Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: mikemike

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

There are spare nationality slots in the data, but I have no idea if they would be treated as Axis or Allied.

I just tested that under 1.40, for a similar reason. I´d done that already under 1.21, but the results are subtly different. There are three unassigned nationalities, N3, N17 and N19. I assigned those nationalities to several LCU´s with random leaders. Using N19 will crash the game as it loads the data. N17 is Communist Chinese; appropriate leaders will be assigned. N3, under 1.21, seems to have been neutral, at least its units were colored yellow, and the leaders were all WO´s with names that sounded Hungarian. Now, under 1.4, N3 units are red (Japanese) and have Staff Officers as leaders. The nationality is simply omitted in all texts (Nationality name is a Null string). Hope this helps.

I peaked inside the program's literal pool and found the Nationalities. They are a series of irregular length strings! This means that they are not an array but a series of linked values - and that means that missing ones CAN NOT SAFELY BE USED. Results of their use would tend to vary from computer to computer or execution to execution. Sometimes nothing, sometimes boom. Did not find anything on the definition of Allied or Japan, probably a range check something like ">3 = allied else japanese".

Note however that N17 is defined, as Communist China

These are the actual values from the program (the ... represent nulls). They are in reverse order:

Canada..Communist China.Philippines.Commonwealth....Indian..Soviet..Chinese.Dutch...French..British.New Zealand.Australian..US Marines..US Army.US Navy.IJ Navy.IJ Army.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Did not find anything on the definition of Allied or Japan, probably a range check something like ">3 = allied else japanese".

Note however that N17 is defined, as Communist China

These are the actual values from the program (the ... represent nulls). They are in reverse order:

Canada..Communist China.Philippines.Commonwealth....Indian..Soviet..Chinese.Dutch...French..British.New Zealand.Australian..US Marines..US Army.US Navy.IJ Navy.IJ Army.

That explains the crashes when using N19. The Nationality_Name pointer for N19 would have a negative offset to the start of the string data. The library function that accesses the string data probably can´t handle that and just crashes.

The N3 effect is harder to explain. I´d guess that the nationality names are defined as one string in the program code and that the program, on initialization, builds an array of pointers pointing to the individual names. On the other hand, that array of pointers might just be hard-coded. I´d bet this is organized as an array at this level - much faster (and simpler) to access than walking through a linked list. Anyway, the pointer for N3 seems to point to a null, either intentionally or because the code building the pointer array works that way. Therefore, N3 should probably be safe to use - variations in runtime behaviour are usually compiler-dependent and we all use the same linked EXE (no MAC version, as far as I know). Perhaps we should lobby 2by3 to amend the nationality string with the next patch. N3=German would probably be a good choice - at least I can´t think of another Japanese ally that would qualify. All in all a strange way of doing things - they might as well have hard-coded the names as an array and saved themselves the extra code.

MINEKAZE

Yakaze must be removed from the database, she was target ship.

12/41
4 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 2 C + 1 R]
4 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [2 twin L/RS]
6 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo [2 twin C + 1 twin F, 6 torps]
4 x Type 95 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 36 dc]

7/42 (APD CONVERSION)
Capacity – 250
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 1 C]
12 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [4 triples R/LS ]

Akikaze, Hakaze and Tachikaze were converted to APDs in july 42 in Rabaul. when upgrade becomes possible, player converts those 3 ships (or more if desired, of course) to APDs, other ships in class skip this upgrade and pass thru series of two upgrades in 10/42 and remain destroyers. This gives player a possibility to convert APD ships back to DD with later upgrades, but this is unavoidable….

10/42
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 1 C]
8 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [1 twin F + 2 twin L/RS + 1 twin R]
4 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo [1 twin C + 1 twin F, 4 torps]
4 x Type 2 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 36 dc]

8/43
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 1 C]
12 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [1 twin F + 2 triple L/RS + 2 twin R]
4 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo [1 twin C + 1 twin F, 4 torps]
4 x Type 2 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 36 dc]

4/44
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 1 C]
16 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [2 twin F + 2 triple L/RS + 2 twin, 2 single R]
4 x Type 2 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 36 dc]
1 x Radar type 13

3/45 (not 100% historical)
1 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 C + 1 R]
20 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [2 twin, 2 single F + 2 triple L/RS + 2 twin, 4 single R]
1 x 3in A/S Mortar [1x F Ammo -18]
4 x Type 2 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 48 dc]
1 x Radar type 13

MINEKAZE (APD)

12/41
Endurance – 3400
Fuel – 280
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 1 R]
4 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [2 twin L/RS]
2 x 13.2mm Type 93 AAMG [1 twin C]

5/44
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 1 R]
16 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [4 triples R/LS + 1 twin R + 1 twin F] ]
1 x Radar type 13

KAMIKAZE

12/41
Max. speed – 34
End – 3600
3 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 1 C + 1 R]
5 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [1 single F + 1 twin LS + 1 twin RS]
2 x 13.2mm Type 93 AAMG [1 twin C]
6 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo [2 twin C + 1 twin F, 8 torps]
4 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo [2 twin C, Ammo -1]
2 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo [1 twin F, Ammo -2]
4 x Type 95 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 36 dc]

9/42
3 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 1 C + 1 R]
10 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [1 twin F + 1 triple LS + 1 triple RS + 1 twin R]
4 x 13.2mm Type 93 AAMG [1 twin LS + 1 twin RS]
6 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo [3 twin C, 6 torps]
4 x Type 2 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 36 dc]

11/43
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 1 R]
15 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [1 triple F + 1 triple, 1 twin LS + 1 triple, 1 twin RS + 1 twin R]
4 x 13.2mm Type 93 AAMG [1 twin LS + 1 twin RS]
2 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo [2 twin C, 4 torps]
4 x Type 2 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 36 dc]

11/44
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 1 R]
20 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [1 triple, 2 twin F + 1 triple, 1 twin LS + 1 triple, 1 twin RS + 1 triple R]
4 x 13.2mm Type 93 AAMG [1 twin LS + 1 twin RS]
2 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo [2 twin C, 4 torps]
4 x Type 2 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 36 dc]

My previous notes posted several months ago, I deleted everything that was already fixed/added.

