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RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:19 pm
by ctid98
ORIGINAL: Hirohito
The Empire didn't do too well with the "normal"strategy last time around. I'm looking for alternatives to what is known to be a losing strategy.
Hirohito
I thought the "normal strategy" worked very well it was only when Japan changed phase three (sit back, defend and wear them down), to include the Coral Sea and Midway engagements that it started going bad for them. Who know's what may have happenned if they'd of done what was originally planned. Maybe that could be your next strategy. I'm sure we could all pick holes in that too!!!! [:D]
I feel that a Russia first strategy could work, but only if America is kept out of the war. I don't see why they would be brought in given that they didn't bother too much when Germany invaded. If the British and Dutch then attack Japan to help their ally would FDR really have been able to convince Americans it was in their best interests to support them, after all, it was their chose to attack another opponent Probably better to sit back and make more from lend lease. Capitalist pigs.....[:'(]
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:58 pm
by Oznoyng
Hirohito is absolutely right in one thing, if in nothing else. This is a forum for discussing strategy and the "I question whether you even own the game" attacks aren't appropriate. Attack the strategy, not the person.
Ultimately, the best course would be for Hiro to PBEM someone. Failing that, I might do it if Mogami stays out of contact much longer.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:10 pm
by EUBanana
Out of curiosity, how many VPs would Russia be worth to Japan?
Given it's location it's going to be quite hard for the Allies to prise those bases out of Nip hands once they've been taken, so it's a fairly solid backing of VPs.
Maybe enough of a backing to tip the balance into a win. How much of the rest of the world would you actually need to capture after all to get an auto victory, assuming you have Russia?
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:22 pm
by Honda
Damn! Hirohito for president! In my short time as a forum visitor I don't remember anyone pissing off so many people. I for one think it's a good plan. Get the surprise and it's possible. It's a gamble but frees up the Kwantung army.
Bottom line: leave him alone people! If you don't like his ideas just say so. I haven't seen more taunting since the Holy Grail.
To Hirohito: if you're ever near Croatia at some point in your life, call me up for
.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:37 pm
by WiTP_Dude
ORIGINAL: Oznoyng
Hirohito is absolutely right in one thing, if in nothing else. This is a forum for discussing strategy and the "I question whether you even own the game" attacks aren't appropriate. Attack the strategy, not the person.
Sorry to disagree but Hirohito uses his "experience" with the game as proof his plans work. When questioned to show any evidence of this experience, he always fails to deliver. Clearly, he does not play the game or only plays a little bit. Therefore his plans can be ignored as far as WiTP goes.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:27 pm
by Tankerace
ORIGINAL: Hirohito
ORIGINAL: Tankerace
You ever tried land combat in Witp Hirohito? It would take a month or two just to march your troops where they need to go, let alone the battle, quelling resistance, defending, and then marching them back. That is about a 4 month operation at least, looking closer to 6 or 7 months.
You are flat wrong. Obviously you have never tried a land battle in WITP. You can move your troops into position to attack russia in less than two months.
I have used this strategy against other players. The key is that they don't know it is coming. For turn after turn nothing happens on the japanese side. Then one day there is a three pronged attack aimed at the Russian forces which slices them into three isolated groups which are then cut off from supplies. Each is annhilated in turn. Doesn't take four months or six.
It wouldn't take you that long to try it out for yourself and see.
Hirohito
Read my quote again Hirohito. I said move your troops into position, attack, and move them out again. You yourself said it takes 2 months to move into poition. If it takes 2 to get them there, it takes 2 to get em back. You just proved my point.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:32 pm
by Tankerace
ORIGINAL: Hirohito
ORIGINAL: Tankerace
I too am begining to suspect you either 1) don't own or 2) don't play Witp.
On submarines, It is this simple. As Japan, every transport is vital. And, if I put enough boats there, I can surely nail some.
