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ORIGINAL: warspite1
..... I think that undoubtedly Joe 'Paranoid' Stalin was thinking that the Western Allies would be hoping they would slug it out with the Germans. Funny old game though isn't it? Stalin's actions made his thoughts a self-fulfilling prophecy. #carefulwhatyouwishforschmuck [:D]

Well, Mein Kampf was clear on this one (the lebensraum in the east). Uncle Joe was doomed yes or yes. If anything, it's the western democracies that could not see that coming [:)]

In the end, we get the weirdest couple ever: the arch-reactionary Churchill and the machivellian seminarian from Tiflis, Stalin.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
#carefulwhatyouwishforschmuck [:D]

Jennifer Lawrence...Jennifer Lawrence...Jennifer Lawrence...

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1
..... I think that undoubtedly Joe 'Paranoid' Stalin was thinking that the Western Allies would be hoping they would slug it out with the Germans. Funny old game though isn't it? Stalin's actions made his thoughts a self-fulfilling prophecy. #carefulwhatyouwishforschmuck [:D]

Well, Mein Kampf was clear on this one (the lebensraum in the east). Uncle Joe was doomed yes or yes. If anything, it's the western democracies that could not see that coming [:)]

In the end, we get the weirdest couple ever: the arch-reactionary Churchill and the machivellian seminarian from Tiflis, Stalin.

warspite1

Really? Maybe but not necessarily (and yes this is all hindsight) but no - had Stalin joined the Western Allies the Germans would have needed to go through Poland first who aren't going to get stabbed in the back. Doomed? I don't think so.

Weirdest couple ever? Again I don't think so. You forget

Hitler and Stalin
Rafe and Danny
Kim and Kanye

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1
..... I think that undoubtedly Joe 'Paranoid' Stalin was thinking that the Western Allies would be hoping they would slug it out with the Germans. Funny old game though isn't it? Stalin's actions made his thoughts a self-fulfilling prophecy. #carefulwhatyouwishforschmuck [:D]

If anything, it's the western democracies that could not see that coming [:)]

warspite1

Interesting take - no, if anything the German politicians, the German military and half the electorate didn't see that coming - maybe they couldn't read German.....

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: warspite1
#carefulwhatyouwishforschmuck [:D]

Jennifer Lawrence...Jennifer Lawrence...Jennifer Lawrence...

warspite1

Dirrrrty boy!

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Really? Maybe but not necessarily (and yes this is all hinsight) but no - had Stalin joined the Western Allies the Germans would have needed to go through Poland first who aren't going to get stabbed in the back. Doomed? I don't think so.

Even after Hitler striked in Poland, Stalin could see the French and UK were not attacking ie penetrating in Germany. Maginot Line. A paranoid like Stalin could very well think the allies would never leave their fortified lines (oh oh, surprise, what they did). Meanwhile, The Red Army was supposed to fight to the death. And we get to Stalin's nightmare again. Grab popcorn.

Besides, it took some years to figure out how to stop the German war machine. Defense in depth, lots of defensive lines, whole armies heroically left behind to die and kill the invader etc etc. 1941 that is.

Oops, I think we derailed this "tidy ship" thread thing. Which had been previously hijacked too by political stuff [:D]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Really? Maybe but not necessarily (and yes this is all hinsight) but no - had Stalin joined the Western Allies the Germans would have needed to go through Poland first who aren't going to get stabbed in the back. Doomed? I don't think so.

Even after Hitler striked in Poland, Stalin could see the French and UK were not attacking ie penetrating in Germany. Maginot Line. A paranoid like Stalin could very well think the allies would never leave their fortified lines (oh oh, surprise, what they did). Meanwhile, The Red Army was supposed to fight to the death. And we get to Stalin's nightmare again. Grab popcorn.

Besides, it took some years to figure out how to stop the German war machine. Defense in depth, lots of defensive lines, whole armies heroically left behind to die and kill the invader etc etc. 1941 that is.

Oops, I think we derailed this "tidy ship" thread thing. Which had been previously hijacked too by political stuff [:D]

warspite1

But Stalin is making decisions in the summer of 1939 based on the situation in the summer of 1939.

Why was the Red Army supposed to fight to the death? No one knows what happens when Britain, France, Poland and the USSR surround Germany. A coup by the military against Hitler looks favourite at this juncture.......

However, even if not, you cannot ignore what happened in real life. The German army ended the Polish campaign in desperate need of replacing the losses incurred in Poland, the ammunition stocks were very low, numerous defects in operational efficiency had been uncovered.

Without the Soviet stab in the back, the Poles will probably last longer and cause more loss on the Wehrmacht - in short the army that finished off Poland is in no fit state to even think about invading the USSR for a long while.....

