’s Pan-American neutrality zone which spread 600 miles into the Atlantic.

The first vessel to claim a victim was the Graf See. Langsdorff had been given an operational area on the South America-Cape Verdes-Biscay trade route. A secondary area was outlined as the South and Central Atlantic, the Cape Town-Cape Verdes route and the Southern Indian Ocean. However, Graf Spee’s captain was the ultimate arbiter of where he took his ship in order to best carry out his commerce raiding activity and to avoid fights with enemy naval vessels.

Having taken up station, Graf Spee managed to remain undetected by enemy forces. He had some idea where the Royal Navy units were – although information on the capital ships was far from clear. He decided to begin operations off the Brazilian coast and then to move east to attack the Cape route. At noon on the 30th September, Graf Spee came across the 5,500 ton Booth Line steamer SS Clement (Captain Harris). Langsdorff ordered the British captain to stop his ship, which he did, but not before Harris had ensured that all important papers were destroyed and the distress signal had been sent out. For good measure her engines were wrecked to ensure she could not be taken as a prize. Langsdorff took the captain and Chief Engineer aboard Graf Spee and told the sailors in the lifeboats which way to head. He then contacted the local radio station to alert them to the lifeboats. The message was signed Admiral Scheer in order to create confusion amongst the British. After expending no less than two torpedoes (which missed), twenty-five 5.9-inch and five 11-inch shells, the Clement was finally despatched to the bottom of the ocean and Graf Spee sailed east for the Cape route……..

As we shall see, Deutschland and Graf Spee were to have very different experiences over the coming months and were to meet with very different ends.

Faster than any more powerful vessel, more powerful than any faster vessel – or so the original design philosophy went. Even at the time of Graf Spee’s construction the Royal Navy had three battlecruisers that defeated that objective – and the French were soon to lay down two faster, and better armed and armoured ships of the Dunkerque-class. No further Panzerschiffe would be ordered after the original three ships. The 28-knot Panzerschiffe had six 11-inch guns mounted in two turrets – and with armour no greater than that of contemporary cruisers.



SS Clement was the first of Graf Spee’s nine victims.



Sources:
Purnell’s History of the Second World War
The Gathering Storm (Geirr H Haarr)
The Price of Disobedience (Eric Grove)
The Real Cruel Sea (Richard Woodman)

Faster than any more powerful vessel, more powerful than any faster vessel – or so the original design philosophy went. Even at the time of Graf Spee’s construction the Royal Navy had three battlecruisers that defeated that objective – and the French were soon to lay down two faster, and better armed and armoured ships of the Dunkerque-class. No further Panzerschiffe would be ordered after the original three ships. The 28-knot Panzerschiffe had six 11-inch guns mounted in two turrets

The "pocket battleships" were indeed an interesting design. (Columnist George Will made a gaffe a few years back claiming that they were the result of the 35,000-ton Washington Treaty limit on battleships, and that therefore the treaty had been ineffective.) The fact that they had diesel propulsion was also a departure from standard naval practice, and may well have contributed to the end of Graf Spee. But yes, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Welcome back. I was worried that this excellent thread might have gone on hiatus.

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

Faster than any more powerful vessel, more powerful than any faster vessel – or so the original design philosophy went. Even at the time of Graf Spee’s construction the Royal Navy had three battlecruisers that defeated that objective – and the French were soon to lay down two faster, and better armed and armoured ships of the Dunkerque-class. No further Panzerschiffe would be ordered after the original three ships. The 28-knot Panzerschiffe had six 11-inch guns mounted in two turrets

The "pocket battleships" were indeed an interesting design. (Columnist George Will made a gaffe a few years back claiming that they were the result of the 35,000-ton Washington Treaty limit on battleships, and that therefore the treaty had been ineffective.) The fact that they had diesel propulsion was also a departure from standard naval practice, and may well have contributed to the end of Graf Spee. But yes, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Welcome back. I was worried that this excellent thread might have gone on hiatus.

warspite1

Well I don't know who George Will is but with a comment like that I hope he is not a naval historian!! [X(]

EDIT: This is not the first time I have seen comment on Graf Spee (and the Germans in general) being subject to the Washington Treaty. As battles and campaigns come up I will do a brief synopsis of the ships involved I think, starting with the Panzerschiffe....

