Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: MikeMarchant_ssl

Generally military forces will learn all this stuff on the training ground long before they see a battle.


Best Wishes

Mike

True.
I wish all the young Engineers I work with could take their book training and apply it to the real day to day
world of Fire Protection without screwing the pooch for years before they learn how to apply it [:D]

I believe that for most of the ASL players, including me, those numbers, charts and tables were part of the fun.
To decide whether to risk taking that shot, to turn that corner, based on the actual values of that unit was part of the fun as well.
Now if this game claim to be inspired from ASL, stripping it from one of the ASL main features seems quite odd, after all this is
now the only wargame I now of, without any data/info on the units.
If every other wargame on the planet uses them, maybe there is a reason.
Anyhow against my best judgement, I ended up buying this game for support hoping that along the way things might improve, but
I have the feeling that the devs really don't like numbers.....
Having countless wargames on my hard drive, this is the most regrettable purchase so far.

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

ORIGINAL: Monkie

Interesting discussion and how we each approach a "wargame". I always looked at the numbers on the counters as simply being the system by which results were obtained, either you created a result against your target or you didn't.

Never did I look at the numbers on the counter and think "Well my 76L has a 23% chance to hit if I drive it within 5 hexes of the side armor facing of the Panther giving me a 44.5% chance of penetrating hit... etc etc" I always looked at it as "I need to get a flank shot at that Panther so my infantry have a fighting chance of stopping this attack and if not Sgt.Johnson's squad is in big trouble in the village".

I see gaming as a historical narrative as opposed to a chess game with winning moves and absolutes. I guess that is why I never got into the scenario challenges in the old General magazine from AH.

Yes, this how I look at it was well...the historical narrative is what I was looking for.

Most ASL'ers aren't going to like this game. It's lacks a major portion of why we like ASL.
I'm not saying it's a bad game at all. It's just too simple and doesn't give the ASL-type wargamer the information needed to enjoy the historical narrative as envisioned by the developers. The fact that all these ASL mods (I get confused as thew which ASL mod is which) came out right away should say something....

Still, great job and obviously tons of time and hard work went into it.

LOL! From a Squad Leader player from 1977, this reminds me of the old days of SL vs ASL [:)] Some ASL'ers just make me laugh [:D]

One thing that seems to be over looked is that TotH may bring PC gamer's to ASL board games and the enjoyment of pushing cardboard counters around face to face with a human [;)]

true enough Richie61.

the "problem" with this game is that it is almost a great game that it leaves me, and perhaps others, feeling like "man, why didn't they go for more?"

The developers speak of historical narrative over and against "spreadsheets and tables and %'s" but for SOME people, not all, that "immersion" comes from the desire to make plans according to data we can interpret, not data that is "hidden." The lack of information here is unfortunate.

ORIGINAL: Richie61
One thing that seems to be over looked is that TotH may bring PC gamer's to ASL board games and the enjoyment of pushing cardboard counters around face to face with a human [;)]

Absolutely has for me. Yanks 2 is on pre-order!

ORIGINAL: kylania

ORIGINAL: Richie61
One thing that seems to be over looked is that TotH may bring PC gamer's to ASL board games and the enjoyment of pushing cardboard counters around face to face with a human [;)]

Absolutely has for me. Yanks 2 is on pre-order!

Very cool!

Old School Tactical here. Waiting for the box set now.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/170 ... l-tactical

I have two boys to play board games with now. Panzer, Valor & Victory, Band of Brothers, Combat Commander, etc.
I tried SL and ASL, but they didn't care for them [&:] Said the games were too complex and had too much details that took away from the tactical fun part of playing.

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

Rebel,

Seriously, as one Missourian to another, I tend to share your concerns. I'm reviewing TotH so you may want to wait for my piece.

Jim - please let us know when your review is available. I respect your insight, and have all the same concerns about lack of information that lots of folks have.

Is the fixed A-H fire power affected when firing in good order at an adjacent enemy?

Doubled for adjacent I believe.