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Without the Soviet stab in the back, the Poles will probably last longer and cause more loss on the Wehrmacht - in short the army that finished off Poland is in no fit state to even think about invading the USSR for a long while.....

You cannot blame Stalin for not trusting France and the UK. First, he was swallowing the land that the Poles HAD robbed after the revolution (that's something most Soviet bashers -not you obviously, you know your stuff- totally ignore). Second, he knew the war would be inevitable (a buffer zone, but this was a curse as I had said months ago: non fortified border when the Germans striked in 1941).

Here, to me the stab in the back is the French and British NOT leaving their fortified lines and attack the German rear. They did not help an ally [:'(]

in short the army that finished off Poland is in no fit state to even think about invading the USSR for a long while.....

Nor even turn about and go after the Western Allies as Hitler had wanted. His High Command finally had to convince him as to its infeasibility for the very reasons stated above. And that was with the Soviet 'stab in the back' to Poland.

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Without the Soviet stab in the back, the Poles will probably last longer and cause more loss on the Wehrmacht - in short the army that finished off Poland is in no fit state to even think about invading the USSR for a long while.....

You cannot blame Stalin for not trusting France and the UK. First, he was swallowing the land that the Poles HAD robbed after the revolution (that's something most Soviet bashers -not you obviously, you know your stuff- totally ignore). Second, he knew the war would be inevitable (a buffer zone, but this was a curse as I had said months ago: non fortified border when the Germans striked in 1941).

Here, to me the stab in the back is the French and British NOT leaving their fortified lines and attack the German rear. They did not help an ally [:'(]

warspite1

I don't blame him. He was paranoid, and a hideous murdering psycho, but he was right to treat the Western Allies with caution - shame he didn't show the same level of mis-trust toward Adolf.

The land 'Robbed' post the revolution was once part of a separate Poland-Lithuania state - that had been kicked around, torn up and invaded for over 100 years. I don't think Russia can claim the moral high ground there.

The Soviets stabbed the Poles in the back literally - the Western Allies (and this does not excuse their treatment of the Poles) were in no fit state to launch an offensive into Germany. To suggest they could really doesn't acknowledge quite what a mess the French army was in (and the British didn't exactly help with numbers). Maginot mentality, leaders fighting the last war, etc is not a myth. But lets acknowledge (and I know you know your stuff) realpolitik here - Poland was an ally because that is where the Western governments drew the line in the sand.

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
They did not help an ally [:'(]

Stalin's behind the back dealings with Hitler vis a vis the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and its bloody literal implementation by the Soviets obviate the need for me to feel badly about how things turned out for them. To expect a harried and piecemeal offensive by Allies that you've misled, just to bail you out of an inconvenient jam that you bloody well got yourself into is without merit. Did Stalin not think that secret deal was germane to the 'alliance'? He's fortunate that the Western Allies didn't completely divorce themselves from the Soviet fate after such double-dealing.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Stalin's behind the back dealings with Hitler vis a vis the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and its bloody literal implementation by the Soviets obviate the need for me to feel badly about how things turned out for them. To expect a harried and piecemeal offensive by Allies that you've misled, just to bail you out of an inconvenient jam that you bloody well got yourself into is without merit. Did Stalin not think that secret deal was germane to the 'alliance'? He's fortunate that the Western Allies didn't completely divorce themselves from the Soviet fate after such double-dealing.

You should take it from the start, that of Stalin/Molotov's failed attempts, before the
Ribbentrop/Molotov deal came off, to get Britain and France to join the Soviets in an alliance
to stop Hitler's future plans. The Western powers preferred Hitler. What could Stalin do?

The increased buffer zones offered in that agreement, and those achieved through the
Finnish/Soviet Winter War, probably saved Leningrad and Moscow in 1941.

Fred

ORIGINAL: Leandros

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Stalin's behind the back dealings with Hitler vis a vis the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and its bloody literal implementation by the Soviets obviate the need for me to feel badly about how things turned out for them. To expect a harried and piecemeal offensive by Allies that you've misled, just to bail you out of an inconvenient jam that you bloody well got yourself into is without merit. Did Stalin not think that secret deal was germane to the 'alliance'? He's fortunate that the Western Allies didn't completely divorce themselves from the Soviet fate after such double-dealing.

You should take it from the start, that of Stalin/Molotov's failed attempts, before the
Ribbentrop/Molotov deal came off, to get Britain and France to join the Soviets in an alliance
to stop Hitler's future plans. The Western powers preferred Hitler. What could Stalin do?