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

Faster than any more powerful vessel, more powerful than any faster vessel – or so the original design philosophy went. Even at the time of Graf Spee’s construction the Royal Navy had three battlecruisers that defeated that objective – and the French were soon to lay down two faster, and better armed and armoured ships of the Dunkerque-class. No further Panzerschiffe would be ordered after the original three ships. The 28-knot Panzerschiffe had six 11-inch guns mounted in two turrets

The "pocket battleships" were indeed an interesting design. (Columnist George Will made a gaffe a few years back claiming that they were the result of the 35,000-ton Washington Treaty limit on battleships, and that therefore the treaty had been ineffective.) The fact that they had diesel propulsion was also a departure from standard naval practice, and may well have contributed to the end of Graf Spee. But yes, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Welcome back. I was worried that this excellent thread might have gone on hiatus.

warspite1

Well I don't know who George Will is but with a comment like that I hope he is not a naval historian!! [X(]

He isn't. He's a political columnist.

BTW, thanks for the above. Turns out "End of Glory.." and the one I have are written by the same guy.

Kriegsmarine. Deutschland-class panzerschiffe

Deutschland - Commissioned April 1933
Admiral Scheer - Commissioned November 1934
Admiral Graf Spee - Commissioned January 1936

Following the end of the First World War the German Navy (the Reichsmarine) was restricted to eight pre-dreadnought battleships (of which at least two were to be in reserve at any one time), six light cruisers, twelve destroyers and twelve torpedo boats.

The pre-dreadnoughts could only be replaced once they were at least 20 years old and furthermore, a restriction of 10,000 tons was placed on any replacement vessel. This ensured, or so it was thought, that the Germans could only ever build coastal battleship-type vessels. The Reichmarine was essentially to be restricted to coastal defence, fishery protection and border patrol type duties.

Germany was not invited to join the Washington Naval Limitation Conference – there was simply no need given that the Reichmarine’s make-up had effectively been laid out. Due to their age, Germany could, in theory, have begun the process of replacing her pre-dreadnoughts pretty much straightaway, but thanks to the Great Depression, there was no money available to build new ships. Only at the end of the twenties did the first of the three initial replacement vessels get laid down.

So what type of warship did the Germans decide upon? The navy was not interested in coastal defence battleships. The design actually agreed upon was, at the time, considered revolutionary. These were the Deutschland-class Panzerschiffe. Note: all three ships were finished to slightly different specifications and trying to get two sources to agree on many of the details is almost impossible. Whether it be the number of aircraft carried, the number and type of light AA, the size of torpedoes or even the belt thickness! – there are always variances. The below should be read with that in mind.

The ships were designed for commerce raiding and so it was important that they be either able to out fight or out run potential adversaries. To that end their main armament (11-inch) was heavier than a treaty cruiser (8-inch) and they were capable of 28 knots (faster than all existing capital ships except the three Royal Navy battlecruisers Hood, Renown and Repulse). Their diesel engines gave them a superb range of 16,000 nautical miles at 18 knots and (importantly given their role) smoke emissions were less visible than the norm, although reliability proved to be an issue. Unsurprisingly this hitting power combined with this speed came at a price and these ships, which comfortably exceeded the 10,000 ton maximum weight as it was, sacrificed armour to compensate.

The secondary armament consisted of eight 5.9-inch guns in single mounts with only splinter shield protection. In the absence of a dual-purpose gun, a separate anti-aircraft defence was provided by three twin 3.5-inch mounts (replaced with 4.1-inch guns on Graf Spee before the war) backed up by four twin 37mm and a variable number of 20mm guns. They had a catapult fitted to operate a reconnaissance aircraft. Their defensive armour was similar to contemporary light cruisers, although turrets and barbettes were more strongly protected.

Seakeeping was not great due to the design being overloaded and the ships were not great gun platforms. In addition, the fact that their main armament was housed in just two turrets meant that taking on more than two adversaries was impossible and even if just one, this was sub-optimal for her gunnery control equipment. They were designed to fight one enemy using all six main guns (while their secondary battery could fire at a separate target (if applicable)). Graf Spee was fitted with Seetakt - the world's first naval radar. Designed for use in rangefinding, it did not have the required bearing accuracy for such and was used instead for surveillance of the sea area and was thus best employed in poor weather or at night.