IJN submarines.

Type KD6A/B (Kaidai 6a/b)

- Submarines I-171 - I-175 should have 4,7in/45 3YT gun instead of 3,9in/50 type 88.
- Submarines I-168 – I-173 should have 1 x 2x13,2mm type 93 AA mg, and I-174 – I-175 subs should have 2 x 2x13,2mm mgs.

Type KD7 (Kaidai 7)

- These subs had twin 25mm mount not single.

Type J1 (Junsen 1)

I-5, I-6 were the first Japanese submarines designed to carry an aircraft and if aircraft containers on I-5 were removed and additional gun was mounted in 1940, I-6 entered pacific war duly equipped for air reconnaissance missions.

- I-6 should have 1 aircraft capacity and 1 Glen float plane, 4 forward tubes with 3 ammo, 2 aft tubes with 3 ammo and one 4,7in/45 3YT gun.
- Subs I-2, I-4 and I-6 had one 13,2mm type 93 AA mg mount

Type J3 (Junsen 3)

- In game these subs have two twin 13,2mm mounts and one single 13,2mm mg, this should be changed to one twin 25mm mount, one twin and one single 13,2mm mgs mounts.

Type KRS (Kirai-sen)

- Durability should be changed from 20 to 24.

Maneuverability of the following types should be changed
Type STo – 51,
Type AM – 52,
Type A2 – 54,
Type A1 – 56,
Type B3/4 – 57,
Type B2 – 58,
Type B1 – 58,
Type C3/4 – 57,
Type C2 – 59,
Type C1 – 59,
Type KD7 – 63,
Type KD6A/B – 64,
Type KD5 – 65,
Type J3 – 58,
Type J1 – 63,
Type KRS – 59,
Type ST – 92,
Type STS – 95,
Type L4 – 73. .


Type C2 (Kaidai Hei-Gate C2)

I-49, I-50, I-51 - these are the phantom subs, none was even laid down. Order for them was really placed in 1941, under fleet replacement program, but it was canceled in may 1943. However these are in the game, this supposes that in game I-48 will be laid down in september ’43, I-50 in july ’43 and I-51 in february ’44. If these subs were included to beef up IJN submarine force in 1945, when it probably will be already mauled, then I must admit that this is strange choice. May be it would better to give player submarines which were really laid down and by spring ’45 were almost ready. I-404 was 95% ready when she was sunk by US carrier planes in Kure on 28 july ’45; I-1 (type AM) 70% ready; I-15 (type AM) 90% ready; I-204 90% ready; I-205 -80% ready; I-206 was 85% ready in march ’45 etc. Or to launch more perspective boats from the canceled order list than these kaidais in late 43, there were so many plans… any ideas?

Where is japanese transport submarine fleet?

28 IJN transport submarines are missing, (since IJA vessels are completely ignored there is no wonder why 26 army transport submarines also weren’t included).

The number of transport submarines Japanese built during the war and the number of subs converted ito undersea transports actually deserves additional ship type – SST, transport submarine.

Type Sen-Ho (2 subs - I-351, I-352)
Max Speed - 16
Cruise Speed - 10
Mvr - 59
Dur- 34
End- 27 500
Fuel- 750
Cap - 365 tons (FUEL)
Torps - 4x 21in type 95 –F (1)
AA guns - 2 x 3x25mm type 96 + 1 x 1x25mm type 96

Type Sen-Yuso-Sho (12 subs - Ha-101 – Ha-112)
Max Speed - 10
Cruise Speed - 8
Mvr- 61
Dur - 31
End - 3 500
Fuel - 75
Cap - 60
AA guns - 1 x 25mm type 96

26 army sub transports (12 of Yu-1 type and 14 of Yu-1001 type).

Part 2. Minelayers

OOB corrections

Ikitsushima

Wrong refit. 3in/40 type 88 guns were replaced with 2 x 2x25mm AA guns before the war actually, not in 44. In 1944 ship was refitted in order to enlarge her mines holds, that was the main goal of the refit, in 1944 number mines was increased from 300 to 400, besides that 3 x 2x13,2mm AA mgs were added.

Ma-1

Mines type 4 (1944 design) should be replaced with type 93 mines.

Hatsutaka

Cruise speed should be 10 instead of 15. In 1943-44 must be refitted as escorts, mine laying equipment should be dismounted and 2 DCT should be installed (36 depth charges type 2)

Hirashima

Wrong refit. There should be no DCT in original minelayer configuration. And after refit 9/43 ships should have no minelaying capabilities, their endurance must be increased up to 5000 nm (with 55 fuel) 2x DCT (36 depth charges type 2) must be added.

Sokuten

Hirashima, Sokuten and Ajiro types were in fact one ML class – Sokuten. In wartime Japanese classification table they were all listed as Sokuten class ships (different replacement programs 3,4,5), multipurpose kaidai auxiliaries, capable to lay mines and nets of all types. If Hirashima class vessels are supposed to be refitted in game, why Sokuten class refit is not modeled? Sokutens were refitted in the same time as Hirashima class. In 9/43 configuration these ships should not have mines and instead should be equipped with 2 DTC (36 depth charges type 2).

Toshima

These ships represented in their 1944 configuration but without DTCs. In 1941 they should have 1x 3in/40 type 88 gun and 60 mines type 93, after refit in 1944 they should have 1x 3in/40 type 88 gun, 120 mines type 4, 4 DTC (18 depth charges type 2) and one twin 13,2mm AA mg.