The increased buffer zones offered in that agreement, and those achieved through the
Finnish/Soviet Winter War, probably saved Leningrad and Moscow in 1941.

Fred

warspite1

What could Stalin do? He could do what he did and look after no.1 - just as the British and French were looking after number 1. I definitely don't blame Stalin for that (I kind of admire his shrewdness) - although I have a less rosy view of Stalin's MO and I don't seek to excuse his actions given what that meant for Finns, Poles etc.

But I am not really sure where....

The increased buffer zones offered in that agreement, and those achieved through the Finnish/Soviet Winter War, probably saved Leningrad and Moscow in 1941.

...comes from though.

Sounds like something designed to justify Stalin's war of aggression on Finland (and of course the occupation of the Baltic States, Eastern Poland and Bessarabia). BUT if the Soviet Union hadn't invaded Finland, why do you think Finland is going to war with the USSR in 1941? Even after the Winter War in 1939/40 and subsequently Finland getting into bed with Germany, the Finns did not go beyond their original borders when attacking the USSR. So they certainly had no reason to actively seek Moscow's ire by declaring war on them having not been attacked. Thus how does that make Leningrad any more likely to fall - let alone Moscow? Leningrad did not fall of course, and without the N-S pact, I think it would be even less likely - and probably not even placed under siege.

The final version of the border of the Nazi-Soviet pact also played into Germany's hands with the salient around Bialystok ripe for encirclement. Without the pact this does not now happen. Sure the Germans start further east, but enough to make a difference before Moscow? I don't think this stands up to scrutiny given how far short the Wehrmacht came up. Without the alliance, Stalin is less desperate to believe that Germany moving 3 million men east is NOT a sign of impending invasion [8|] Finally, without the pact that is a lot of resources - inc oil - that German don't get access to.

By the same token as Finland, without the NS pact and the annexation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina, why does Romania necessarily join with Germany? Germany has to have that oil and if Romania cannot be persuaded to join the Axis then what? Does Hitler invade? The war is potentially taking a real down turn all of a sudden for Adolf without his N-S pact.

So yes, I understand why Uncle Joe entered into the pact, but No, I don't think the NS pact and all it meant can be justified by the - "the USSR would have lost otherwise" - argument.

ORIGINAL: Leandros
The Western powers preferred Hitler.

I think it's safe to say that the Western powers preferred neither. Their noncommittal actions were consistent with this.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
They did not help an ally [:'(]

Stalin's behind the back dealings with Hitler vis a vis the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and its bloody literal implementation by the Soviets obviate the need for me to feel badly about how things turned out for them.

They got to Berlin, remember?

You seem to think Stalin (or the Soviet people) owed something to France, the UK and the Poles. They owed nothing to them [:'(] And rightly so.

Warspite

Sure the Germans start further east, but enough to make a difference before Moscow? I don't think this stands up to scrutiny given how far short the Wehrmacht came up.

I suggest you to read the operations of Army Group South in Ukraine, where they faced powerful Soviet units in their fortified regions, a thing which didn't happen in Army Group Center area, when the Red Army abandoned the strong fortified positions and occupied the new buffer zone.

A hint: Army Group South was basically spanked and counter-attacked

So yes it made a difference, as per STAVKA plan.

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Warspite

Sure the Germans start further east, but enough to make a difference before Moscow? I don't think this stands up to scrutiny given how far short the Wehrmacht came up.

I suggest you to read the operations of Army Group South in Ukraine, where they faced powerful Soviet units in their fortified regions, a thing which didn't happen in Army Group Center area, when the Red Army abandoned the strong fortified positions and occupied the new buffer zone.

A hint: Army Group South was basically spanked and counter-attacked

So yes it made a difference, as per STAVKA plan.

warspite1

Yes I've read quite a bit on the Eastern Front which is why I do not understand where Leandros's point begins to make sense - and thank-you for adding your confirmation of my thought process. Namely, with no N-S Pact, the Soviets don't move into Eastern Poland but are instead defending the original fortified border and not presenting a nice big 'please encircle me' bulge around Bialystok to the Germans. That is bad news for Army Group Centre....

After entering service Lady Kaga wrote a song about 1939 - Hitler, Stalin and Chamberlain/Churchill

Poker Face

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn



After entering service Lady Kaga wrote a song about 1939 - Hitler, Stalin and Churchill

Poker Face

warspite1

Shouldn't that be Chamberlain and not Churchill? [;)]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn



After entering service Lady Kaga wrote a song about 1939 - Hitler, Stalin and Churchill

Poker Face

warspite1

Shouldn't that be Chamberlain and not Churchill? [;)]

Same British band, they just changed their name..... and lead singer, who use to be the drummer.