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RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:43 pm
by Harrybanana
ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
It seems it was 2. Here is Alvaro's view on it:
fb.asp?m=4801886
"So here is the deal..... There was one strategy where the Russians simply ran away. It was a 100% successful strategy to thwart the Germans. So I increase rail repair rate from 2 to 3 hexes per turn. The Russians should defend SOME forward to slow down the advance and not just run away 100% of the time never engaging. What was happening was that the Germans would outrun the rail and have to wait and the Russians didn't have to do anything. Then just wave hit them in 1942 and 1942 and tada dead Germany. With the 3 rail repair rate I think that is enough to force the Russians to defend some. Basically all games should hit the historical line or close to it by the end of the year. With the new winter supply penalties and bonuses to winter combat specialization it should allow the Soviets to mount a winter offensive."
I didn't play the game when it first came out, but I am skeptical that this runaway strategy would work with the current rules even if rail repair was reduced from 3 to 2. For one thing the Baltic States rail are automatically repaired, so this run away would not do much if anything to slow the advance on Leningrad. For another there would be no difference for the first two turns of Barbarossa as rail lines are not repaired on these turns anyway. The differences would not show up until turns 3. If the Russians run away it means that they are not gaining any National Morale/Experience increases. Now that they start at 30% this is more important than ever.
In any event I for one would like to try this. I will play the Axis and whoever plays me can use this Runaway strategy.
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:50 pm
by Flaviusx
The runaway strategy just invites an April invasion anyways. I don't think it was ever very effective against a German prepared to go early even in mud conditions.
Magic Missile was famous for launching mud offensives in April, as a matter of fact, and he won every time going early like this, weather or no. I'm a little surprised people stopped doing this. It would be even more effective now than it was before. Most folks won't start until they get clear in all weather zones now, and this imo is probably not optimal. There is no real penalty to starting early now and the earlier the better. Light rain is fine. Only across the board the heavy rains in April or May would dissuade me. Clear in one part of the front is more than good enough.
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:57 pm
by Nirosi
1. Air units receive no supply benefit from being within 5 hexes of an HQ like ground units do.
Well they get part of it. They do not get the +4% (at best) inside the recovery formula, but the recovery formula also takes into account the map supply level than can be increased (to a point; 8 max I think) by 1 within HQ range.
True, most of the time air units are on rails at level 9 anyway, but in some place like Africa, they might get a third of the total bonus a inf. gets by just been on an hex with an extra map level.
But anyway, I agree that they should have the same full effect as a land unit.
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:16 pm
by MagicMissile
Yes if the Soviets didn´t set up units at the border there was a very low cost not to invade as early as possible to get the rail repair going. I think the earliest I did was 2nd turn of February. Today people defend at the border so attacking in mud would be more difficult so maybe wouldnt work out so good. But I wouldn´t mind trying lowering it down to 2 again to see how that would play out.
/MM
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:29 am
by ncc1701e
ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
It seems it was 2. Here is Alvaro's view on it:
fb.asp?m=4801886
"So here is the deal..... There was one strategy where the Russians simply ran away. It was a 100% successful strategy to thwart the Germans. So I increase rail repair rate from 2 to 3 hexes per turn. The Russians should defend SOME forward to slow down the advance and not just run away 100% of the time never engaging. What was happening was that the Germans would outrun the rail and have to wait and the Russians didn't have to do anything. Then just wave hit them in 1942 and 1942 and tada dead Germany. With the 3 rail repair rate I think that is enough to force the Russians to defend some. Basically all games should hit the historical line or close to it by the end of the year. With the new winter supply penalties and bonuses to winter combat specialization it should allow the Soviets to mount a winter offensive."
I didn't play the game when it first came out, but I am skeptical that this runaway strategy would work with the current rules even if rail repair was reduced from 3 to 2. For one thing the Baltic States rail are automatically repaired, so this run away would not do much if anything to slow the advance on Leningrad. For another there would be no difference for the first two turns of Barbarossa as rail lines are not repaired on these turns anyway. The differences would not show up until turns 3. If the Russians run away it means that they are not gaining any National Morale/Experience increases. Now that they start at 30% this is more important than ever.