Natsushima

Amalgamation of 3 ML classes - Nasami, Tsubame and Sarushima. Because of that, correct refit cannot be modeled. Kamome, Tsubame and Sarushima lost their mine laying equipment in 1944 and were refitted as escort vessels with 2 DTC (36 depth charges type 2).

Yaeyama

This ML was also converted in 1944. Mines hardware was removed and 2 DTC (36 depth charges type 2) installed.

Shirataka

If all previous types really were minelayers during the war, this ship became a patrol gunboat already in 1940. This ship should have only one 120mm gun and 6 DTC (54 depth charges type 95).

Katsuriki

Since 1936 Katsuriki was in service as an oceanographic vessel of navy department W, in january ’42 was refitted again, this time as an rescue ship. Probably should not be modeled at all.

Missing types

Hatsushima Class

These were probably not included because this type was designed as a cable layer type, but in fact these 4 ships were multipurpose and were capable to lay mines as well. The only problem was their awfully small mine holds, which were enlarged only in 1943-44.

Hatsushima – commissioned 10/1940, Kawasaki, Kobe
Tsurushima – commissioned 03/1941, Kawasaki, Kobe
Odate – commissioned 07/1941, Harima SB
Tateishi - commissioned 08/1941, Harima SB

1940-1943 (originally cable layers)
1564 / 1670 tons, 2 boilers x 2300 hp, 14 knots,
1 x 76mm/40 gun, 1 x 2x13,2mm MG, 12 mines

1943-1944 (converted to minelayers)
1 x 76mm/40 gun, 6 x 25mm AA cannons, 2 x DTC 36 depth charges type 2, 120 mines type 93.

Tateishi – 09/1943
Odate – 11/1943
Hatsushima – 2/1944
Tsurushima – 3/1944

Kamishima Class

Simplified version of Ajiro/Sakuten type, only 1 was built, order for 18 additional ships under 43/44 replacement program, was canceled.

Kamishima – commissioned 06/12/1945, Sasebo Arsenal K

766 / 787 tons, 2 x 1900 hp diesel. 16,5 knots
2x 40mm/40 guns, 3 x 3x25mm AA cannons, 4 x DTCs (36 depth charges type 2), 120 mines type 93.

Ajiro Class

One Sakuten class ML is missing. I guess it was not included since Ajiro never was a minelayer, when all other Sakutens were converted to escorts Ajiro was still under construction and it was decided to complete this unit as escort vessel also.

Ajiro – commissioned 7/1943, Hitachi, Innoshima

717 / 733 tons, 2 x 3600 hp diesel, 21 knots, fuel - 35 tons; endurance 2550 miles at 14 knots; Crew – 100; 1 x 76mm/40 gun; 2 x 3x25mm AA cannons; 2 x DTC (36 depth charges type 2.)

Transport-minelayers

Two standard transports completed as minelayers.

Eijo - (2-DRS class conversion) - commissioned 3/45, Kiangnan Dock, Shanghai
Mino - (2-DT class conversion) - commissioned 8/45, Naniwa Dock, Osaka

3224 / 5118 tons, 12 knots, 1 x 120mm/40 gun, 14 x 25mm AA cannons; 380 mines type 93.

Amphibious and Landing Crafts

122 crafts of this type are missing… or better to say ignored.

T-1 Class (1st Class Fast Transports)
EDIT: Added

Type SS-1 Landing craft

22+5 units: SS-1 – SS-22 (commissioned 2/43 – 7/44) + 5 unfinished units

Japanese analog of LCM craft (even looked very much the same). Type was designed for Army, but all ships were under navy control.

Displacement – 933 tons, Dimensions – 63 x 9,6 x 2,8 meters. Power unit – 2 diesels 1800hp. Max Speed – 13,5 knots, cruise –12; Endurance – 2000 miles (12 knots). Armament – 1 x 76mm/40 gun + 1 mortar + 2 x 2x25mm. Load (project specification) – 4 x 15tons tanks + 1 transport vehicle + 150 men.

Type SB/SBD/SBT Landing craft

73 units: SBD type – 6 units commissioned in 1944, SBT type – 47 units commissioned 4/1944 – 3/1945, SB type – 20 units commissioned 5/1944 – 9/1944

Designed in late 1943 as SS-1 replacement type. By design and conception they were very close to LST-2 vessels, but a bit smaller and faster. Last letter in designation goes to type of the power unit, D for diesel and T for turbine. SB version ships were initially built for army but were transferred to navy in October 1944.

(SBT subtype) Displacement – 970/1004 tons, Dimensions – 80,5 x 9,1 x 2,9 meters. Power unit – 1 turbine, 2 boilers at 2500hp. Max Speed – 16 knots, cruise –14; Endurance – 2500 miles (14 knots). Armament – 1 x 76mm/40 gun + 2 x triple 25mm mount. Load – 218 tons of supplies, or 320 men, or 7 x 15tons tanks or 67 tons of cargo and 120 men.

Shinshu Maru

1 unit - commissioned in 1934.

First Japanese vessel designed for landing operations. Ship is in the game, but modeled as ordinary sAK. In fact she was designed as mothership vessel for smaller landing craft and as floatplane tender in the same time.

Displacement – 9000/11810 tons, Dimensions – 156 x 22 x 9 meters. 2 x turbines 8000hp, Max Speed – 19 knots, cruise – 12, Endurance – 16000 (at 9 knots) Armament – 8 x 76mm/40 gun + 3 x twin 25mm mount + 12 x 13,2mm AA mgs. 20 floatplanes (Shinshu Maru Daitai (!)), 2 catapults. Load – 29 Daihatsu landing barges and 2200 men.

