Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

Nice theory of game publishing, but it fails to take into account the difference between the relative and the absolute. The employees of SSG need a certain amount of money each year, just to be able survive and to keep making wargames.

For the record, Korsun Pocket, despite winning awards and stellar reviews, failed this basic test. I was only able to keep working for SSG by subsidising my employment with money from a divorce settlement. This is not a sustainable basis for business!

We have to be realistic about how many copies we are going to sell and that dictates the price we have to charge. The poster who suggested we could sell 40,000 copies with the right pricing was definitely dreaming.
Gregor

Cheers Gregor. But what you're looking for is venture capital, if not benevolent venture capital and it does exist (and I too wish to find it [;)] )

Fear not, myself and many colleagues across a variety of efforts in this hobby feel the same way and I must tell you, the catch cry that war game development is done "for the love of it" continues to wear thin on me.

Of course state of the art AI performance and innovative design does not come at the loss of merely a few hours labour (Aussie spelling for an Aussie).

However, you can't deny the reasonable expectation that by cutting the costs of production, one isn't entitled to expect some flow back to the consumer.

You've just got to look at the issue of increasing volume. Personally, the limited number of scens coupled with an escoteric subject matter, limited the potential of KP. It went so far as you having a confusing battle exacerbated by newbies not even understanding basic NATO iconography.

"Korsun" just didn't logically follow "Bulge" as a well-known campaign in the general war gaming public's eye.

Adam.

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

You've just got to look at the issue of increasing volume. Personally, the limited number of scens coupled with an escoteric subject matter, limited the potential of KP. It went so far as you having a confusing battle exacerbated by newbies not even understanding basic NATO iconography.

"Korsun" just didn't logically follow "Bulge" as a well-known campaign in the general war gaming public's eye.

Completely agree there - indeed, the whole issue of not having a scenario in which to play as the US/UK probably did harm to the sales of KP.

I'm not saying do not model the Eastern Front, or that it's not worth having Axis forces playable, but surely bundling such options with a smattering of more familiar battles could only be an advantage and widen the appeal of the game...

I bought KP and didn't really start getting into it at all until the user made scenarios on the Run5 website started to appear.

I'm sure BiN will appeal to a wider audience...even if many are slightly jaded by the sheer number of Normandy/D-Day games.

"Korsun" just didn't logically follow "Bulge" as a well-known campaign in the general war gaming public's eye.

there is something true here. After buying KP I only play KP scenario many month after the Bulge one. In fact I have played ATD before KP.

ORIGINAL: IanAM

Completely agree there - indeed, the whole issue of not having a scenario in which to play as the US/UK probably did harm to the sales of KP.

It doen't matter as I like playing as german.[:)]

"Panzer Vorwaerts!"[:D][:D][:D]

ORIGINAL: Pumba1968
It doen't matter as I like playing as german.[:)]

So do I, some of the time, and depending on a game scenario.

But the majority of Matrix's market must surely be in the US/UK/Australia/Canada etc. - and I'm willing to bet a big chunk of that market enjoy playing for their 'home side' - the Western Allies - and aren't as likely to buy a WWII game that doesn't involve that option...

Yes I think you are probably correct but the main purpose of a wargame is to offer good time as you can get the opportunity to establish your strategies and tactics, so whatever the country you are playing:it is the way I am thinking...[:)] The most important aspect is the theater of operations which allows an interesting challenge.

I have even been playing those British against the Emperor, too sad...[;)]and the French army.
"Vive l'Empereur".[:D]

Actually, I've never really found that much with wargames. At least that's not my impression.

I play a lot against the AI. And I'll play either side. As I get good at a game, I tend to take the weaker side for a challenge against the AI.

I've only played a few PBEM games over the years with various games. But I generally have not encountered many people who insist on playing only one nation.

If anything, I feel like I've run into players that are more comfortable playing Offense or Defense than I've encountered players who insist on playing a particular nation.

If you are curious, it might be interested to go read the PBEM forum on the Run 5 / SSG site. From that you might get a feel for how many players only want to play one side.

In the tournaments that Run5 does, the sides are handed out randomly. I've seen other formats where two players play two games against each other, each taking both sides between the two games.

In general, I get the sense that most players play these games for the competition or problem-solving aspects than from any sort of nationalist point-of-view.

I haven't really paid much attention. Are many of SSG's or Matrix-published games translated to languages other than English?