Later in the war the two surviving ships - Deutschland (now re-named Lutzow) and Admiral Scheer - were re-designated heavy cruisers. The Admiral Scheer was to prove the most successful of all the Kriegsmarine surface raiders - although in terms of overall tonnage sunk, the contribution of the surface fleet was negligible.



The three sisters were to have been a class of eight, but the emergence of the French Dunkerque-class ended that idea….



Sources:
German Capital Ships of the Second World War (Siegfried Breyer and Miroslaw Skwiot)
The Price of Disobedience (Eric Grove)

4th October – 3rd November 1939 (The U-boat war – The English Channel, North Sea and the Atlantic)

One kill missing from post 41 (missed the cut-off date by one day) was that of Otto Kretschmer in U-23, who sank a small British merchant of less than 1,000 tons and so is included in the numbers here.

The mine barrage laid in the English Channel (see Post 84) began to pay dividends for the British when U-12 (Kapt. Dietrich von der Ropp) blew up trying to traverse the Channel on the 8th October. There were no survivors. Donitz did not believe the sinking due to mines and was to pay the price later in the month.

With no reinforcements likely for some time, Donitz deployed his U-boats as best he could to try and achieve maximum effect. By now the British had their convoy system properly up and running and Donitz plan was to counter these convoys with “wolfpacks”.

Donitz had the advantage of knowing a good deal about British maritime traffic thanks to the B-dienst code-breaking unit having broken both the Royal Navy’s operational codes and that of the merchant marine.

For various reasons, Donitz had only six ocean-going boats available to form the first wolfpack. This consisted of three type VIIB’s (U-45, U-46 and U-48) and three type IX’s (U-37, U-40 and U-42) commanded at sea by Werner Hartmann (U-37). Five of these boats sailed for the Atlantic around the north of the British Isles, but U-40 (Kapt. Wolfgang Barten) sailed for the Channel…. and, on the 13th October, went straight into the mine barrage that had claimed U-12. Three sailors were rescued by British destroyers.

On the same day the U-42 (Kapt. Rolf Dau) on the boat’s first patrol was also sunk. Dau attacked the 5,000 ton freighter Stonepool on the surface and managed to lightly damage her, but the merchant ship had fired back and given time for two destroyers HMS Imogen and HMS Ilex to arrive on the scene. The two RN vessels undertook a determined depth charge attack, bringing U-42 to the surface. The U-boat was badly damaged and she began to sink almost immediately. Seventeen men, including Dau, were rescued.


I-class destroyer HMS Imogen claimed two U-boats in her brief life. She was lost in a collision with the Town-class cruiser Glasgow in July 1940 in thick fog.



Meanwhile B-dienst had alerted Donitz to convoy KJF3 sailing from Kingston, Jamaica. There was no chance of a proper wolfpack attack – two boats were already lost and others were too far away. However two boats – U-45 and U-48 – did locate the convoy independently and went onto the attack. U-45 (Kapt. Alexander Gelhaar) sunk two vessels, one of which was a 10,000 ton French passenger liner, the Bretagne. She was sailing blacked out but under the latest rules of engagement, Gelhaar should not have attacked her. However for Gelhaar and his crew there was to be no awkward explanations to Donitz. U-45 was set upon by four RN destroyers, Icarus, Inglefield, Intrepid and Ivanhoe. U-45 disappeared without trace shortly after. U-48 (Kapt. Herbert Schultze) meanwhile was having more success, despatching four ships – two French and two British. At this time Hitler ordered a change of rules: all French and British ships (except passenger liners) were no longer bound by the Submarine Protocol and the safety of merchant mariners was no longer the U-boats responsibility.

Donitz then ordered his boats south to attack convoy HG3 sailing from Gibraltar to the UK. U-45 added a further vessel to her tally, and U-46 (Kapt. Herbert Sohler) claimed her first kill of the patrol. Hartmann in U-37, which had sunk three ships so far, claimed another. Donitz recalled his boats and on the return journey Hartmann increased his scorecard to eight ships.


Werner Hartmann. Awareded the Knights Cross on 9th May 1940. His final “score” was 26 ships sunk with a tonnage of 115,337 GRT. He survived the war.