Japanese thought that Shinshu Maru concept was quite successful and converted several standard transports into amphibious operations support ships, 7 ships total. 4 of these are in the game (as ordinary transports) Mayasan Maru, Tamatsu Maru, Hyuga Maru, Takatsu Maru, and 3 more are missing - Tokitsu Maru, Kibitsu Maru, Setsu Maru

Good site for quick OOB reference
IJN warships

Subchaser,

I feel there are some errors with the Minekaze info you gave.

The Japanese in '35 were already looking at converting the Minekazes or the Momis to APD duty and the Minekazes were chosen first as they were larger than the Momis.
It is true that in '42 3 of the Minekazes were fitted with a ramp so they could launch landing barges while moving but these ships should be rated as APDs from game start since that is what they were used for.

All of my sources say that all Minekazes were rearmed with 2-4.7" guns, 10-25mm AA, 2-TTs and 2 depth charge throwers by '39.
Except of course the Yakaze which was equipped with one 50mm gun and used as the control ship for the Settsu. The Yakaze should be removed.

Mike

ORIGINAL: Subchaser

My previous notes posted several months ago, I deleted everything that was already fixed/added.

IJN submarines.

Type KD6A/B (Kaidai 6a/b)

- Submarines I-171 - I-175 should have 4,7in/45 3YT gun instead of 3,9in/50 type 88.
- Submarines I-168 – I-173 should have 1 x 2x13,2mm type 93 AA mg, and I-174 – I-175 subs should have 2 x 2x13,2mm mgs.

Type KD7 (Kaidai 7)

- These subs had twin 25mm mount not single.

Type J1 (Junsen 1)

I-5, I-6 were the first Japanese submarines designed to carry an aircraft and if aircraft containers on I-5 were removed and additional gun was mounted in 1940, I-6 entered pacific war duly equipped for air reconnaissance missions.

- I-6 should have 1 aircraft capacity and 1 Glen float plane, 4 forward tubes with 3 ammo, 2 aft tubes with 3 ammo and one 4,7in/45 3YT gun.
- Subs I-2, I-4 and I-6 had one 13,2mm type 93 AA mg mount

Type J3 (Junsen 3)

- In game these subs have two twin 13,2mm mounts and one single 13,2mm mg, this should be changed to one twin 25mm mount, one twin and one single 13,2mm mgs mounts.

Type KRS (Kirai-sen)

- Durability should be changed from 20 to 24.

Maneuverability of the following types should be changed
Type STo – 51,
Type AM – 52,
Type A2 – 54,
Type A1 – 56,
Type B3/4 – 57,
Type B2 – 58,
Type B1 – 58,
Type C3/4 – 57,
Type C2 – 59,
Type C1 – 59,
Type KD7 – 63,
Type KD6A/B – 64,
Type KD5 – 65,
Type J3 – 58,
Type J1 – 63,
Type KRS – 59,
Type ST – 92,
Type STS – 95,
Type L4 – 73. .

Thanks - I'll look into these.

Type C2 (Kaidai Hei-Gate C2)

I-49, I-50, I-51 - these are the phantom subs, none was even laid down. Order for them was really placed in 1941, under fleet replacement program, but it was canceled in may 1943. However these are in the game, this supposes that in game I-48 will be laid down in september ’43, I-50 in july ’43 and I-51 in february ’44. If these subs were included to beef up IJN submarine force in 1945, when it probably will be already mauled, then I must admit that this is strange choice. May be it would better to give player submarines which were really laid down and by spring ’45 were almost ready. I-404 was 95% ready when she was sunk by US carrier planes in Kure on 28 july ’45; I-1 (type AM) 70% ready; I-15 (type AM) 90% ready; I-204 90% ready; I-205 -80% ready; I-206 was 85% ready in march ’45 etc. Or to launch more perspective boats from the canceled order list than these kaidais in late 43, there were so many plans… any ideas?

Already done. I agree on the 1-49 class and left it out. I suppose I-1, I-15, and I-16 may have been left out due to duplicate names and I-49/50/51 put in to replace them. However, I have done the exact same thing you recommended: drop I-49/50/51, include I-1/15/16 plus 404 and up to 206.

Where is japanese transport submarine fleet?

28 IJN transport submarines are missing, (since IJA vessels are completely ignored there is no wonder why 26 army transport submarines also weren’t included).

The number of transport submarines Japanese built during the war and the number of subs converted ito undersea transports actually deserves additional ship type – SST, transport submarine.

Type Sen-Ho (2 subs - I-351, I-352)
Max Speed - 16
Cruise Speed - 10
Mvr - 59
Dur- 34
End- 27 500
Fuel- 750
Cap - 365 tons (FUEL)
Torps - 4x 21in type 95 –F (1)
AA guns - 2 x 3x25mm type 96 + 1 x 1x25mm type 96

Type Sen-Yuso-Sho (12 subs - Ha-101 – Ha-112)
Max Speed - 10
Cruise Speed - 8
Mvr- 61
Dur - 31
End - 3 500
Fuel - 75
Cap - 60
AA guns - 1 x 25mm type 96

26 army sub transports (12 of Yu-1 type and 14 of Yu-1001 type).

I considered adding these (or at least the larger ones) but did not as I always play against the AI and I did not know if the AI could handle transport subs. Thought it might send them om patrol with no weapons. Can someone comment on this.

Part 2. Minelayers

OOB corrections

Ikitsushima

Wrong refit. 3in/40 type 88 guns were replaced with 2 x 2x25mm AA guns before the war actually, not in 44. In 1944 ship was refitted in order to enlarge her mines holds, that was the main goal of the refit, in 1944 number mines was increased from 300 to 400, besides that 3 x 2x13,2mm AA mgs were added.

