Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

UPDATE: You have been relieved!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-nav ... li=BBnbfcL

In the navy....[8|]

I read the words "temporary" and "medical reasons", not what you are implying here.

When bad things happened during your watch, you have to be responsible...[:(]

Doesn't matter. Even if he is exonerated, his career is over.

I doubt it, this whole story sounds too "fishy" for my taste.. but... everything written in the news or in the nets MUST be true, as Lecivius likes to say [;)] Eg. tie fighters were in IJN service in WW2 who would have thought that?

ORIGINAL: Denniss

I read the words "temporary" and "medical reasons", not what you are implying here.

I suspect in addition to physical injury, he may have PTSD issues too. Definitely a good idea to take him away from the scene that likely haunts him.

ORIGINAL: Denniss

I read the words "temporary" and "medical reasons", not what you are implying here.

I agree. A whole lot of conclusions being jumped upon. Due process, people. Due process.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Denniss

I read the words "temporary" and "medical reasons", not what you are implying here.

I agree. A whole lot of conclusions being jumped upon. Due process, people. Due process.

In the U.S. Navy?

I can see it all now.

Naval Board of Review.

Rear Admiral Popusjerc: This board finds Comander Bryce Benson not responsible for the incident of 17 June, 2017.

Comander Bryce Benson: <Blinks in disbelief>

Rear Admiral Popusjerc: However...

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

UPDATE: You have been relieved!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-nav ... li=BBnbfcL

Poor man really, I mean he went to sleep a destroyer captain and woke up injured and without a career

He is responsible 24/7/365 (weather in person or by his training of his crew / standing orders while he is away)...


Leo "Apollo11"

More pictures:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/militar ... ge-photos/

"Finally and perhaps most ominously, investigators have concluded the Fitzgerald's hull was twisted in the collision. "

Not good. Not good at all...

Sounds like requiring a major rebuild or it gets scrapped/sunk as target

As expected

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/uss-fi ... smsnnews11

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

As expected

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/uss-fi ... smsnnews11

No matter the circumstances a captain is responsible for everything that happens on his ship. That is they unwritten law of the sea and has been so forever. I only wish that rule was applied to leaders in industry and government as well.

An interesting quote from http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/17/politics/uss-fitzgerald-leadership-removed/index.html

"The Fitzgerald's commanding officer, Cdr. Bryce Benson, and the executive officer, Cdr. Sean Babbiit, were both sleeping, and the master chief petty officer, Brice Baldwin, were not on the bridge at the time of the collision, according to the Navy."

I gotta say, I thought our warships were run with at least a high ranking officer in the loop of what is going on.

ORIGINAL: Spikeosx

An interesting quote from http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/17/politics/uss-fitzgerald-leadership-removed/index.html

"The Fitzgerald's commanding officer, Cdr. Bryce Benson, and the executive officer, Cdr. Sean Babbiit, were both sleeping, and the master chief petty officer, Brice Baldwin, were not on the bridge at the time of the collision, according to the Navy."

I gotta say, I thought our warships were run with at least a high ranking officer in the loop of what is going on.

The CO is always in the loop. The OOD is driving, with support from the CIC. There are Standing Night Orders on every USN vessel. They specify when the CO is to be called, with no exceptions. A CPA (closest-point-of-approach) is always specified. In every case I was OOD it was in tens of thousands of yards. This ship was in a very crowded lane, so the CPA might have been less. If it had been my ship, I would have been on the bridge, or the XO, or the Nav, or a CDO to back up the OOD and JOOD. The initial report I heard about last night (I have read nothing yet) indicated there was either a lack of training, lack of attention to procedures, or both.

