Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

My Real Life experiences within the Mod has been one of continually trying to get more FUEL into the HI instead of Oil. Supply is OK but iffy in the HI and my Heavy Industry Stockpile is only around 190,000 presently.

ITAKLinus has done a masterful job above. Like Mike Solli, he works in logistics, so we can be pretty sure he's looking hard at how this all works.

This MOD makes a lot of changes supposing military decisions were different during the interwar periods. What remains the same though is the economy. As BTS has been set up the economic figures were changed in order to make the greatly enlarged OOB, airframe, engine and ship manufacturing actually work to bring the game into the later stages.

If those changes are not made, this MOD won't be playable, even by a conservative IJ player who gets to the historical perimeter and stops. He's put relative numbers above to show this. The deficits would be too great in terms of resources and oil to support the expanded industry, and without the expanded industry you can't get all of the supply for those airframes and engine factories. He's shown it would take the conquest of all of China and India (with industry, resources and oil relatively undamaged) to equal the availability of those in BTS to make it all work.

Your HI is low because you're using so much to make things like airframes and ships and armament. In the "It's the Economy, Stupid" AAR there are a lot of commentary to this effect by PaxMondo and others who noticed the early war production is off the scales by stock/DBB starting points, or what most players make in that era.

So the question then is whether you want to stick to the idea this is somehow historically possible, or just let all of that go and make this a complete alternate world MOD where somehow Japan has more economic ability and therefore can do all of the things you want with ships and planes.

Good comments Obvert.

The goal within the BTS World is:
1. To have an expanded shipyard capability (2 80 Point Slipways added) with some minor additions elsewhere (40 more points worth).
2. Expanded HI and LI to accommodate the IJN's increased preparedness
3. Expanded Armaments to handle the slightly increased/changed IJN LCUs, additional ship board guns, and sundry needs
4. Expanded IJN Aircraft Research and slight bump to 12-7-41 production

Those are the salient points of addition.

To then reflect those changes the starting Fuel, Oil, Resources, and Supply must be adjusted downward.

This is the economic starting point for Dec 7th.

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
My Real Life experiences within the Mod has been one of continually trying to get more FUEL into the HI instead of Oil.

This is no mystery at all. You are famous here as the guy who runs his fleets around all year long

Not ALL year. Just 11.5 months...

OK. Opened up Michael's Zip File and downloaded all the files.

Have to run Sean's turn first and will then get down to serious work.

I still think some of the starting CVLs stretch credibility. They are quite fast with thickly armored flight decks that most bombs bounce off of. With non working torpedoes and bombs that don't penetrate flight decks the Allies have little chance of harming these. And then some convert to full size CVs? Nice ships if you can get em. Also, what constitutes a "small heavy bomber force". A dozen? A couple of hundred? With player defined production there seems to be little check to the growth of 4 engine bombers

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

I still think some of the starting CVLs stretch credibility. They are quite fast with thickly armored flight decks that most bombs bounce off of. With non working torpedoes and bombs that don't penetrate flight decks the Allies have little chance of harming these. And then some convert to full size CVs? Nice ships if you can get em. Also, what constitutes a "small heavy bomber force". A dozen? A couple of hundred? With player defined production there seems to be little check to the growth of 4 engine bombers

Contrarian/devil's advocate time!

On the importance of credibility: Balance and enjoyment to play should take precedent.

John, I would caution you to not over course-correct and strip the IJ economy bare. You're never going to please everyone with this mod (even purists disagree on scen 1 vs 2). A clear change log enables players to walk in with an understanding of the delta between stock and BTS.

Speaking selfishly, it would be a shame to see the economy become so tight that it discourages all but the most efficient Japanese player from having a go. 2 cents, and apologies to Dillworth if I come off a disagreeing brat.

No issues and I think your tone is good.