Ma-1

Mines type 4 (1944 design) should be replaced with type 93 mines.

Hatsutaka

Cruise speed should be 10 instead of 15. In 1943-44 must be refitted as escorts, mine laying equipment should be dismounted and 2 DCT should be installed (36 depth charges type 2)

Hirashima

Wrong refit. There should be no DCT in original minelayer configuration. And after refit 9/43 ships should have no minelaying capabilities, their endurance must be increased up to 5000 nm (with 55 fuel) 2x DCT (36 depth charges type 2) must be added.

Sokuten

Hirashima, Sokuten and Ajiro types were in fact one ML class – Sokuten. In wartime Japanese classification table they were all listed as Sokuten class ships (different replacement programs 3,4,5), multipurpose kaidai auxiliaries, capable to lay mines and nets of all types. If Hirashima class vessels are supposed to be refitted in game, why Sokuten class refit is not modeled? Sokutens were refitted in the same time as Hirashima class. In 9/43 configuration these ships should not have mines and instead should be equipped with 2 DTC (36 depth charges type 2).

Toshima

These ships represented in their 1944 configuration but without DTCs. In 1941 they should have 1x 3in/40 type 88 gun and 60 mines type 93, after refit in 1944 they should have 1x 3in/40 type 88 gun, 120 mines type 4, 4 DTC (18 depth charges type 2) and one twin 13,2mm AA mg.

Natsushima

Amalgamation of 3 ML classes - Nasami, Tsubame and Sarushima. Because of that, correct refit cannot be modeled. Kamome, Tsubame and Sarushima lost their mine laying equipment in 1944 and were refitted as escort vessels with 2 DTC (36 depth charges type 2).

Yaeyama

This ML was also converted in 1944. Mines hardware was removed and 2 DTC (36 depth charges type 2) installed.

Shirataka

If all previous types really were minelayers during the war, this ship became a patrol gunboat already in 1940. This ship should have only one 120mm gun and 6 DTC (54 depth charges type 95).

Katsuriki

Since 1936 Katsuriki was in service as an oceanographic vessel of navy department W, in january ’42 was refitted again, this time as an rescue ship. Probably should not be modeled at all.

Missing types

Hatsushima Class

These were probably not included because this type was designed as a cable layer type, but in fact these 4 ships were multipurpose and were capable to lay mines as well. The only problem was their awfully small mine holds, which were enlarged only in 1943-44.

Hatsushima – commissioned 10/1940, Kawasaki, Kobe
Tsurushima – commissioned 03/1941, Kawasaki, Kobe
Odate – commissioned 07/1941, Harima SB
Tateishi - commissioned 08/1941, Harima SB

1940-1943 (originally cable layers)
1564 / 1670 tons, 2 boilers x 2300 hp, 14 knots,
1 x 76mm/40 gun, 1 x 2x13,2mm MG, 12 mines

1943-1944 (converted to minelayers)
1 x 76mm/40 gun, 6 x 25mm AA cannons, 2 x DTC 36 depth charges type 2, 120 mines type 93.

Tateishi – 09/1943
Odate – 11/1943
Hatsushima – 2/1944
Tsurushima – 3/1944

Kamishima Class

Simplified version of Ajiro/Sakuten type, only 1 was built, order for 18 additional ships under 43/44 replacement program, was canceled.

Kamishima – commissioned 06/12/1945, Sasebo Arsenal K

766 / 787 tons, 2 x 1900 hp diesel. 16,5 knots
2x 40mm/40 guns, 3 x 3x25mm AA cannons, 4 x DTCs (36 depth charges type 2), 120 mines type 93.

Ajiro Class

One Sakuten class ML is missing. I guess it was not included since Ajiro never was a minelayer, when all other Sakutens were converted to escorts Ajiro was still under construction and it was decided to complete this unit as escort vessel also.

Ajiro – commissioned 7/1943, Hitachi, Innoshima

717 / 733 tons, 2 x 3600 hp diesel, 21 knots, fuel - 35 tons; endurance 2550 miles at 14 knots; Crew – 100; 1 x 76mm/40 gun; 2 x 3x25mm AA cannons; 2 x DTC (36 depth charges type 2.)

Transport-minelayers

Two standard transports completed as minelayers.

Eijo - (2-DRS class conversion) - commissioned 3/45, Kiangnan Dock, Shanghai
Mino - (2-DT class conversion) - commissioned 8/45, Naniwa Dock, Osaka

3224 / 5118 tons, 12 knots, 1 x 120mm/40 gun, 14 x 25mm AA cannons; 380 mines type 93.

Have some of this, including the Hatsushima (12 mines). Will check out all the upgrades.

Amphibious and Landing Crafts

122 crafts of this type are missing… or better to say ignored.

T-1 Class (1st Class Fast Transports)
EDIT: Added

Type SS-1 Landing craft

22+5 units: SS-1 – SS-22 (commissioned 2/43 – 7/44) + 5 unfinished units

Japanese analog of LCM craft (even looked very much the same). Type was designed for Army, but all ships were under navy control.

Displacement – 933 tons, Dimensions – 63 x 9,6 x 2,8 meters. Power unit – 2 diesels 1800hp. Max Speed – 13,5 knots, cruise –12; Endurance – 2000 miles (12 knots). Armament – 1 x 76mm/40 gun + 1 mortar + 2 x 2x25mm. Load (project specification) – 4 x 15tons tanks + 1 transport vehicle + 150 men.

Type SB/SBD/SBT Landing craft

73 units: SBD type – 6 units commissioned in 1944, SBT type – 47 units commissioned 4/1944 – 3/1945, SB type – 20 units commissioned 5/1944 – 9/1944

Designed in late 1943 as SS-1 replacement type. By design and conception they were very close to LST-2 vessels, but a bit smaller and faster. Last letter in designation goes to type of the power unit, D for diesel and T for turbine. SB version ships were initially built for army but were transferred to navy in October 1944.

