Matrix Games Forums

Near as i can tell each of the three factors morale , leadership, experience all affect the point value... as does national characteristics ..play with it a bit you get strange effects ..
Another factor that is interesting to look at is the point value in the Unit Screen ( right click on the unit itself on the map ) this screen has a point value for the unit that is awarded when it is killed ... this point value is often different the the buy points ..
Typicaly it is 25% to 40% higher point value for americans and 10%-25% higher for the Germans .. this results in a "bonus" ammount of Victory points for the german player when they kill U S Inf as opposed to when the US kills German Inf ..which is yet anoher German advantage at the current pricing ... play with the settings it is hard to find a pattern

Don;t spend too much time on 4.5 - we changed it a fair bit in v5. ONly experience matters. True troop cost will include a modifier at buy time for experience, with true troop cost off you pay the "standard OOB cost". Morale and leader numbers don't play.

The basic idea is that when you buy units, the cost is based on the average experience value (the one shown in the purchase screen) When you actually buy it and the unit characteristics are rolled for, then there is a % gain or loss based on unit exp-70 percent so a 40 exp unit is worth 30% less victory points and a 100 exp unit is worth 30% more.

4.5 was a bit weird when it came to how that was figured out. When v5 comes out everyone can get out their green eyeshades and figure out who we "skewed the game" toward and who is juste "skewed".

As I found in 15 years of ops analysis work, you can always find a metric to prove any point you want to make when it comes to comparing 2 combat systems

Originally posted by chaos45:
first off with standard national exp on american squads without bazookas are 22 points each not 30 that is the error in you calculations victor. that includes being 22 pts with the national characteristics turned off in the preferences. Which means way more americans than your totals which puts the germans at a decided disadvantage.

That's a good question... I play with True Troop Cost turned ON. Maybe that has something to do with the points discrepancy you mention. All I know is that with the settings I use in my Preferences Screen, all my units cost the same as their stated Encylopedia prices at TQ70.

With true troop cost on if a unit has 70 for base experience it will cost the same as in the oob, if the expereince base is higher, it costs more, if less it costs less. The "average" is used becasue the experience of individual units isn't diced for until you buy them. That is why there is sometimes a discrepency between buy cost and victory point cost. The former is based on the average, the latter based on what you actually get.

Yep vicor evidently I my comp didnt change things that day when I was messing with it you are correct about the point costs with national characteristics off. I like those point totals much better, and have decided thats the way to play for now.

Originally posted by chaos45:
Okay I decided to go and get numerical stats on the infantry to prove my point.

Here it is: all 1943
German Base 70morale 70experience 70leadership

American Base 70morale 70experience 65leadership

Doesnt look like a big difference to me.

Costs:
German regular 10 man squad=26pts no panzerfaust
American Regular 12 man squad=22pts
American 12 man w/bazooka=25pts

Para
German 10 man=28pts with K98s and no fausts
American 12man=22pts come on?
German 10man=33pts with autorifles and fausts
American 12man=25 with Bazooka

Looks real balance to me huh. I dont think so the costs should be reversed. At the worst equal not less than. The numbers pretty much prove my point I do believe.

Unless the oobs changed quite a bit from the ones I am using 4.3b with the fixed oob's from tankheads or someother website, these numbers are all wrong.

The US 12 man squads are armed with the M1903 not garands. When you look at the Garand and bazooka equipped 9 man squads they are 40 points base cost, more than the German spec ops, SS or FJ.

Comparing early war squads, the Germans have a better squad mg, better grenades and better support behind them. It could be that the US infantry is overpriced instead of underpriced.

Hopefully the experiance and leadership ratings for the 1930's will be fixed in v5.0, there should be a dip during each countries expansion of their military, as they went from a small professional force to a conscripted mass army. The US army should have better ratings in the early and mid thirties and not dip until the big callups prior to the US entry in the war.

In a similar fashion, the German army of 1930 was not the same caliber of army as it had in 39 after it gained experiance in Spain.
thanks, John.

Victorhausen just to quiet any concerns you have about Chaos45 and his experience as a wargamer .. he is not only the top Axis player in the 43 "up the boot league" ,he gave me the closest and hardest fought game i have played so far ... He and I deeply disagree on the pricing issue.. and i am sure we both hold good reasons for our opinions .. some of mine seem to be outside of the concerns of some folks here..and some of his I believe to be based more on myth than fact ... But there can be no question as to the Chaos45's ability at this game.. Chaos , darn good game, never played one closer or harder...Thanks

Adding my opinion:

perhaps US and Sovjets are sooo cheap against German that it helps to build battles against AI controlled allied ? Ai has nothing to say against human if playing with equal points and experience and so on..

I am considering that buying 32 portees against one company of infantry is a bit ridiculous...

mosh