Also, if you played WitP, you would know that submarines can operate off the home islands early in the war with relative impunity. Only in 1943, when Japan develops better ASW, does it become difficult. In my current game, I have 25 US, 5 Dutch, and 3 British submarines from Shanghai to Etorufu. My only sub loss was a Dutch boat off Khota Baru, in Malay. They have been on station for roughly a week now. They have netted 3 ships, for no loss. In addition, I am laying mines at various choke points, sure to nail some more.
My advice, play a game of witp, and then make suggestions on tactics.
I am not making suggestions on tactics, the stated purpose of this forum is to discuss strategy. I am discussing strategy. The argument you pose, that my strategy wont work because your submarines will sink all my transports can be used no matter what strategy is suggested. I just don't get your argument. No matter what strategy I came up with you could use this argument, unless the strategy was to put the entire fleet into dry dock and just sit in japan waiting for the inevitable.
If you think that submarines can operate with impunity in the shallow waters off the home islands then youhaven't played an opponent who knew how to conduct ASW operations.
What choke points are you going to send mine layers to that will hamper the Russia first strategy? Sea of Japan? South China Sea? What do you think IJN and the japanese air force will be doing while your mine layers sail into these waters?
again, you can make this argument nomatter what strategy is adopted. Even if I invade PI, DEI, and Malaya on turn 1 you can still mine choke points and deploy your submarines and send your B-17s. I fail to see how they will perform so differently than they did historically as to totally ruin the Russia first strategy.
I'm beginning to wonder if you have ever played WITP.
Hirohito
Remember this Hirohito, it is a general house rule among many players not to use ASW TFs, or to use small ones. Erego, to follow the spirit of this rule, you won't have several ASW TFs floating around. Remember, my point is to hamper the Russia first strategy, but the MAIN point is to use the 6 or so months you will give me to mine points, and set up good defenses to halt you from grabbing the PI and Malay. Again, you are not reading my posts. My mine laying
submarines will mine the waters around Japan. My actual Mine laying
surface ships will mine areas that you will have to transit to get to Malay, India, DEI, and PI. You're airforce won't be as effective there, especially if I can reinforce with P-40 groups from the States.
Again, my plan is not to "ruin" the Russia First Strategy. My plan is to take advantage of you doing that to speed up my advance across the Pacific, to force Japan to her knees. I cannot stop Russia from falling, that is a given. But it does give me 4 to 6 months to better prepare my Asiatic assets, to stop or delay the eventual invasion.
Before replaying, read my posts clearly.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:35 pm
by Tankerace
ORIGINAL: WiTP_Dude
ORIGINAL: Tankerace
Also, if you played WitP, you would know that submarines can operate off the home islands early in the war with relative impunity. Only in 1943, when Japan develops better ASW, does it become difficult. In my current game, I have 25 US, 5 Dutch, and 3 British submarines from Shanghai to Etorufu. My only sub loss was a Dutch boat off Khota Baru, in Malay. They have been on station for roughly a week now. They have netted 3 ships, for no loss. In addition, I am laying mines at various choke points, sure to nail some more.
This is not exactly true. The four depth charge DDs are fine for sinking submarines. Station about ten of them in Japan and put them out on patrols.
In WitP, I deploy about 60& of my Submarine assets around Japan. I usually lose no more than 1 or 2 a month. My sinkings (in 1941) aren't great, but they do get better. The point is Japan cannot afford losses. And since his transports will be committed to a singular course of action, The average of sinkings is almost assured to go up. I can replace submarine losses. He can't effectively replace transport losses.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:38 pm
by Tankerace
However, whether the plan will or won't work, I do commend Hirohito on one thing. He is thinking out of the box.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:14 pm
by tsimmonds
ORIGINAL: Tankerace
However, whether the plan will or won't work, I do commend Hirohito on one thing. He is thinking out of the box.
ORIGINAL: Hirohito
I am sick of being belittled, I won't be back.
Not anymore he isn't. Not here anyway. Can't really blame him either.