(SBT subtype) Displacement – 970/1004 tons, Dimensions – 80,5 x 9,1 x 2,9 meters. Power unit – 1 turbine, 2 boilers at 2500hp. Max Speed – 16 knots, cruise –14; Endurance – 2500 miles (14 knots). Armament – 1 x 76mm/40 gun + 2 x triple 25mm mount. Load – 218 tons of supplies, or 320 men, or 7 x 15tons tanks or 67 tons of cargo and 120 men.

Got'm. We have 21 Type 1 Landing Ships, 22 Type ES, 6 Type 101 and 68 Type 103. I used class names from Watts but it appears T101 = SBD and T103=SB. I skipped unfinished Type ES Units and named the first two units (Koryu Maru, Banryu Maru) and numbered the rest SS-3 to SS-22. I came up with one more T103, have to check them again. Will also review them for your specs. I have 218 tons for the T103 but only 215 for the SBD (Watts). The T1 are implemented as APD.

Shinshu Maru

1 unit - commissioned in 1934.

First Japanese vessel designed for landing operations. Ship is in the game, but modeled as ordinary sAK. In fact she was designed as mothership vessel for smaller landing craft and as floatplane tender in the same time.

Displacement – 9000/11810 tons, Dimensions – 156 x 22 x 9 meters. 2 x turbines 8000hp, Max Speed – 19 knots, cruise – 12, Endurance – 16000 (at 9 knots) Armament – 8 x 76mm/40 gun + 3 x twin 25mm mount + 12 x 13,2mm AA mgs. 20 floatplanes (Shinshu Maru Daitai (!)), 2 catapults. Load – 29 Daihatsu landing barges and 2200 men.

Japanese thought that Shinshu Maru concept was quite successful and converted several standard transports into amphibious operations support ships, 7 ships total. 4 of these are in the game (as ordinary transports) Mayasan Maru, Tamatsu Maru, Hyuga Maru, Takatsu Maru, and 3 more are missing - Tokitsu Maru, Kibitsu Maru, Setsu Maru

Ron and I reviewed them and decided to leave them out. I do not think the game can handle the special attributes of these ships. Most (not all) could operate as aircraft transports and launch aircraft to land on captured airfields. Ignoring that capability, there is little to differentiate them from standard transports and we decided to leave them unaltered.

P.S. I'll put in the destroyer data and make sure Yakaze is out.

I always wondered what would have happened if the atomic bombs weren't dropped. Check this site out for a historical idea http://home.att.net/~sallyann4/invasion2.html

There would not have been an invasion; The Americans had just finished developing an agent which kills rice crops.

Many people think Truman was kind of a war criminal for using the atomic bombs but he was presented with both the bomb and the rice agent the same day after he took office.
There were estimates within the war department that the rice agent would kill 25-30 million people.

Mike

ORIGINAL: Subchaser

Type J1 (Junsen 1)

I-5, I-6 were the first Japanese submarines designed to carry an aircraft and if aircraft containers on I-5 were removed and additional gun was mounted in 1940, I-6 entered pacific war duly equipped for air reconnaissance missions.

- I-6 should have 1 aircraft capacity and 1 Glen float plane, 4 forward tubes with 3 ammo, 2 aft tubes with 3 ammo and one 4,7in/45 3YT gun.
- Subs I-2, I-4 and I-6 had one 13,2mm type 93 AA mg mount

I've looked this up in Conway and found:

I-5 = Type J1M. Once aircraft removed and 5.5in replaced was virtually identical to J1 (I 1-4) and I'll leave it as J1.
I-6 = Type J2. Retained aircraft as you noted. Will be implemented as a new class.

ORIGINAL: Subchaser

Part 2. Minelayers

Toshima

These ships represented in their 1944 configuration but without DTCs. In 1941 they should have 1x 3in/40 type 88 gun and 60 mines type 93, after refit in 1944 they should have 1x 3in/40 type 88 gun, 120 mines type 4, 4 DTC (18 depth charges type 2) and one twin 13,2mm AA mg.

Watts indicates that the Toshima (actually Natsushima) class carried depth charges PRIOR to the 1942 (or so) removal of the after 3" - perhaps as early as world war I. Matrix gives an armament of 1 3in, mines, no DC. I suspect they may have started the war with 2 3in, mines (60 on rails and 60 more stored below) and "a number" of depth charges.

Could you please check your sources for this.

ORIGINAL: Subchaser

MINEKAZE

12/41
4 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 2 C + 1 R]
4 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [2 twin L/RS]
6 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo [2 twin C + 1 twin F, 6 torps]
4 x Type 95 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 36 dc]

7/42 (APD CONVERSION)
Capacity – 250
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 1 C]
12 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [4 triples R/LS ]

Akikaze, Hakaze and Tachikaze were converted to APDs in july 42 in Rabaul. when upgrade becomes possible, player converts those 3 ships (or more if desired, of course) to APDs, other ships in class skip this upgrade and pass thru series of two upgrades in 10/42 and remain destroyers. This gives player a possibility to convert APD ships back to DD with later upgrades, but this is unavoidable….

