Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: mussey

I'm nearing the finish with the W.Ger Terr Army reserves, but still have a few nagging concerns. For example, a source shows that by 1981-82, WGer had 1200 M-48 Pattons. I wonder if some (or most) of them would show up in these Territory units? Does Keegan account for these?:

German Army Formations [1981-82]
• 6 Tank Divisions (Panzerdivisionen)
• 4 Armored Infantry Divisions (Panzergrenadierdivisionen)
• 1 Mountain Division (Gebirgsdivision)
• 6 Home Defense Tank Brigades (Heimatschutz – Panzerbrigaden)
• 6 Home Defense Armored Infantry Brigades (Heimatschutz – Panzergrenadierbrigaden (not complete)

Number of tanks[1]
MBTs

1,200 M48 A2C/A2GA2
2,737 Leopard 1 A2/A3/A4/A5/A6/1A1A1
1350 Leopard 2
770 Kanonenjagdpanzer
350 Raketenjagdpanzer

This bit from the German Wikipedia.

Ab 1978 wurden 650 M48A2C der Bundeswehr mit der 105-mm-Kanone L7 des Kpz Leopard 1 und mit einer anderen Geschützblende ausgerüstet. Außerdem wurde die Kommandantenkuppel entfernt und durch den Winkelspiegelring des Brückenlegepanzers „Biber“ ersetzt. Zur Flugabwehr und zur Bekämpfung von Kleinzielen diente nunmehr das Maschinengewehr MG3. Ebenfalls umgerüstet wurde das Zielfernrohr zum passiven Nachtziel- und Beobachtungsgerät PZB 200.[8] Mit diesen Fahrzeugen wurden die Panzerbataillone der 2. und 4. Jägerdivision (Kassel bzw. Regensburg) und einige der teilmobilen Panzerbataillone der Heimatschutztruppe ausgestattet. Nach der Umwandlung der Jägerdivisionen in Panzergrenadierdivisionen erhielten diese ebenfalls den Kampfpanzer Leopard 2. Die M48A2GA2 wurden den teilmobilen und nichtaktiven Panzerbataillonen des Territorialheeres zugewiesen, wo sie, auch noch solche vom Typ M48A2C, bis zur Auflösung dieser Verbände (etwa 1993) verwendet wurden.

Important parts are that 650 got upgraded to 105-mm cannon (like the M48A5) and that these served with the 2nd and 4th Jaeger Divisions in the divisional Panzer battalions. These were eventually replaced with Leopard 2's when those two divisions once again were titled "Panzergrenadier". The 105mm M48s were then farmed out to inactive tank battalions in the Territorial Army before being removed in 1993.

I'll let you know if I see other info.

Cheers

I'm seeing the M48 battalions appear in the Territorial Army from the early 1980s forward. Some other bits.

Heimatschützregiment -- the 7 Jagdpanzers and 18 120mm mortars in the HQ Company. Each subordinate battalion has seven of the 20mm AA guns.

If as an option, you wish to show M48 battalions in the Territorial Army, they were organized with 41 M48A2GA2 (the German 105mm version).

There is a lot that could be researched here. I have a complete list of the Territorial Army for 1989 and can look up units in the database of the German Military History Directorate. That is where I found the Panzer battalions appearing in the 1980s. Big project, though. You can see the volume I mention at:

https://www.relikte.com/_basis/docs/bw_2_2-4.pdf

Cheers

Mussey,

Not sure if you've seen this.

https://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/Bund ... ByYear.pdf

Very useful for the German OOB.

Cheers

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

I'm seeing the M48 battalions appear in the Territorial Army from the early 1980s forward. Some other bits.

Heimatschützregiment -- the 7 Jagdpanzers and 18 120mm mortars in the HQ Company. Each subordinate battalion has seven of the 20mm AA guns.

If as an option, you wish to show M48 battalions in the Territorial Army, they were organized with 41 M48A2GA2 (the German 105mm version).

There is a lot that could be researched here. I have a complete list of the Territorial Army for 1989 and can look up units in the database of the German Military History Directorate. That is where I found the Panzer battalions appearing in the 1980s. Big project, though. You can see the volume I mention at:

https://www.relikte.com/_basis/docs/bw_2_2-4.pdf

Cheers

Until more info comes in, I will add the x41 M48's to each HSK bde (I think for now). This equates 6x41=246, then the other M48's for the several divisions listed above gets us to around 900-ish (I'm ballparking). I'm going to play around with the orbat editor to see what these hybrids will look like...

Sounds like a reasonable design decision. One thing to note, though, is how many of the 48's in service in 1979 were A2GA2 version with 105mm. If most of them were 105mm versions, then the available total was 650 converted to that standard. I'm thinking, by 1979, the Germans thought the 90mm cannon versions long in the tooth to confront the Soviet forces.

Cheers

I converted the several divisions (6,4,1,12) to the M-48 III Impr, and added the bns to the HSK bdes. This totals around 620, about half of the aggregate. The remainder we can assume are in depots awaiting for future loss replenishment.