Hi Gregor.

I really do appreciate what you guys do. And I'm not under any ideas that ya'll are getting rich and driving Ferraris.

However, when it starts getting to the point where I need a divorce settlement to afford to buy games, I'm at least going to whine a bit about it.

OK, I'm exaggerating ... a bit.

I've said it before out here, but I'll risk repeating it. I'll buy BIN at $60. But that's a compliment to you guys down at SSG. If I didn't think this was one of the best games to come out in years, I wouldn't buy it at that price.

I've said it before out here, but I'll risk repeating it. I'll buy BIN at $60. But that's a compliment to you guys down at SSG. If I didn't think this was one of the best games to come out in years, I wouldn't buy it at that price

Gregor,
Ditto on the best game part, and I would by this on a maybe basis exceipt for the new found pbem component... wow this is great, hope it gets released soon

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

Nice theory of game publishing, but it fails to take into account the difference between the relative and the absolute. The employees of SSG need a certain amount of money each year, just to be able survive and to keep making wargames.

For the record, Korsun Pocket, despite winning awards and stellar reviews, failed this basic test. I was only able to keep working for SSG by subsidising my employment with money from a divorce settlement. This is not a sustainable basis for business!

We have to be realistic about how many copies we are going to sell and that dictates the price we have to charge. The poster who suggested we could sell 40,000 copies with the right pricing was definitely dreaming.
Gregor

Cheers Gregor. But what you're looking for is venture capital, if not benevolent venture capital and it does exist (and I too wish to find it [;)] )

Fear not, myself and many colleagues across a variety of efforts in this hobby feel the same way and I must tell you, the catch cry that war game development is done "for the love of it" continues to wear thin on me.

Of course state of the art AI performance and innovative design does not come at the loss of merely a few hours labour (Aussie spelling for an Aussie).

However, you can't deny the reasonable expectation that by cutting the costs of production, one isn't entitled to expect some flow back to the consumer.

You've just got to look at the issue of increasing volume. Personally, the limited number of scens coupled with an escoteric subject matter, limited the potential of KP. It went so far as you having a confusing battle exacerbated by newbies not even understanding basic NATO iconography.

"Korsun" just didn't logically follow "Bulge" as a well-known campaign in the general war gaming public's eye.

Adam.

Hello Adam

I agree that Korsun may not had been the best batte to select but I have heard many gamers complain "What this battle again, why not do something new" When we selected Korsun Pocket no one had done that battle and we wanted to do something different. Battles in Normandy required a major design change. The whole SSG team really expanded the game system to make Battles in Normandy work so well. This is not just another battle in the same old system.

David

ORIGINAL: marc420

Actually, I've never really found that much with wargames. At least that's not my impression.

I play a lot against the AI. And I'll play either side. As I get good at a game, I tend to take the weaker side for a challenge against the AI.

I've only played a few PBEM games over the years with various games. But I generally have not encountered many people who insist on playing only one nation.

If anything, I feel like I've run into players that are more comfortable playing Offense or Defense than I've encountered players who insist on playing a particular nation.

In general, I get the sense that most players play these games for the competition or problem-solving aspects than from any sort of nationalist point-of-view.

I haven't really paid much attention. Are many of SSG's or Matrix-published games translated to languages other than English?

OK...perhaps it's just me then [:)]

I don't think it's nationalistic though, just that I think I identify with 'my' nation more, and so I think it adds to the immersion in and enjoyment of the game.

Possibly it's only because I tend to know more about 'my' side and some of the individuals involved - and that is probably because I have learnt and read around the subjects from the British point of view, from books written mainly by UK/US authors...

Either that or I've got a Nelson/Wellington/Montgomery complex. [:D]

Anyway...enough of thaking this thread off-topic!

Any idea about the price for "game on demand" option?[&:]please[&o][&o][&o]

A frightening post by Gregor_SSG. If a well established outfit like SSG which has received superlative reviews for an outstanding game like Korsun Pocket is struggling to meet ends meet, we have some reasons to be worried about the future of wargaming. I've seen Matrix Games in bargain bins selling for a pittance. I'm sure the decision to go digital is a sound one. If the only way to keep the games alive is to increase prices, well do it. Wargames can be played for years and years, they're not like shooters which become obsolete three months later.

By the way I am not American or an Anglo Saxon and so was glad to see a game like KP which addressed another subject than the Bulge/Arnhem/Normandy.