10/42
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 1 C]
8 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [1 twin F + 2 twin L/RS + 1 twin R]
4 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo [1 twin C + 1 twin F, 4 torps]
4 x Type 2 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 36 dc]

8/43
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 1 C]
12 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [1 twin F + 2 triple L/RS + 2 twin R]
4 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo [1 twin C + 1 twin F, 4 torps]
4 x Type 2 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 36 dc]

4/44
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 1 C]
16 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [2 twin F + 2 triple L/RS + 2 twin, 2 single R]
4 x Type 2 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 36 dc]
1 x Radar type 13

3/45 (not 100% historical)
1 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 C + 1 R]
20 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [2 twin, 2 single F + 2 triple L/RS + 2 twin, 4 single R]
1 x 3in A/S Mortar [1x F Ammo -18]
4 x Type 2 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 48 dc]
1 x Radar type 13

I'm having some problems with the data for the Minekaze. My sources, while few, agree that NO DEPTH CHARGES were carried prior to the 1941/42 "escort" conversion. Excepting those units converted to Patrol Boat or Target Ship, the class was still armed with 4 x 4.7in, 2 x 7.7mm, 6 TT, 20 mines and auxiliary minesweeping gear. The escort coversion removed 2 4.7 and the mines, reduced TT to 2, and added 10 x 25mm and 36 depth charges. The two remaining 4.7 were upgraded to 50 calibre. Additional AA upgrades are not detailed but there is no mention of subsequent alterations to number of torpedo tubes.

Comments appreciated - I would like additional input before I make any changes.

Don

I find it amusing that we have 3 incompatible sources. Which is why i get ticked when someone says 'I read it, so it must be true!'.

The amount of contradictary historical writing is just immense.
I did not help that between the fire bombing and then Japanese officials destroying documents before the surrender, most writing was based off of testimony after the war or Allied intelligence sources.

I don't know what to tell you Don. My sources say that Japan, as the Fubuki's came on line, converted the Minekazes to APDs which seems to be Matrixs assumption as well.
Friedman says all were converted by '38 or so to 2-4.7, 2-TT, 10-25mm, and 2 DC racks. 20kts, 9000nm range.

Mike

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

I find it amusing that we have 3 incompatible sources. Which is why i get ticked when someone says 'I read it, so it must be true!'.

The amount of contradictary historical writing is just immense.
I did not help that between the fire bombing and then Japanese officials destroying documents before the surrender, most writing was based off of testimony after the war or Allied intelligence sources.

I don't know what to tell you Don. My sources say that Japan, as the Fubuki's came on line, converted the Minekazes to APDs which seems to be Matrixs assumption as well.
Friedman says all were converted by '38 or so to 2-4.7, 2-TT, 10-25mm, and 2 DC racks. 20kts, 9000nm range.

Mike

I agree on the armament but I thought that only the two Patrol Boats lost a boiler (and dropped to 20 knots). I'm leaning toward holding at the armament you listed but dropping the speed to 35 or 36 knots. Conway says oil capacity was reduced at the same time but gives no details. They already are at 3/4 of the Kamikazes, maybe Matrix has calculated that in. So hows:

2-4.7, 2-TT, 10-25mm, and 2 DC racks
35 knots
3000 endurance

Thats interesting that Conway says the oil capacity was lowered.
I do not own any Conway and i have not read his work but it is highly regarded.

Friedman says that all but 1 Minekaze was converted down to 20kts and says the conversions were done by '38. He says there was an increase in fuel supply.

Anyway, the new guns were the 10yt duel purpose not the 3yt guns as origionally mounted.

Mike

Oh, puck!
I just noticed in the Matrix standard scenario the Minekaze APDs have a 9250 range with less fuel than they carried as destroyers.
Now, removing 2 boilers would give you a bitbetter fuel economy but not that much. The only way to get that good with the fuel load given would be with 4 stroke diesels.

So, yeah, i like your figures. I have to watch what i copy. Much of my mod is just straight Matrix because i do not have the time or resources to research everything.

Friedman seems to be the only source saying the Japanese increased theminekaze fuel capacity so i think we go with the 3000 or so range figures that every one else gives.

Here is a little explanation of why i had all Minekazes as APDs and all Momis as PBs in my mod. I know that the Minekazes were being rebuilt as patrol/transport vessels and that the Japanese navy was looking at doing the same thing with the Momis but the Momis were origionally thought to small for the transport role so i set the Minekazes as APDs and the Momis as PBs.

I felt that was a good division of labour for the existing units.

Mike

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I'm having some problems with the data for the Minekaze. My sources, while few, agree that NO DEPTH CHARGES were carried prior to the 1941/42 "escort" conversion. Excepting those units converted to Patrol Boat or Target Ship, the class was still armed with 4 x 4.7in, 2 x 7.7mm, 6 TT, 20 mines and auxiliary minesweeping gear. The escort coversion removed 2 4.7 and the mines, reduced TT to 2, and added 10 x 25mm and 36 depth charges. The two remaining 4.7 were upgraded to 50 calibre. Additional AA upgrades are not detailed but there is no mention of subsequent alterations to number of torpedo tubes.

All sources I have indicate that all(!) Minekaze class destroyers were duly equipped for ASW duties prior the war, they had standard DC set, 2 racks 2 throwers type 94, 36 depth charges (types 88,91,95), sonar type 93 mod.1 and hydrophone type 92, they already were fully equipped (by IJN standards) escort vessels, that was their main job in 41/42,

I’ve looked thru their TROMs again:

Main caliber and AA refits

Original
4 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun,
3 x ,7mm Type 50 AAMG,

Yakaze (10/37)
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
2 x 13.2mm Type 93 AAMG,

Minekaze, Sawakaze (4/40), Okikaze (9/41)
4 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
4 x 13.2mm Type 93 AAMG,

Shiokaze, Nokaze, Namikaze, Yukaze and Numakaze (9/38), Tachikaze, Hakaze, Hokaze и Akikaze (1/39):
4 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
4 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun,

Shimakaze and Nadakaze (9/38), Yukaze (9/43):
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
10 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun;
2 x 13.2mm Type 93 AAMG,

Nokaze and Numakaze (10/42), Akikaze (6/42), Tachikaze (8/42) and Hakaze (9/42):
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
6 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun,