Unlike almost every other game I've bought from Matrix, the mechanics, counters, movement, etc., were clearly shown in a detailed series of streams and videos. Full disclosure, so buyer beware.

Fortunately, I have no idea what "Is the fixed A-H fire power affected when firing in good order at an adjacent enemy?" Nor do I care. I also like creating scenarios and experimenting with tactical situations, so knew this game was for me.

I agree if a full-info counter patch or mod can be made, it should be, unless there are copyright issues. The ASL mod is pretty darn good, so far.

Good luck Bismarck with the review. I do not envy you!

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

This discussion confirms my long-time suspicion that two types of people play wargames:

1. gamers

2. combat accountants.

You forgot

3.Accountable Combative Gamers

I'm #1 on that list

nvm

I seldom post on these fora, but now I feel forced to do it, because I'm among those who bought TotH on impulse, and now I'm deeply regretting it.

I won't enter into details, even if discovering that the values hidden "because they are not important" can actually be discovered via the ASL counters is, to say the least, worrying.

No, I'll simply point out two things:

- First: experience. Sorry, but "learning with trial" doesn't hold water. Some scenario either do or will portray veteran troops: people who learned the capabilities of their and enemy soldiers, vehicles, artillery et. al. via the crucible of war. I can't imagine that ALL the paratroopers launched in Normandy, or ALL the tank crews who fought at Kursk were "green" (also because either they actually are, and so their morale would break easily, or they have good morale... and thus, where the heck they learned how to fight??)

Just to be clear, I'll mention a scenario: Elst.

Also, to justify this choice by talking about a "narrative experience" has no meaning. A tank commander knows the capability of his tank. A King Tiger crew doesn't discover that his tank moves like a turtle only the very moment it engages the enemy for the first time. A Tiger commander doesn't seek cover when an M3 half-track appears just because "you can never know". Actually, even if you know that your Tiger has possibility of 42% to penetrate the side armour of a T-34 at a certain distance, this is not a deterministic value BY FAR: it simply symbolises what is the perception of the situation by the crew, based on experience. Then, like in many wargames and PC wargames, practical results can move away from the average. CRTs were born for this very reason.

Speaking about ASL, my son told me about the "rule of 7" (I played SL in the '80s but not much: now I plan to re-start with the starter kits). The rule of 7 says that since in ASL you usually roll two dice, 7 is the most common result, with 6 and 8 as the second common. So, when you plan an attack, consider that your experience on the field tells you that "a result around 7" is what can happen. But then when things get moving what really happens is in the lap of the Gods: easy shots fail, tank guns jam, concealing smoke fails to ignite... and maybe your squad running in the open under fire, while praying and praying, actually reaches a safe spot thanks to an incredible streak of bad rolls from the enemy.

Now. This sounds the perfect mix between troop experience, excitement, and, yes, narrative.

- Second: what is even more amazing is how every squad/platoon level game I played on the PC gives you basic info about fire range, movement and LOS via a simple hotkey or a button since the mid '90s (20 years ago!): Panthers in the Shadows, Steel Panthers, John Tiller Campaign Series... And each and every one of these games also gives you the relevant data about your units. Be assured that, over the years, I had many exciting moments with them.

Case in point, JTCS does seem to me the most closest example of what TotH should have done: not only movement, LOS and range of fire are all one hotkey away, but it even includes a fast method for selecting only the relevant units in a stack. you click on the whole stack, and, in a sidebar, select only the one you want to act with.

Just to underline again what I mean, I'm talking about an UI created in 1998, recently upgraded by this very company, and used for a new platoon-level game about the Arab-Israeli Wars. But a game "ten years in development" somehow missed what happened during the last twenty.

I'm sorry, but given both the above and, I'm sorry to say, the discovery that every time you actually look under the hood you find another ASL value "ported" to TotH... well, my nostrils are filled with a smell of fish. Or, at the very least, of amateurism (we really have to input the hex coordinates to check LOS? like in an Apple II?!)

I hope to be proved wrong. What I do not hope is to be proved wrong via paid expansions: I had the money either for this or for the new DC: Barbarossa (or even, ironically, for ASLSK #3). Fine: I rolled the dice, and I got a bad result. Next time I'll plan better.

Edited for typos.

the above post is right on. (DC:Barbarossa is a good game, with "decisions" being ass important as military tactics. If you haven't already, check out CO2 and Schwerpunkt WWiiE, great games.)

I went back and tried to figure out why I was so disappointed. I played 10-12 scenarios in the first day or two thinking, "it MUST get better," "maybe the next scenario will be different" "I SIMPLY HAVE to be missing some feature because it can't really be like this." But no.

Then I looked again at the advertisement for TotH and it dawned on me,

Three difficulty levels with varying levels of command and control implementation.
A dynamic AI which never reacts the same way twice to a player’s plan. Scenario designers need only designate the AI as an attacker or defender and the game engine will do the rest!
Tigers on the Hunt uses Fog of War; if a unit doesn’t have LOS to any enemy unit(s) it will not be able to see or engage the enemy unit(s). LOS is detailed, down to a pixel level.
Statistics: objectives, casualties, outcome of the scenario.
Create any tactical situation in World War II with a full suite of editors:
a. Map editor

b. OOB Editor

c. Campaign Editor

Battle it out in virtually any engagement on the Western/Eastern/Mediterranean Front using detailed American, German, Russian and British armies.
A massive library of units:
a. All German/Russian/American/British Infantry Units: Squads, Half-Squads, Leaders and Crew


b. 40 Support Weapons (LMG, MMG, HMG, DC, FT, PSK, PF, ATR, PIAT, Molotov Projector, Radio, Bazooka, Light MTR)

c. 95 Ordnance (Mortars, Anti-Tank Guns, Anti-Aircraft Guns, Artillery)

d. 162 Vehicles (Light/Medium/Heavy Tanks, Tank Destroyers, Assault Guns, Armoured Cars, Half-Tracks)

e. 28 Off Board Artillery Pieces including Mortar/Howitzer/Rocket

Use the myriad units in small as well as massive battles which support up to: 200 Infantry units, 100 Support Weapons, 100 Ordnance pieces and 50 Vehicles per side.
Scenario sizes can range from small and intense to massive and grand (up to 97 x 40 hexes)
Campaigns (really just a long scenario) last up to 504 turns - roughly about 2 months of combat (8 turns per day + 4 turns in the night).
Scenario difficulty can be: Easy, Normal and Hard. The difficulty is associated with Command & Control rules. Easy means human player always have command over all its units. Normal difficulty - Normal Command & Control rules are used. Hard - tougher Command & Control difficulty rules are used.
Scenario/OOB/map editor, maps can be created by painting each hex individually or a whole map can imported by loading templates that come with the game. The scenario editor supports 12 maps put together. 4 maps in a row and 3 maps in a column. You can assign each map to each sector or you can allow the computer to randomly import the map templates to make the overall scenario/campaign map random.


all the stuff that got my attention was in the editor program. And to be fair, nowhere does it say "complete with unit information, ToE, and tools so that a gamer can know what's going on."

Perelandra67, I hope I can help, here is what I found, if you goto mods and scenarios and download JMass VASL mod for TotH, you will find an ASL type game, the AFVs Tanks etc... have the correct Movement points on the chits eg: 1 point to start engine, 1 point to change direction and 1 point to move a hex on clear ground, you can check this on a blank map with a tank. the infantry move correctly for ASL 4 hexes plus 2 with a leader, plus one if you start and stop on a road, plus 2 double time, the legged units in ASL have 3 numbers FIRE POWER,FIRE RANGE,MORAL, the mod takes the A to H fire-power and converts it to ASL for you, you can check range of fire with the menu to show range, moral is stars converted to ASL.

what all this means is the Mod counters have meaningfull numbers on the chits, you can go to the vassalegine site and download the ASL module(rename it with a zip extention and unzip it) it has all the ASL charts.