To JD's comments:
1. The Japanese get a total of 4 Daitai of HB. The Daitai can be built up to 36 planes each. This is what I have currently. The Japanese have one with 5 planes on Dec 7th, gain another in Aug-42, another in April-43, and a final one in Dec 43. If the Japanese player wants them then they have a max build-out of 144 planes. The original LIZ is obsolete at the start of the war, gets one upgrade in late-42/early-43, and then they wait for RITA in mid-45. If the Japanese player builds them then they are hugely expensive but of value (as long as they don't tangle with Fighters).

2. The only CVLs that apply to JD's thinking are not CVLs but the two CAVs. These are the Hybrid CA/CVL allowed in the London Treaty. The G.6 Class is a proto-Soryu design. They are taken from Jentschura's Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy: 1869-1945. They are the G.6 Class. Two ships: Kushiro and ToKachi. Will Post a Screenshot of them:

As with all six of the CLV (2 American) and CAV (2 Japanese, 1 Australian, and 1 New Zealand) the ships are allowed to be converted. The G.6 in Sept 1942 to this:

The starting CVLs are normal with any scenario except the addition of the Aso-Class who are built on the hulls of a Japanese CL.

ORIGINAL: Cheesesteak

Contrarian/devil's advocate time!

On the importance of credibility: Balance and enjoyment to play should take precedent.

John, I would caution you to not over course-correct and strip the IJ economy bare. You're never going to please everyone with this mod (even purists disagree on scen 1 vs 2). A clear change log enables players to walk in with an understanding of the delta between stock and BTS.

Speaking selfishly, it would be a shame to see the economy become so tight that it discourages all but the most efficient Japanese player from having a go. 2 cents, and apologies to Dillworth if I come off a disagreeing brat.

I agree with this sentiment, One of the reasons I like this scenario as Allies is that Japan is viable into 1945.

Shipyard Expansion:

The Japanese build two new slipways to accommodate the building needs of the AltHis. We add two Sz-80 yards at Pt. Arthur and Shanghai. Originally we had a debate about as where these yards could be 'realistically' added and those were the final choices. Am always open to other ideas for placement if anyone has them. The ships they construct appear in those base hexes.

The remaining 40 points is split into equal additions to the Yokohoma, Osaka, Fukuyama, and Hiroshima Yards.

Am getting a serious numbers headache! In comparing BTS to DBB these are the differences in category numbers:

Heavy Industry +485
Light Industry +414
Armaments +10
Vehicles +68
Engines +702
Assembly +189

Engines and Vehicles jumped out at me. Am currently doing a comparison of Engines and increased Aircraft Production. Will Post that in a few minutes once I am done tabulating.

Checking notes on the other areas.

Got to say THANK YOU to my wife who let me buy a second monitor so I can run two at once. Damn. It does make this comparative work a lot easier.

Worked my way thru my old notes and these numbers. Will have changes in all areas later tonight or tomorrow morning.

It is a bright and lovely morning in Northern Colorado.

Looks like I have all the plans for the re-tool of the economy and then we can get down to business with all other changes.

Will be Posting a series of comments applying to all facets of the Home Isles economy.

We'll start with the easy ones first.

Heavy Industry
DB starts Japan's HI at 6.950. The current version of BTS is at 7,435. This is a net gain of 485. With Michael's reset, it is again down to 6,950. Increased HI SHOULD only be 250 so we'll add 75 to Port Arthur and Shanghai (where the new slipways are) and then 50 to both Yokohoma and Hiroshima.

Light Industry
DB has Dec 7th start at 9,560. BTS sets it at 9,974. Net BS gain of 414.

Reset to 9,560 and add 300 to reflect additional work. We add LI to Shanghai (75), Port Arthur (75), and Yokohoma, Nagasaki, Osaka, Hiroshima, and Fukuyama (30 each).

Armaments
DB has the war start at 620 while BTS is 630.

Reset but we'll add a total of 50 to starting number with 25 being added to Sendai and Yokohoma.

Vehicles
DaBabes has 72 but BTS raises it to 140.