I visit that site a lot, but missed that chart. Thanks again!

FYI: My Terr Army now looks like this:
- x6 HSK Bdes (x2 Inf rgts/ x1 Tk bde/ x1 engr pion bn)
- x6 Jager Bns

This is a significant reduction from the original game. 1980's orbats of F&F list District Defence Commands (‘VBK’), rgt-sized units, all rifled, that resemble militia (?). I'm still trying to identify these units, if they existed in the 1970's.

2nd FYI: 1980's orbats are listing the regular army divisions with several Jagar Bns. I'm not sure to add them to the 1979 scenario. If so, maybe they were reserves?

a reasonable design decision

Exactly. If I were creating just for myself, I would feel fine with this. But since others may eventually play as well, I want to get this as reasonably close as possible without too many justifications. [:(]

This is a significant reduction from the original game. 1980's orbats of F&F list District Defence Commands (‘VBK’), rgt-sized units, all rifled, that resemble militia (?). I'm still trying to identify these units, if they existed in the 1970's.

I think they existed since at least the 1960s. But the F&F representation is misleading.

The VBK was actually a district headquarters. They were subordinated to a WBK, the regional headquarters. And below the VBK was the VKK, a sub-district headquarters. None of these were organized as tactical units. They commanded in wartime a potpourri of small units, most of them related to mobilization or logistics. There were local defense companies, security companies, and infrastructure demolition and repair specialists under the VBKs, but it would be tough to represent that with any accuracy in TOAW.

If one assumes that all the local defense companies were motivated enough to fight and die (with families on the run?), then maybe something like upticking the Soviet force setting for pestilence to represent "other losses" resulting from cleaning out defended villages and the like.

Cheers

Information on W German corps units

Luftwaffe ground units:

NIKE-Hercules Battalions

FlaRakBtl 21 Möhnesee
FlaRakBtl 22 Burbach
FlaRakBtl 23 Schöneck
FlaRakBtl 24 Delmenhorst
FlaRakBtl 25 Barnstorf
FlaRakBtl 26 Wangerland

HAWK Battalions

FlaRakBtl 31 Westertimke
FlaRakBtl 32 Freising
FlaRakBtl 33 Lenggries
FlaRakBtl 34 Rottenburg an der Laaber
FlaRakBtl 35 Delmenhorst
FlaRakBtl 36 Bremervörde
FlaRakBtl 37 Cuxhaven
FlaRakBtl 39 Eckernförde

NIKE units in Germany

Cheers

NIKE units in Germany -- Rhineland detail

Cheers

NIKE locations in Italy

Cheers

Cathar, you are a machine. Do you sleep? THIS IS GREAT.

Mussey, it is sheer luck. I've been digging up organizational information on some of the NATO armies over the last couple of years, and I found resources for the French and German armies.

Cheers

I'm getting ready to create the US 2nd Fleet (Atlantic Ocean). I identified the x13 CV's, their main base/ocean, deployment, and availibility for 2nd Fleet action in the North Atlantic, spring 1979:

Name / Main Port /Last Location found /status/notes
CV-59 Forestal, Atlantic, Med. Sea, 11/1979 ,available for 2nd Fleet
CV-60 Saratoga, Atlantic , Med. Sea, 3/1980 , available for 2nd Fleet
CV-62 Independ., Atlantic , Med. Sea, 6/1979 available for 2nd Fleet
CV-68 Nimitz, Atlantic, VA, cool leaks 5/1979; available for 2nd Fleet??
CV-66 America, Atlantic, Med. Sea, 3/1979
CV-67 JFK Atlantic Norfolk, re-fit thru late 1979
CV-69 Eisenhower Atlantic Med. Sea 1/1979 - 7/1979
CV-41 Midway Pacific Indian Ocean, 4/1979
CV-43 Coral Sea Pacific Indian Ocean, 1/1980
CV-61 Ranger Pacific
CV-63 Kitty Hawk Pacific
CV-64 Constellation Pacific Ind. Ocean, 1978-5/79
CV-65 Enterprise Pacific Pudget, re-fit 1/1979-82

Eisenhower AC 1979
VF-143 (F-14A)
VF-142 (F-14A)
VA-66 (A-7E)
VA-12 (A-7E)
VA-65 (A-6E and KA-6D)
VAQ-138 (EA-6B)
VAW-121 (E-2C)
VS-31 (S-3A)
HS-5 (SH-3H)

Mussey,

BTW, the type of artillery piece for the corps artillery units (other than the LANCE units) is somewhat a guess. A document I have on the W German corps artillery stated most of these battalions were in and out of the reserves in the 1970s and underwent many organizational changes, including the types of towed pieces they used. Unlike the U.S. artillery, the Germans seemed to have had their heavier pieces with their divisions, with the corps battalions just adding some 105 or 155 fire support.

Cheers

Good work Cathar, this mostly agrees with my Orbat as well. A WGer Corps: