Matrix Games Forums

42. july 5.
Clear

The finns kept bombing Lennigrad for quite a bit of time now. They were warned to keep themselves out of this war. But last week they tried to bomb Lennigrad again (they were stopped by the only one fighter wing there), and moved troops next to our peacefull troops. As last warning before occupation our heavy bombers attacked the finn airfields destroying many terror bombers. Not much more action as in the south our troops rested, and in the centre after a long time there is a continous line of weak troops.

Losses this week:

Axis/Soviet:

Aircraft: 743/109

Stavka

1942. july 12.
Clear

There is a calm befor the storm it seems as the germans did mostly nothing for quite some time. The red army launched a few attacks on weak looking korpses but most of them failed.

Losses this week:

Axis/Soviet

1004/910
85/306
443/406
95/7

Stavka

The calm is because Russian hq's have been placed in key areas stacked with tank armies. These hq's have been next to my korps for sometime now. For a country that will be spending most of its time attacking me, I dont think that was the smartest tactic to use to get your central front in order. I have 9 German pz divisions in the central front, you have more than 9 tank korps in the area. there is no need for hq stacking as you have more than enough numbers to beat me. You have opened a door that will only hurt you in the future.

1942. july 19.
Clear

Not much action, just some attrition attacks against german lines (about half suceeded).

Losses this week:

German/Soviet

1372/907
374/315
678/515
104/0

p.s: This a declared no rules game. I dont like pure infatry panzer korpses either:) If I ever manage to get on an offense (not just counters) I would love german hq's using this tactics. Germany dont really have armored troops to be wasted like this. Those hq's have to be defended from the flanks very strongly. I have all my tank armies fully stacked and more then a dozen tank/mech korps free. My main goal is to have them in the hq to reinforce bullied armies with tank korpses (to maybe get a panzer korps stopped at a very bad place). Those hq's in front are the commanding hq's of the area. They were low on OP, and the places held by them were important (my just transferred low rediness, no entrenchment tank armies which would have been bombed heavily just would not hold). So I have no bad feelings about them, and if pressed again I would use them again. I have absolutely no problem if you do the same.

Would you like me to surrender some of my airforce, pz divisions or inf divisions? Would you like my production reduced? Would you like me to tell you every turn where my pz divisions are? would you like my password so you get to know where all my troops are? Would you like me to pull back my lines? I mean how much more pro Russian do you want this game to be?

Of course this game is pro soviet. Not as much as our last we stopped but still. When you are beating me you have no problem. Sorry but you are complaining too much for my likening. I always have now bad feelings when I do something... Will you like it? Or will it be overdooing my advantage? If I say you (of course) do the same you get sensitive and say things like you said in you last message. So deceide yourself if you want to continue but no mre complaining please.

What do people think of hq stacking tactic?

I think tom summed his thoughts up perfect in his last post

My experience with hq stacking.....

600 tanks 600 squads in a hq

a force needed to retreat this hq would be around 1800 tanks and 1800 squads.

1, Note this is before losses before combat like anti fire, so more force is needed
2, hq is immune to air attack
3, lose lose result....if you retreat it, suffering 1800 tanks lost, is it a win?


I have attacked hq's like this in other games and suffered 80% losses in armor and inflicting only 1/3 of my losses in squads and guns

There is no time that I have gone well in this game and there wont be, it is made for me to lose. Less than 2 to 1 tank losses is a defeat, just like it was at Kursk with germany inflicting 3 to 1 losses to Russia.

I think it is wise to use pincers attack in such cases.

if it was in a position to be pincer attacked, I would not be posting. they are gerenaly placed in hexes that you can not keep while other troops/hqs are in better terrain like swamps.

eg. Possum map

A unit in Minsk, hq ne of the city and units in the swamps and another hq is a little further back on the rail line.

1942. july 26.
Clear

The germans have seemingly given up on Minsk for now, as 2 of the panzerkorpses adjecent to the city were attacked, and they had only some guns in them (both shattered). In the north germans have withdrawn from our troops. We did not follow them as we suspect a trap. Our fighters forces deployed last week were desroyed again of course. We need lot more time to develop the full potential of our armies, so if the germans do nothing we will do the same for some time.

The losses were very minor this week.

Stavka

p.s: Kingtiger one of our few rules say 3 succesfull atacks per turn on target. You bombed Lennigrad 5 times, and Kiev 4 times. Maybe the difference is that I consider an attack succesfull if the bombers bomb the target, even if there is no damage (like factory sustains no damage, or no aircraft destroyed on the ground in a airfield attack). If you don't count those it is OK with me, just let me know.

I still dont see stacked hq's as a big problem. As long as I have the strength to keep their flanks defended I have more hitting power then the hq's only (they are not the only ones keeping away). Of course with the german tanks you dont want to attack tank armies in swamps. The continous attacks would hurt any of your panzers big time. For two turns now those hq's are away from the front, so you can hit me if they were the only problem. They are still full of tanks, as they are not primarly fighting hq's, they are hq's for my reserve. And nearly all of my commanding hq's are like that... I could raise at least 5 more tank armies, but I can't. All of my lines are now entrenched or held by large armored forces, so I hope now I can choose when to attack. Of course the impossible air situation is a big problem for me, but I will try my best.

I do think you were much better then me so long (of course we should count in the circumstances, my advantage in troops). I just don't want to run into your trap, so you will not see big deep attacks from me. One german for 2 soviets is all I need, as you said as well.

If we played this you can demolish me in normal possum (with me as soviets). If I could stop you there I will be a proud man:)

This will be my final post about Hq stacking. I would call this stating the facts, not complaining. All numbered items are tom1939's quotes

1) Those hq's have to be defended from the flanks very strongly.

This is a invalaid point, all armies have to be defended very strongly or risk being encircled.

2) My main goal is to have them in the hq to reinforce bullied armies with
tank korpses (to maybe get a panzer korps stopped at a very bad place).

If this is truely your main goal and it is not. (look at what you said in point 3) why would your hq's move up while your army retreats? Only 1 korps was in front of 2 of your hq's while I was advancing. You had more than enough turns to pull them back but only done so when i mentioned something about it.

3)Those hq's in front are the commanding hq's of the area.

This point has no value

4)They were low on OP, and the places held by them were important (my just transferred low rediness, no entrenchment tank armies which would have been bombed heavily just would not hold)

This sounds more like your main goal, your army is unable to hold its ground, you had no aircover. You need time, you have great places to defend (swamps east of minsk) in but you will be easly outflanked. So hq's take the place of your korps. By doing this you are immune to airpower, no stacking penalty and turns the clear hexes that you stated your army could not hold, into forts.

5) So I have no bad feelings about them, and if pressed again I would use them again. I have absolutely no problem if you do the same.

Alot of rules have been added to this game because of what has happened here. A close look at the new rules forum will show that people do have bad feelings about them. You are a very smart man, a closer read of your own words will tell you this is wrong.


new post

6) Of course with the german tanks you dont want to attack tank armies in swamps. The continous attacks would hurt any of your panzers big time.

This is correct, it is also correct in regards to hitting stacked hq's.

7) For two turns now those hq's are away from the front, so you can hit me if they were the only problem.

What you mean here is that you needed time to get your line entrenched, in order and now it is, so Russia is ready for Germany to attack again. Refer to your comments (4) as both of these point are conflicting.

8) They are still full of tanks, as they are not primarly fighting hq's, they are hq's for my reserve.

Reserve armies placed on hexes that you call important but are not primarly fighting hq's. A hq has 1 task, and that is admin. ( refer point 3) Once again your 2 comments conflict

9) And nearly all of my commanding hq's are like that...

This might be true, but they are not in your front lines so it dose not bother me

10) I could raise at least 5 more tank armies, but I can't. All of my lines are now entrenched or held by large armored forces, so I hope now I can choose when to attack. Of course the impossible air situation is a big problem for me, but I will try my best.

no comment

11) I do think you were much better then me so long (of course we should count in the circumstances, my advantage in troops). I just don't want to run into your trap, so you will not see big deep attacks from me. One german for 2 soviets is all I need, as you said as well.