Four other boats were tasked with operations in the Atlantic during October. Only the U-34 (Kapt. Wilhelm Rollman) was to achieve any success, sinking four ships during the month.

Minefields were laid by four boats in October with mixed results. Those that were successful were not to be realised until later – and this included one prize Royal Navy scalp that will be revealed shortly. One boat was lost, that of U16 (Kapt. Horst Wellner) with all hands, while laying mines in the English Channel. Her field sunk a small French vessel in return. U-16 was the third U-boat lost to the mine barrage laid the previous month (although one source has this boat falling victim to an ASW attack).

The Duck U-59 (Kapt. Harald Jurst) sunk three small British vessels whilst returning from patrol at the end of the month. U-boat.net records her fellow Duck, U-13 (Kapt. Karl Daublebsky von Eichhain) as sinking a 4,600 ton British vessel also at the end of the month but I cannot get a second confirmation of that. This "kill" is included in the records below.

Once again Donitz was dismayed to receive regular reports from his U-boats commanders of torpedoes prematurely exploding or other malfunctions. If Donitz was dismayed, one can only wonder what the poor submariners felt……

Summary for the period (not including mines laid the previous month).
U-boat, type, ships sunk

U-13 (Type IIB) – (1) Cairnmona (30th)
U-16 (Type IIB) – (1) Ste Claire (fell victim in November to a mine laid by U-16)
U-23 (Type IIB) – (1) Glen Farg (4th)
U-34 (Type VII) – (4) Gustaf Adolf, Sea Venture (20th) Bronte (27th) Malabar (29th)
U-37 (Type IX) – (8) Vistula (8th), Aris (12th) Vermont (15th) Yorkshire (17th) Menin Ridge, Ledbury, Tafna (24th) Thrasyvoulos (30th)
U-45 (Type VIIB) – (2) Lochavon, Bretagne (14th)
U-46 (Type VIIB) – (1) City of Mandalay (17th)
U-48 (Type VIIB) – (5) Emile Miguet (12th) Heronspool, Louisiane (13th) Sneaton (14th) Clan Chisholm (17th)
U-59 (Type IIC) – (3) St Nidan, Lynx II (28th) HMS Northern Rover (30th)

Total – 26 ships with a tonnage of 122,414

The above was achieved at a cost of four boats sunk:

U-16
U-40
U-42
U-45

There is one U-boat kill missing from this list and the story is coming up next….

Source:
Hitler’s U-boat War Volume I (Clay Blair)
Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-45 (Jurgen Rohwer)
www.uboat.net

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Now that Capt Harlock's brilliant Civil War thread has come to an end, is there any enthusiasm for a day by day on another topic?

I would be happy to do such for the naval war 1939-45 if there is interest?

Robert, I really like your "Naval War Day-by-Day", you are doing a fantastic job! [&o] What source(s) are you using? You don't have to give it all away, just in general...thanks!

Patrick

ORIGINAL: wings7

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Now that Capt Harlock's brilliant Civil War thread has come to an end, is there any enthusiasm for a day by day on another topic?

I would be happy to do such for the naval war 1939-45 if there is interest?

Robert, I really like your "Naval War Day-by-Day", you are doing a fantastic job! [&o] What source(s) are you using? You don't have to give it all away, just in general...thanks!

Patrick

warspite1

Hi Patrick the sources are given at the bottom of each post (where applicable).

Awesome effort here Warspite! Do you plan on catching up to the current date and maintain? If so you sure do have a lot of work ahead of you! Thanks for putting this together sir [8D]

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Awesome effort here Warspite! Do you plan on catching up to the current date and maintain? If so you sure do have a lot of work ahead of you! Thanks for putting this together sir [8D]

warspite1

Hi CarnageINC - no the plan is just to plough on. The problem is that I am unlikely to be able to keep to each day because of the sheer number of daily happenings as the war progresses - and certainly when the USN and IJN get in on the act!