In any event I for one would like to try this. I will play the Axis and whoever plays me can use this Runaway strategy.
I agree, the Soviets need to fight to increase based experience. It looks like suicide to withdraw without fighting.
I am wondering if rail repair rate is a variable contained in the engine or in the scenario. If this is inside the scenario, perhaps we can copy/paste Europe 1939 and modify just the rail repair rate from 3 to 2 to do a test.
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:35 am
by Nirosi
I agree, the Soviets need to fight to increase based experience. It looks like suicide to withdraw without fighting.
It does not have to be an all or none. Some units (the start ones) can be sacrificed to do the fighting while others withdraw to survive (at least try to, nothing is ever sure) and then do the fighting in Winter. With massive attacks in Winter one can control loses, and which units improve first, much better. I usually have gained a big chunk of my experience (both for units and the national one) during the first winter.
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:25 pm
by Harrybanana
Assuming Barbarossa begins on the May 9, 1941 turn and that the Axis advance at a relatively rapid pace, below are the railway supply heads at the beginning of every 3rd turn. The point being that even if the Axis advance quickly they are still pretty much guaranteed to never be very far from their supply. In my AAR with Sveint where I was the Axis I think I advanced at a pretty good pace and yet my lead units were always in at least supply level 5 or better (except for the one turn I goofed and 2 of my units were put out of supply).
JUNE 6, 1941
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:26 pm
by Harrybanana
JULY 18, 1941
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:27 pm
by Harrybanana
AUGUST 29, 1941
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:37 pm
by Harrybanana
Below are screenshots of where the supply lines would be if the Axis advance at a good pace but rail repair is reduced to 2 hexes per turn. Still pretty good in my opinion.
JUNE 6, 1941
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:38 pm
by Harrybanana
JULY 18, 1941
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:40 pm
by Harrybanana
AUGUST 29, 1941
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:41 pm
by Harrybanana
OCTOBER 10, 1941
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:41 pm
by ncc1701e
I am back in front of my computer. I have found the parameter to change for doing a test.
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:10 pm
by ncc1701e
ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
Below are screenshots of where the supply lines would be if the Axis advance at a good pace but rail repair is reduced to 2 hexes per turn. Still pretty good in my opinion.
You don't want to reduce to 1 per turn, do you?
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:05 pm
by Harrybanana
No reducing to 1 per turn during clear weather would be too much. Ideally rail repair would be reduced to 1 per turn during snow and rain and 0 during heavy rain and blizzard. This would be historical and would further deter the Axis from launching an early Barbarossa (ie before May 41). But I don't think this can be modified.
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:06 pm
by Harrybanana
I should add that this is not my idea. It is Stjeand's. But I think it is a good one.
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:45 pm
by ncc1701e
ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
No 1 per turn during clear weather would be too much. Ideally rail repair would be reduced to 1 per turn during snow and rain and 0 during heavy rain and snow. This would be historical and would further deter the Axis from launching an early Barbarossa (ie before May 41). But I don't think this can be modified.
That is a good idea but I see snow twice. Do you mean?
. 2 per turn when clear
. 1 per turn when snow, rain and cold(?)
. 0 per turn when heavy rain and blizzard
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:06 pm
by sveint
I just wanted to add that I think the other nations are fantastically well balanced, better than I've seen in any other game. Well done by Alvaro.
The UK vs Germany in the early game is a joy to play.
RE: Russian balance
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:34 pm
by Harrybanana
ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
No 1 per turn during clear weather would be too much. Ideally rail repair would be reduced to 1 per turn during snow and rain and 0 during heavy rain and snow. This would be historical and would further deter the Axis from launching an early Barbarossa (ie before May 41). But I don't think this can be modified.
That is a good idea but I see snow twice. Do you mean?
. 2 per turn when clear
. 1 per turn when snow, rain and cold(?)
. 0 per turn when heavy rain and blizzard
Oops. I meant blizzard. I will edit my post.