It's too bad really; I haven't thought there were many threads in The War Room that were more interesting than the three that he started.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:54 pm
by 2ndACR
I am sorry to see him go, but all of the "why won't it work" questions just irritate me, especially after we tell him why it will not work.
Yes, he can probably take Russia, but then he is screwed the rest of the game. I think me and Ron have progressed farther in a PBEM than just about any one else, and just by delaying the invasions of Java and Palembang until May 42 has caused me problems to no end. You just can not give an allied opponent the time to fortify the DEI, PI, Malaya.
You only have a limited amount of time to secure these areas for relative ease. Delay it for a couple of month? I think not. He is talking about not even invading any of these areas until March 42 at the earliest. No way. He would only have 2 months to secure the whole place before his economy grinds to a halt. Yes, he would have freed up the Manchuria army for use, but he will not have the PP's to use them to secure any of these areas. Yes he can use them in China and India (after months of marching) but with what will he supply them with?
I do not see it as a feasible plan IMO.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:16 pm
by Dereck
People said the "Atlantic Wall" was unbreakable; that if men were meant to fly god would have given them wings; that man would never walk on the moon; that the sound barrier was unbreakable.
Despite what all the "experts" said all of the above was accomplished.
Why don't all of you give Hirohito a break? If you have questions about his strategies attack the strategies and not the man.
You may agree or disagree with his strategies but he definitely gets a discussion going and through discussion is where ideas come from. I'm sure he's planted many ideas inside everybody's minds through his threads.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:24 pm
by WiTP_Dude
ORIGINAL: dereck
Why don't all of you give Hirohito a break? If you have questions about his strategies attack the strategies and not the man.
I agree Hirohito should not be "attacked", however his dubious assertion that he has vast experience with the game should be questioned. Many of his comments clearly suggest he has played very little WiTP, if at all. Therefore his "advice" on WiTP strategy is flawed from the get go. When he then makes statements that he knows this or that strategy will work because of his experience, it is clearly BS.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:26 pm
by Oznoyng
ORIGINAL: Tankerace
Remember this Hirohito, it is a general house rule among many players not to use ASW TFs, or to use small ones. Erego, to follow the spirit of this rule, you won't have several ASW TFs floating around. Remember, my point is to hamper the Russia first strategy, but the MAIN point is to use the 6 or so months you will give me to mine points, and set up good defenses to halt you from grabbing the PI and Malay. Again, you are not reading my posts. My mine laying submarines will mine the waters around Japan. My actual Mine laying surface ships will mine areas that you will have to transit to get to Malay, India, DEI, and PI. You're airforce won't be as effective there, especially if I can reinforce with P-40 groups from the States.
Again, my plan is not to "ruin" the Russia First Strategy. My plan is to take advantage of you doing that to speed up my advance across the Pacific, to force Japan to her knees. I cannot stop Russia from falling, that is a given. But it does give me 4 to 6 months to better prepare my Asiatic assets, to stop or delay the eventual invasion.
Before replaying, read my posts clearly.
I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate for a bit:
Have you looked at the map? You only have to transit one shallow water hex which is adjacent to a major Japanese port/airfield, in order to move supply and troops from Japan to Manchukuo. (Sasebo -> port west of Pusan)
If you want to come into that threat environment to hunt transports, you are creating an ideal situation for the IJN. Shallow water. One hex from a major airfield capable of conducting *serious* ASW patrols *and* a major port capable of saving most torpedo'd ships? If I had to pick an ASW battleground, that'd be the one I'd pick.