Warspite [:-] Don't you know your suppose to quit your day job and slavishly work at this thread and give us the absolutly most detail epic report of the naval war! Damit man, I want to know round counts and fuel usage! [:@]

Royal Navy. Royal Sovereign-class Battleships

Royal Sovereign – Commissioned April 1916
Royal Oak – Commissioned May 1916
Revenge – Commissioned March 1916
Resolution – Commissioned December 1916
Ramillies – Commissioned May 1917

The Royal Sovereigns were a class of five battleships laid down between November 1913 and January 1914. They were originally to have numbered eight ships but two, Renown and Repulse, were re-designed as battlecruisers and a third, Resistance, was cancelled prior to being laid down.

They were in many ways a backward step when compared to the “fast” battleships of the preceding Queen Elizabeth-class. The Royal Navy did not want to sacrifice armour nor compromise on the excellent 15-inch gun. But if costs were to be contained, this meant that savings would have to come from the speed of the vessels. The Royal Sovereigns were therefore limited to 21-knots – in keeping with the majority of the battlefleet of the time, but a problem for the future.

The ships main armament was the excellent 15-inch gun with eight of these fitted in four twin turrets. Secondary armament was provided by fourteen single 6-inch guns, twelve of which were in casemates. As befitting the times, only cursory acknowledgement of a possible threat from the air resulted in two 3-inch guns being fitted.

Defensive armour was similar to the Queen Elizabeths with the belt and turret armour a maximum of 13-inches thick. Barbettes were 10-inches maximum. Deck armour was more than adequate for the time but by 1939 was insufficient to keep pace with the growing threat from the air and the threat from plunging shell fire. Torpedo bulges were added either during construction or before the end of the First World War to all ships, and indeed they had torpedoes of their own – 4 x 21-inch submerged torpedo tubes.

They were originally to be powered by coal, but a late switch was made to ensure they became oil-burning instead. Unusually for the time, these elegant ships had but one funnel which gave them a distinctive look amongst the battleships of the day.

During the inter-war years each of the ships had varying levels of modifications; all ships had increased anti-aircraft weaponry added (8 x 4-inch guns in twin mounts, 16 x 2pdr pom-poms and 8 x 0.5-inch MG) – and Royal Oak received some additional armour, but none were properly modernised – there was simply not the money available and the original design layout made any proper re-build more difficult and costly than that for the Queen Elizabeth’s. As a result, the Royal Sovereign’s would go into the Second World War largely unchanged from their original design.

By 1939 the lack of top speed was a major problem for the class and they were largely relegated to convoy duty and backwater theatres. When Italy entered the war, two of the class saw action in the Mediterranean, but their inability to keep up with other capital ships meant that they were more of a liability than a help. The surviving members of the class were gradually sent to reserve from 1943 onwards, and one ship – HMS Royal Sovereign – was transferred to the Soviet Navy in 1944 with whom she served as the Archangelsk.


The Royal Sovereigns have a bad press nowadays. But they were not at all bad ships themselves. They were just fighting the wrong war….



The Royal Sovereigns were excellent gun platforms and had excellent handling and manoeuvrability (but did tend to roll more than they were designed to).



The power of a broadside from the excellent 15-inch gun. Sadly the lack of money for inter-war modifications meant that none of the ships even had their elevation increased to improve range by 1939.




Sources:
British Battleships 1919-1945 (RA Burt)
HMS Royal Sovereign and her sister ships (Peter C Smith)

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Warspite [:-] Don't you know your suppose to quit your day job and slavishly work at this thread and give us the absolutly most detail epic report of the naval war! Damit man, I want to know round counts and fuel usage! [:@]

warspite1

Soz..... [:D]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Warspite [:-] Don't you know your suppose to quit your day job and slavishly work at this thread and give us the absolutly most detail epic report of the naval war! Damit man, I want to know round counts and fuel usage! [:@]

warspite1

Soz..... [:D]

I'm starting a KickStarter for you, Warspite [:D]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Warspite [:-] Don't you know your suppose to quit your day job and slavishly work at this thread and give us the absolutly most detail epic report of the naval war! Damit man, I want to know round counts and fuel usage! [:@]

warspite1

Soz..... [:D]

I'm starting a KickStarter for you, Warspite [:D]

warspite1

Not much of a game this though is it? [:D]

R class battleships. Pic taken from HMS Royal Oak.

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

R class battleships. Pic taken from HMS Royal Oak.

warspite1

[X(]

That is one absolutely cracking picture!!!!!

From the source, do you have the detail of which is which per chance? They look too similar to distinguish.