Speaking about ASL, my son told me about the "rule of 7" (I played SL in the '80s but not much: now I plan to re-start with the starter kits). The rule of 7 says that since in ASL you usually roll two dice, 7 is the most common result, with 6 and 8 as the second common. So, when you plan an attack, consider that your experience on the field tells you that "a result around 7" is what can happen.

The "rule of 7" in ASL is not in the rulebook, it is one a player learns how it works through experience.

I think that the laments about not knowing the data are misplaced. After just a few playings you will get a feel of what the units can or cannot do.

Someone either in this thread or another commented something like "combat leaders will know how farther units will go in two minute." We, no because you don't think that way in the field. (I was an infantry officer and commanded a rifle company twice). You think this way: LT, have your platoon take that machine nest out in that house; get moving in 10 minutes. Company mortars will support you." As to numbers, you think in terms of units and the basic 3-1 combat ratio rule of thumb. You have an enemy squad to attack, you send three squads to do it. Or two squads and two company machine guns in support and so on. And you know how your weapons will affect things. Now any wargamer worth his salt knows the basics of WWII weapons and will know that you need to bring up the MMGs to suppress the Bad Guys in the stone building down the street.

As to counting movement points. It appears to me that the designer wanted to get away from hex counting. For example, in ASL I see over and over, and do it myself from time to time, the guy counting out the MPs when trying to figure out where his Sherman will go: " 10, 12, 13... dammit, I don't have enough to stop. Well maybe here 1, 2, 3, 4...10, turn tca, turn VCA, 11,12, 13..damn, can't go there either." Ugh, this is the stuff that makes ASL tedious and unrealistic because you the player are the PL telling that tank commander to get his ass down the street to shoot at the enemy in the fortified house. Just move the damn thing and stop trying to figure out the most optimal hex. Now TotH takes that away. You have to just start moving and figure out what you want to do when you get near the position. Do you risk further moves etc? (There is some sort of trepidation when you make a long tank move in this game) which is somewhat of a fog of war when you think about it. And BTW, it really is unrealistic that tanks will move top speed back forth across the map because in real combat, when enemy contact is imminent, they move quit deliberatively.

If you read the replays of ASL scenario plays from early in its history, you find that the designers intended the game to be played fast, the charts and stuff were merely to resolve actions, not used as planning tools.

I find it refreshing that the designers of this game are trying to break the mold of "wargaming for engineers" as I call the math loving games, and force players into thinking purely tactically. break the data chains my friends, just start playing and you find the TotH is quite enjoyable without numbers.

ORIGINAL: Perelandra67
And to be fair, nowhere does it say "complete with unit information, ToE, and tools so that a gamer can know what's going on."

That's because basic unit information is such a core concept that no one could imagine not having access to it. It's as if you went to buy a car and all you were told about it was "it has the proper amount of doors and goes as fast as you'd expect".

"The cardboard AFV is not what it was when SL rolled out the door. I share your sorrow that things weren't perfect the first time around. However, as an engineer, I'm not surprised by this-just as I'm not surprised that Wilbur and Orville failed to build a Piper Cub."

This is what Mr. Medrow wrote in The General vol. 23, no 2 when he introduced the AFV counters of ASL. Why don 't have some of the hard core ASL player the same attitude towards this game? It is very early and nothing is in stone. It took 30 years to come up with this and give it another 2-3 years and it will be even better than it is already.
It also should be very easy to come up with a combat value and movement sheet, just copy ASL.

Have a great day!
Dietrich

This is what Mr. Medrow wrote in The General vol. 23, no 2 when he introduced the AFV counters of ASL. Why don 't have some of the hard core ASL player the same attitude towards this game? It is very early and nothing is in stone. It took 30 years to come up with this and give it another 2-3 years and it will be even better than it is already.
It also should be very easy to come up with a combat value and movement sheet, just copy ASL.

Yep... good post.

BTW, the data sheet that everyone wants might actually make the game more expensive. Have you seen how big Chapter H is from ASL? And that only covers vehicles and Ordnance Weapons.