There is a concept in the Navy called the Triangle of Leadership. I was taught it at OCS before I was commissioned. The triangle is Authority, Responsibility, Accountability. Many people conflate the last two, but they are different. Responsibility and Authority can be delegated; Accountability never can be. The CO was not responsible for the collision. Most likely the OOD was. But the CO is accountable for it. And thus he shall hang.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Spikeosx

An interesting quote from http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/17/politics/uss-fitzgerald-leadership-removed/index.html

"The Fitzgerald's commanding officer, Cdr. Bryce Benson, and the executive officer, Cdr. Sean Babbiit, were both sleeping, and the master chief petty officer, Brice Baldwin, were not on the bridge at the time of the collision, according to the Navy."

I gotta say, I thought our warships were run with at least a high ranking officer in the loop of what is going on.

The CO is always in the loop. The OOD is driving, with support from the CIC. There are Standing Night Orders on every USN vessel. They specify when the CO is to be called, with no exceptions. A CPA (closest-point-of-approach) is always specified. In every case I was OOD it was in tens of thousands of yards. This ship was in a very crowded lane, so the CPA might have been less. If it had been my ship, I would have been on the bridge, or the XO, or the Nav, or a CDO to back up the OOD and JOOD. The initial report I heard about last night (I have read nothing yet) indicated there was either a lack of training, lack of attention to procedures, or both.

There is a concept in the Navy called the Triangle of Leadership. I was taught it at OCS before I was commissioned. The triangle is Authority, Responsibility, Accountability. Many people conflate the last two, but they are different. Responsibility and Authority can be delegated; Accountability never can be. The CO was not responsible for the collision. Most likely the OOD was. But the CO is accountable for it. And thus he shall hang.

Well explained. Thanks. My career was on merchant vessels which are different. At sea at night there are generally only two men on the bridge, the watch officer and the helmsman. But the captain was almost always present when the ship was sailing with a pilot or in restricted waters. The experience of the officer on watch mattered when in non-restricted waters. For example, off the coast of Ecuador it was not unusual to run across a fleet of 100 or more small fishing boats fishing at night, and they could cover a very large area and not maneuver much with nets out. An old timer mate would handle the situation and either haul out to go around or take her through. The captain would be left to sleep. A young novice third mate such as me was not allowed that option. It was expected that I would call the captain-no matter what. But like the Moose said, the captain always took the hit if something went bad.

Bullwinkle,
Thanks for the ToL explanation.

I'll use it to rip a new one to our Production Manager who sits and blames everyone else except the guy being paid the bug bucks, HIM.

I have often found Military adages or procedures to be of use in Business, pity OH&S rules stop us from using a firing squad.

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Bullwinkle,
Thanks for the ToL explanation.

I'll use it to rip a new one to our Production Manager who sits and blames everyone else except the guy being paid the bug bucks, HIM.

I have often found Military adages or procedures to be of use in Business, pity OH&S rules stop us from using a firing squad.

When I left the military and entered Fortune 500 management I looked for a recognition of the TofL. I found that in the civilian world Responsibility and Accountability are used interchangeably. They are not the same thing, but corporations think they are. Corporations have no problem frying the lower-level guy for a screw-up, while upper-management skates. If the screw-up is bad enough upper management does not skate, but parachutes out uber-rich with nary a look back. And frequently with no repercussions on getting the next big job.

When the TofL was presented, a lot of the focus was on the hardest part of it. That is the delegation of Authority sufficient to execute the Responsibility also delegated. This is a HUGE problem in corporations. Managers want results, but they fear letting go of their veto. Or budget. Or hiring/firing duty. Or any of it. In the military a lot of the success of leadership comes with an institutional focus on letting the subordinate run with a solution against a defined end-state and giving him the needed resources. And yeah, it's very difficult for a CO, who has Accountability and will hang, to let go and allow his people to do their jobs. If I was a captain of a warship I'd NEVER want to go to sleep.

The other, unspoken part of the TofL is also often misunderstood in the corporate world. I was taught this by a Second Class Boatswain's Mate at OCS and I tried to never forget it in any job I had:

"LEAD people; MANAGE things."