We both agree that with the current tank losses in this battle it's a Russian victory.

12) If we played this you can demolish me in normal possum (with me as soviets). If I could stop you there I will be a proud man:)

I have played with people that have used hq's in defence before and I feel that it is not in the spirit of the game. I would like to meet and play with more players that have the same spirit as me.


Summary

I have 9 pz divisions attacking in the centre and I would say that Russia has atleast 30 tank armies there. I have no doubt that without the use of stacked hq's in your lines I would be 1/2 way to Moscow by now, not pulling back troops as im currently doing. As you can see these are two very different results in the game. Where your 10 tank korps failed a few Hq's succeeded.


I would like to leave this topic hear and move on. I have a war to fight

p.s: Kingtiger one of our few rules say 3 succesfull atacks per turn on target. You bombed lenningrad 5 times, and Kiev 4 times. Maybe the difference is that I consider an attack succesfull if the bombers bomb the target, even if there is no damage (like factory sustains no damage, or no aircraft destroyed on the ground in a airfield attack). If you don't count those it is OK with me, just let me know.

My mistake, i misunderstood what you ment. I will only bomb Lennigrad 1 time, Kiev 2 times next turn to even out my mistake.

Ok, this will be mine last about this as well.

To number 1: Common it's not the same to encirle a simple infantry army or a Hq with 6 tank korpses. This tactic means win a lot or lose a lot... They are nice targets for encirclement, and were defended too strongly from the flanks. It shows that there were another aspects of stopping your offense not only those hq's. They would be prisoners right now, if this is not true. In my mind all I stopped is an early attack from 3 directions against Minsk. It was reduced to 2 dierctions.

To number 2: Firstly I was not withdrawing them beacuse you did not like them. I felt strong enough (the tankers were rested) to move in for some tank battles. I was just joking about it. If I would feel those hq's needed they would still be there. As for my main goal. It is the reinforcement, but if I see a good opportunity I will put those hq's up front (I can easily have more then one goal:)).


To number 4: Oh yes! Absolutely! I'm not even shamed about it... No rules again... Somwhere in the forum the inventor of this speaks about this. If germans can do super panzer korpses we poor soviets will use hq's.

To number 5: I can really see the point of being wrong in a no rules game. There are a lot of wrong things here of course: airlifting, infantry panzer korpses plotting more then 2, super panzer korpses, my fortress hq's etc. Next game we can use a lot of rules if you want.

To number 6: You avoided my point here. There were other defences then those hq's.

To number 7: I dont see much of a conflict. I used everything to my advantage. Now I deceided to move forward, and put the hq's back. If entrenchment is the same problem for you as fortress hq's then those hq's are not that bad.

To number 8: Again my hq's have multiple tasks, the main one is the reinforcement. But the second most important is to defend key areas.

To number 9: Just overrun the fronts they are commanding and they will bother you:)

To number 11: Yes, I should win if we both have the same skill. I still think you are much better.

To number 12: I never forced (or sued) anyone into a game. I try to keep the rules if there are some, but I will not stop anything efficient just because my opponent does not like it (and I will not try to stop my opponent doing that). So then this will be our last game.

About your summary:

I think you are a bit disrespectfull about being halfway to Moscow now... In the beginning of your offense I had only 6 tank armies around (which ar easily less the 15 panzer divisions and nearly that many motorized divisions). Around Minsk I had 11 tank armies (around 25 tank/mech korps and at least 25 cavalry divisions) and you had some slight losses to my 6 tank armies earlier if I remember right. And there were no hq's then... You might have been moving forward, but not with 9 panzer divisons.