That is a BS number and I have no idea as to WHY it got bumped that high. OK. Fine. Dial it back 90 for a slight bump of 18. This reflects the added heavy equipment going into the Assault Brigades, small Engineering units, and HQs.

We now shift to aircraft and aircraft engines:

Starting War Productions Numbers
DaBabes
A6M2 56
Jake 27
Betty 25
Nell 22
Val 12
Mavis 6
Pete 3
Glen 9

BTS
A6M2 130
Jake 48
Betty 50
Nell 22
Nell Kai 6
Val 60
Emily 12
Tina 10
Kate 50
Kate-C 6
Glen 9
Liz 8

Those number are not too far off what was originally planned but they are high. Reduce A6M2 to 100 (down 30), Tina down to 5(down 5), Liz down to 4 (down 4) and Val/Kate production down to 40 (10 down each).

The original starting production (total aircraft) was 375 and BTS had it starting at 564. That number is now 505 for a net increase in aircraft production of 130 planes.

Engines
I will list the DaBabes number first then BTS after:
Mitsubishi
-31 50--45 Alf-Pete--No change.
-32 60--320 Betty, Emily, Jill--drop 100 down to 220--this is still a rise of 160 engines.
-33 65--230 Nell, Nell Kai, Jake, Val, Tina--drop 30 to 200--increase total of 135.
-42 2--2 Nothing
-43 10--10 Nothing

Net expansion of Mitsubishi engines is 195.

Nakajima
-5 7--10 Align to 7 so this is a drop of 3.
-34 10--45 George--Net gain of 35.
-35 180--490 Liz, Kate, A6M2--drop by 120 to 370--Net gain of 190 engines.
-44 10--0 Jill--Align to DB--Net gain 10.
-45 30--30 Nothing

Net expansion of Nakajima Engines is 238.

The total engine expansion is 433.

That should just about cover the areas of the economy.

We will now have to shift over to the COST of this expansion. Lets summarize the additions/subtractions listed above:

Shipyards +200
Heavy Industry +250
Light Industry +300
Armaments +50
Vehicles +18
Aircraft +130
Engines +433

Industry Expansion--+818 Points
Aircraft Industry Expansion--+563 Points

Total Expansion is--1,381.

DaBabes Starting Numbers:

Resources 7,322,400
Oil 3,232,400

Supply 3,081,338
Fuel 4,490,550

Here is where my notes have evaporated. I REMEMBER us splitting the expansion 50-50 between resources/oil and supply/fuel. Cannot find that in notes however.

Taking 1381 expansion number we cut it in half to 690.5. If my memory is correct then THAT number (690,500) comes off EACH of the above 4 categories. The goal was reflect the gradual expansion of the industry from 1937 to Dec 7, 1941 by pulling down ALL areas reflecting growth, investment, and return over the four years of this period.

New Starting Numbers would be:

Resource 6,631,900
Oil 2,541,900

Supply 2,390,838
Fuel 3,800,050

Total cost of expansion is then 2,762,000 in terms of all starting numbers.

This economic stuff always provides a pretty good headache for me. Any Japanese economic people want to comment?

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

ORIGINAL: Cheesesteak

Contrarian/devil's advocate time!

On the importance of credibility: Balance and enjoyment to play should take precedent.

John, I would caution you to not over course-correct and strip the IJ economy bare. You're never going to please everyone with this mod (even purists disagree on scen 1 vs 2). A clear change log enables players to walk in with an understanding of the delta between stock and BTS.

Speaking selfishly, it would be a shame to see the economy become so tight that it discourages all but the most efficient Japanese player from having a go. 2 cents, and apologies to Dillworth if I come off a disagreeing brat.

I agree with this sentiment, One of the reasons I like this scenario as Allies is that Japan is viable into 1945.

I'm playing a Scen 1 game in Dec 45!! Miller lasted how long vs Mr Kane? There are opportunities to play late if you can manage the economy and use your tactical tools strategically. [;)]