Oh, and by the way, if you mine that one hex, the IJ player is justified in adding a half dozen ASW capable MSW's to my TF escorts. Four to six mixed DD's, PC's, and PG's for standard escort, and a half dozen MSW to combat the heavy mining by the allies... Buh-bye subs. All of this assumes that the house rule for ASW TF's is in place - which I would not anticipate being the case.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:31 pm
by Zeta16
Well I think it is my turn to reply. IN the Dudev.Zeta game, he was taken a lot of the pacfic and china. He has taken most of the DEI except Palembang. However, he has not taken Sinapore or Rangoon. From there I am starting to pound his HI and oil and resources. I don't know how much damage it is doing, but if he takes Palembang I will turn it into rubble. He has lost over 600 ships and many aircraft. I have no clue what his supply and HI production is with out taking all of the DEI by late October. So I think if you neglect things in the DEI, Malya, and the phillipines for a while it is really going to cost the Japanese. They will have a shortage of good pilots quick. Then things don't always go the way you want them to go.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:45 pm
by 2ndACR
I need to amend my comment. me and Ron are in July 42. but we are playing single day turns. I forgot some people are playing multi-day turns so they are past us.
We are currently knocking out a month every week of real time. Averaging 4-6 turns per day sometimes more.
My ship loss is currently about 120, mainly AP's. That is what happens when you give the Allied player time to fortify his hold on the SRA. Most of my ship losses have come in the last 3 months. I have MANY more banged up and in for repairs.
I have had 2 divisions completely mangled, 2 more that will need extensive refit to get up to strength. Ron has inserted alot of supply, air units and at least 2 Aus brigades and maybe an Aussie division into Java. I am paying a fearful price for delaying the invasion.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:01 pm
by Mynok
From an overall strategic perspective, I don't quite understand why he wants to go to India after China. It would seem more prudent once China is finished to take SE Asia and the DEI/PI with all those freed up divisions. Sure, it will be harder than in early 42, and the DEI oil resources may be far more heavily damaged once taken due to ENG buildup during the delay, but that would be in some portion counteracted by the additional Soviet and Chinese resources/oil. Heck, Java probably becomes somewhat unnecessary to take with the Soviet oil on board.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:03 pm
by Oznoyng
ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
I am sorry to see him go, but all of the "why won't it work" questions just irritate me, especially after we tell him why it will not work.
Yes, he can probably take Russia, but then he is screwed the rest of the game. I think me and Ron have progressed farther in a PBEM than just about any one else, and just by delaying the invasions of Java and Palembang until May 42 has caused me problems to no end. You just can not give an allied opponent the time to fortify the DEI, PI, Malaya.
You only have a limited amount of time to secure these areas for relative ease. Delay it for a couple of month? I think not. He is talking about not even invading any of these areas until March 42 at the earliest. No way. He would only have 2 months to secure the whole place before his economy grinds to a halt. Yes, he would have freed up the Manchuria army for use, but he will not have the PP's to use them to secure any of these areas. Yes he can use them in China and India (after months of marching) but with what will he supply them with?
I do not see it as a feasible plan IMO.
Actually, capture of resources and more importantly Oil from Ohka would lessen the impact of the delay. You would capture Ohka's 400 oil centers, plus the accumulated Oil stockpiles in capturing Russia. With the undamaged captured oil, you could run the Japanese economy for two more months. Adding Ohka would add 2400 oil per day = 72,000 per month or roughly 420000 oil for the 6 months til May 42. That adds another 2 months, so your window becomes 4 months, not 2.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:07 pm
by Honda
There. You scared him away. You happy now guys? Now I have to go back to bothering Pauk for
If that's what you wanted - shame on you![:-]
BTW, the whole Russia idea holds water and sure beats the hell out of waiting for the slow kill to come.
Victory points for president!
Noone can say for sure what happens in 43+. How much victory points, save the autovictory, will ensure Jap victory? No answers. And all that multiplied by the fact that noone's finished the game yet. It's young and will be for at least a year or so. There are no certanties yet. Japan has a little for everybody and if she can concentrate it in one spot things could get ugly for the Allies.
What does it all come down to? Individual skill. Who ever manages to get just a tiny percent more out of the engagements will win. No matter what strategy.
RE: would someone total the Russian resources and post it here?
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:12 pm
by moses
I think that while the idea is historically unsound it will probably be successful in the game and I would like to see someone try it. It will demonstrate what I think most already know. Continintal land combat needs to be slowed down.