Cheers

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

ORIGINAL: JSS

Adam,

BiN's price is an incredible value for what you're getting. I really think it's worth more than US$100.

Gents once again when it comes to price many are failing to realize the key point.

The retail cost of a game reflects:

1. Development
2. Production - a) Disc, b) Box, c) Manual, d) Barcoding, e) Packaging, f) Production labor
3. Legals
4. Wholesaler mark-up
5. Transport - a) Warehousing, b) Delivery, c) Import/export, d) Currency conversions
6. Merchandising
7. Retailer mark-up

Nice theory of game publishing, but it fails to take into account the difference between the relative and the absolute. The employees of SSG need a certain amount of money each year, just to be able survive and to keep making wargames.

For the record, Korsun Pocket, despite winning awards and stellar reviews, failed this basic test. I was only able to keep working for SSG by subsidising my employment with money from a divorce settlement. This is not a sustainable basis for business!

We have to be realistic about how many copies we are going to sell and that dictates the price we have to charge. The poster who suggested we could sell 40,000 copies with the right pricing was definitely dreaming.

If the SSG website gets cluttered with pictures of our new Ferraris, (the traditional choice of game developers who have suddenly made bucketloads of money), then you would be entitled to cry foul, but I can assure you that its not going to happen.

Gregor

I believe Matrix is doing an above average job bringing games to market in our capitalistic, market driven environment. An aspect that could be improved is the always tricky area of setting customer expections.

FWIW, I believe a possible overlooked profit opportunity is selling supplemental physical media such as game CDs, games boxes, maps, chart/tables, research notes, battlefield photos, related books (become an Osprey reseller?), etc. This could be one way to reduce the cost of the digital download maximizing customer buy-in while selling high margin experience enhancers to many of us who have the means to indulge our hobbies.

ORIGINAL: willgamer

I believe Matrix is doing an above average job bringing games to market in our capitalistic, market driven environment. An aspect that could be improved is the always tricky area of setting customer expections.

FWIW, I believe a possible overlooked profit opportunity is selling supplemental physical media such as game CDs, games boxes, maps, chart/tables, research notes, battlefield photos, related books (become an Osprey reseller?), etc. This could be one way to reduce the cost of the digital download maximizing customer buy-in while selling high margin experience enhancers to many of us who have the means to indulge our hobbies.

Agreed, a fine quality leather recliner with a diamond studded Matrix/SSG logo would be a perfect addition for those of us with champagne tastes and caviar budgets[:D][;)].

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG
Nice theory of game publishing, but it fails to take into account the difference between the relative and the absolute. The employees of SSG need a certain amount of money each year, just to be able survive and to keep making wargames.

For the record, Korsun Pocket, despite winning awards and stellar reviews, failed this basic test. I was only able to keep working for SSG by subsidising my employment with money from a divorce settlement. This is not a sustainable basis for business!

We have to be realistic about how many copies we are going to sell and that dictates the price we have to charge. The poster who suggested we could sell 40,000 copies with the right pricing was definitely dreaming.

If the SSG website gets cluttered with pictures of our new Ferraris, (the traditional choice of game developers who have suddenly made bucketloads of money), then you would be entitled to cry foul, but I can assure you that its not going to happen.

And I can certainly appreciate all of that. But at $60, you also impair my (and other fence-sitters') ability to support you. Please don't take this (or any prior post) as me trying to tell you how to run your business. It was just my perspective on how the price impacts my decision making process.

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol

Agreed, a fine quality leather recliner with a diamond studded Matrix/SSG logo would be a perfect addition for those of us with champagne tastes and caviar budgets[:D][;)].
[/quote]

Oh please. No diamonds. So nouveau riche. Subtle silver inlay. Nice. Will it be available by DD? Now that is a value added product. With a beer holder. For Dupont Saison or Duvel. None of JSS's stuff.

Of course I am writing this rubbish to pass the time staring at the forums to see BiN is ready for download. Now would be good.

Silver tarnishes too quickly, maybe platinum?[;)] Today is wait for BiN day, that's for sure. I even had a dream about my first turn last night[8|]...so...close...[&o]

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol

Silver tarnishes too quickly, maybe platinum?[;)] Today is wait for BiN day, that's for sure. I even had a dream about my first turn last night[8|]...so...close...[&o]

That's weird... I had a dream about your first turn also.