Namikaze (12/42):
3 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
10 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun,

Yakaze (10/42):
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
4 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun;
1x 50мм AA gun,

Nadakaze and Shimakaze (11/41)
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
4 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun,

Akikaze (11/42)
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
8 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun,

Shiokaze (7/43)
4 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
12 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun,

Tachikaze (7/43)
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
10 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun,

Minekaze (8/43)
4 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
10 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun;
4 x 13.2mm Type 93 AAMG,

Sawakaze (10/43)
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
10 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun,

Nadakaze (2/44)
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
12 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun,

Nokaze (4/44)
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
10 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun;
5 x 13.2mm Type 93 AAMG,

Nadakaze (8/44)
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
16 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun,

Yakaze (10/44)
4 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun;
1 x 50мм AA gun,

Sawakaze (12/44)
1 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
10 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun;

Namikaze (3/45)
1 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
12 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun;
8 x 13.2mm Type 93 AAMG,

Shiokaze (8/45)
1 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun;
16 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun;

Torpedo and ASW refits

Original
6 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo (12 torps),
20 mines

Shimakaze, Minekaze, Sawakaze and Okikaze (4/28)
6 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo (12 torps),
2 x DCR (18 dc),

Yakaze (10/37)
2 x DCR (18 dc),

Yukaze, Shiokaze, Namikaze, Nokaze and Numakaze (9/38), Tachikaze, Hakaze, Akikaze and Hokaze (1/39), Sawakaze and Minekaze (4/40), Okikaze (9/41)
6 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo (6 torps),
2 x DCR + 2 x DCT type 94 (36 dc),

Shimakaze and Nadakaze (9/38), Numakaze и Nokaze (10/42), Namikaze (12/42):
2 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo (6 torps);
2 x DCR + 2 x DCT type 94 (36 dc),

Sawakaze (10/43):
4 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo (4 torps),
2 x DCR + 2 x DCT type 94 (48 dc),

Yakaze (10/44):
2 x DCT type 3 (8 dc),

Yukaze (12/44):
4 x 21in Type 92 Torpedo (6 torps),
2 x DCR + 2 x DCT type 94 (36 dc),

Sawakaze (12/44):
2 x DCR (48 dc),
ASWRS (9 tubes, 27 charges),

Namikaze (3/45)
2 x Kaiten

Shiokaze (8/45)
4 x Kaiten

Considering all the input, and not wanting to make several sub-classes, how about this for the Minekazes:

Original (class 075)
2 x 4.7in/50 QF Gun (Watts)
10 x 25mm (triples Port/Starboard, twins fore/aft)
2 7.7 MG (singles, centerline)
2 TT, no reloads
4 DCT, 36 Depth Charges
No Mines
35 Knots
3000 Endurance


Then skip the 10/42 and 8/43 upgrades on Subchaser's list and keep the last two (but 50 cal guns):

4/44
2 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 F + 1 C]
16 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [2 twin F + 2 triple L/RS + 2 twin, 2 single R]
4 x Type 2 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 36 dc]
1 x Radar type 13

3/45 (not 100% historical)
1 x 4.7in/45 3YT Gun [1 C + 1 R]
20 x 25mm Type 96 AA Gun [2 twin, 2 single F + 2 triple L/RS + 2 twin, 4 single R]
1 x 3in A/S Mortar [1x F Ammo -18]
4 x Type 2 Depth Charge [2 twin R, 48 dc]
1 x Radar type 13


Here is the comment on fuel capacity from Conway: "... ships had hulls strengthened, ballast added, and oil fuel capacity reduced in 1937/9."

Don

Hi Mike

The Japanese in '35 were already looking at converting the Minekazes or the Momis to APD duty and the Minekazes were chosen first as they were larger than the Momis.

I’m not aware of any such plans in 35, at least nothing about possible conversions, after Shanghai incident in 1932, 30th DesDiv expierinece was seriously studied and conclusions were made, destroyer training program was modified, but there were no conversion plans, even for Minekaze/Kamikaze

It is true that in '42 3 of the Minekazes were fitted with a ramp so they could launch landing barges while moving but these ships should be rated as APDs from game start since that is what they were used for.

34th DesRon destroyers (Akikaze, Hakaze Tachikaze) were used as fast transports for the first time only after their APD refit, when sqn. was transferred to the South fleet in late june ‘42, before that, these ships were used for crew training, supplying destroyers of 1st and 2nd fleets with qualified navy specialists, their organic crews were only 30-50 men big. The lack of combat experience and skeleton crews were the main reasons why these ships were chosen for the conversion. They should start as ordinary destroyers, not APDs.

All of my sources say that all Minekazes were rearmed with 2-4.7" guns, 10-25mm AA, 2-TTs and 2 depth charge throwers by '39.

This is Nadakaze/Shimakaze patrol gunboat refit of 1938. They were patrol gunboats P-1 and P-2 from 1938 till 11/41 when they were converted to APDs

ORIGINAL: Subchaser

34th DesRon destroyers (Akikaze, Hakaze Tachikaze) were used as fast transports for the first time only after their APD refit, when sqn. was transferred to the South fleet in late june ‘42, before that, these ships were used for crew training, supplying destroyers of 1st and 2nd fleets with qualified navy specialists, their organic crews were only 30-50 men big. The lack of combat experience and skeleton crews were the main reasons why these ships were chosen for the conversion. They should start as ordinary destroyers, not APDs.

I like the idea of splitting these three off as a separate class with an upgrade path to APD - perhaps for convenience sake to merge with PB 1/2.

All of my sources say that all Minekazes were rearmed with 2-4.7" guns, 10-25mm AA, 2-TTs and 2 depth charge throwers by '39.

All of mine say this too, except they say "by 1941/42".

Don