My summary: you might have capturred Minsk, and might even destroyed some tank armies. But your losses would have been at least as bad as earlier. Before the beginning of your offense we had about the same number of armor in the centre area. When I began using hq's It was 3:1 for the tank armies. With those odds I could kill least one strong panzer korps a turn with mass counterattacks if they dare any deep moves. And your air suppriority is unchanged then and now. My 11 tank armies did not fail, they were not even needed.

No problem at all.

1942. august 2.
Clear

Major reforms have been made this week to increase the red army's hitting power. Only 2 attrition attacks near Minsk (both failed).

Losses this week:

Axis/Soviet

442/570
57/105
170/113
79/0

Stavka

Both sides are refitting there forces for the comming Soviet attack. Im expecting this attack to be launched in winter as any large scale attack during the summer will be smashed. I still have more than enough force to launch a large scale attack but will try to keep tom off balanced with these forces. Combat has been limmited to only a few attacks in our last few turns.

I think you are a bit disrespectfull about being halfway to Moscow now...

I disagree, Ill prove it with a rematch when this game is done.

We only have our 1st turns then someone ( Flanker Leader ) skips our turns till 1/4/42. We can suggest items to be done for us, eq.. placing reinforcements in hq's next to Moscow. The turn before we play , (Flanker Leader ) will move all our korps to remove ent levels.

Special rules for this game...... when we start (1/4/42), if all ZOC contain an enemy korps , airwings my be placed on training missions.
Russia can attack Germany on the 1/8/42

1) A corps can only change its commanding HQ before it receive extra supply.

2) A single enemy unit may be attacked no more than 3 times per turn.

3) To plot more than 2 hexes of movement an armored Korps/Corps must be composed of AT LEAST TWO Panzer, Tank, Motorized, PanzerGrenadier (PZG), Mechanized or Cavalry Divisions FOR EVERY ONE non-mobile (Infantry) Division. If an armored Korps containing regular infantry divisions does not have the minimum amount of mobile Divisions in it, it may only plot 2 hexes as if it were an infantry Korps/Army.

4) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 7 hexes to it.


5) No Hungarian, Rumanian, or Finnish units may be sent to the West or Italian Front HQs. No Italian units may be sent to the West Front HQ.


6) Finnish forces MAY NOT attack Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.

7) (3.3 only) No player may have more than 1 heavy tank factory for every 2 light or medium tank factories.


8) A korps needs its full movement allowence to move into a swamp and mountain hex. When a korp enters a swamp or mountain hex, it must stop its advance. Under snow or blizzard conditions, the swamps are frozen and are clear terrain.

9) No changing the chains of command

10) HQ's may only contain 1 division per hexes away it is from a supplied enemy hex; HQ's 4 or more hexes away may contain an unlimited amount of divisions. For hex counting include the hex the friendly HQ is in.

These rules will be upgraded the same as the rules in the forum.

The disrespect is only about our current game (the game you want to prove your right is a completely different piece of cake). The main point was that you said only my hq's stopped you (2 hq's, not 5 or 6...). Those tank armies meant nothing, 9 panzer divisions would have marched half way to Moscow:)

I belive with these rules and you playing germany I would lose. If I would play germany with this rules -I don't think I would lose... This rules are better for the germans then a absolutely no rule game (see number 7 and 10). If you limit my heavy tanks I would limit your fw's (oh and panthers are medium tanks right?). If you limit hq's as combat units (and this weakens the soviets mostly as defensive hq's for germany are not nearly as effective) I would limit your panzer korpses (no 3 panzer div + 3 motor div+ 2 panzer bn monsters), to 8 stacking points. The special rule for our game is a killer as well for soviets (no entrenchment). It would result in another endless talks over rules...

With both of us I would say a no rules game is the best. Beat me as germans in normal possum, then do it again in a rematch as soviets:)

I belive with these rules and you playing germany I would lose. If I would play germany with this rules -I don't think I would lose... This rules are better for the germans then a absolutely no rule game (see number 7 and 10).

I would have no problem with you playing Germany with these rules. In fact, I would love it!!

Okay with me:) But I will want to prepare my forces directly, as it is a big pain to do all the stuff I want.