AI for MWiF - Germany

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany - GRAND STRATEGY AIO

Post by coregames »

ORIGINAL: composer99

Any other '40 Barb experiences anyone can share?

In one game, we were most of the way through Spain. Seeing this, the Russian player deliberately denuded his garrison to tempt us into a war, in an effort to save Gibralter. We were doing so well we took him up on his offer and declared war in Sep/Oct '40, trying to have our cake and eat it too. At first the going was slow, but we brought in reserves as they were freed up in Spain. At the height of our Russian expansion, we were two hexes from Moscow, and almost aligned Turkey with para, div and transported units on the coast. Though we never conquered Spain or took Gibralter (although we did get Suez), a dominant Japan helped us win the game convincingly. It helped that the CW became so obsessed with keeping Gibralter that he seemed to ignore everything else.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by coregames »

In our current game, I noticed an issue that may be relevant to the AI. The German player had a marine adjacent to Dover, and the CW left the hex open. Germany seemed poised to attack Spain, but now is trying everything he can to invade without Gibralter (6 corp currently in the UK).

After a moment of fear, we realized that the Axis builds had been geared towards a Gibralter strategy, and that the Germans alone can't take out the UK before the US comes into the war with access to the Med. With inappropriate forces for Barbarossa, the Germans may just have been too clever.

The German AI should not get suckered into crossing the Channel at the expense of a larger strategic plan. I'm sure this principle applies in lots of situations, for all major powers. Could the AI have something like a 'trap smeller'? Exploiting an apparent oversight on the part of the enemy isn't necessarily a good move.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: coregames

In our current game, I noticed an issue that may be relevant to the AI. The German player had a marine adjacent to Dover, and the CW left the hex open. Germany seemed poised to attack Spain, but now is trying everything he can to invade without Gibralter (6 corp currently in the UK).

After a moment of fear, we realized that the Axis builds had been geared towards a Gibralter strategy, and that the Germans alone can't take out the UK before the US comes into the war with access to the Med. With inappropriate forces for Barbarossa, the Germans may just have been too clever.

The German AI should not get suckered into crossing the Channel at the expense of a larger strategic plan. I'm sure this principle applies in lots of situations, for all major powers. Could the AI have something like a 'trap smeller'? Exploiting an apparent oversight on the part of the enemy isn't necessarily a good move.
This isn't really a concern for me, since basically the AIO will evaluate moves as good, bad, or possibly good/bad. For example, if you can overrun a disorganized air unit, then do it because it is basically always good (unless something even juicier is available). Crossing into Britain falls into the possible category, and is evaluated in terms of strategic, operational, and tactical considerations.

Invading Britain requires a lot of operational elements, and though I will try to have the AIO hedge its bets through its choice of builds (if for no other reason than to keep the CW nervous), the AIO will not go all-out for SeaLion unless a substantial number of those elements are in place.

What I am much more concerned about, is related to the question you posed: not changing the strategic plan unless a strong motivation (positive or negative) is present. In particular, I am worried about oscilating between two strategic plans as die rolls come up good or bad from turn to turn. If happy things happen in the Med for the Axis, then Gibraltar looks inviting, but after a couple of bad die rolls, the Axis AIO abandons that plan and switches to an earliest possible Barbarossa. Then the CW strips Gibraltar of some defensive units, and now the AIO is working on attacking Gibraltar again. Maintaining a focus in the changing world is hard for human players and I expect it to be equally difficult for the AIO.

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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by composer99 »

I don't know about that so much - my CW in a real-life game is staring an invasion of England in the face, and I'd say I'm being pretty focused about it. [;)]
 
Of course it's really only the side or power(s) on the attack who have to worry about focus. But on the whole it is disastrous for humans and AI alike to allow themselves to be swung from one grand plan to another, especially in a game like WiF where production strategy is so critical to the success of the military strategy.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: composer99
I don't know about that so much - my CW in a real-life game is staring an invasion of England in the face, and I'd say I'm being pretty focused about it. [;)]

Of course it's really only the side or power(s) on the attack who have to worry about focus. But on the whole it is disastrous for humans and AI alike to allow themselves to be swung from one grand plan to another, especially in a game like WiF where production strategy is so critical to the success of the military strategy.
Yes, but ...

Given that a strategic plan might change under special circumstances (continuing to do the same thing with the expectation of getting a different outcome is one definition of insanity), then the AIO has to define what those special circumstances are. And it is possible to keep revising that definition finer and finer with more details, until "a straw breaks the camel's back". I can do simple stuff (e.g., do not change a strategic plan if it has been changed previously within the last 2 turns) to prevent the removal of the straw from swinging the decision back in the other direction, but I would prefer to have something more elegant rather than crude.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by composer99 »

I would guess that the German AIO should make Barbarossa (whether 41 or 42) its "baseline" strategic plan, Barb being comparatively easier to prepare and build for than the others.
 
That way, if the Germans start the game off wanting to do something else but circumstances suggest that following through would not only fail but leave the Germans badly off on all fronts, they can at least use their other resources in the BoA or the Med to delay or harass the Western Allies and at least go try to get a defence line vs. the USSR that is somewhere in Russian territory instead of on the Vistula.
 
If Germany initially attempts a Sealion, but decides in advance that it is not going to work, it could switch over easily to attempt a Gib without too much effort (all those NAVs and Marines can come in handy invading the Rock and bypassing Spanish defence lines), and if even that looks questionable, it can switch to Barb later. Likewise, a Germany prepping for Barbarossa could switch to fight for a 1941 Gibraltar if it spots a weakness it can exploit (especially if CW has had trouble keeping convoys protected).
 
The only plan that Germany should probably not consider switching to in the middle of things is a Sealion, since it will not be able to churn out the sealift, if it hasn't from the start of the game, to have it ready in time to invade England before it is too late (i.e. 1942).
 
Was that at all helpful?
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

Yes, it was helpful.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by CBoehm »

ORIGINAL: composer99

The only plan that Germany should probably not consider switching to in the middle of things is a Sealion, since it will not be able to churn out the sealift, if it hasn't from the start of the game, to have it ready in time to invade England before it is too late (i.e. 1942).

Was that at all helpful?

well ...I have to some extend disagree!

Now while the above might be good for the ai, since I guess you cannot really expect to be "good" at evaluating the balance of the various strategies.... I DO think that a successful sealion will almost always come from improvision NOT from planning since if the CW player see that Ge is building towards a Sealion its really very easy to prevent (mind you not the actual landing itself ...) Basically if CW makes sure to keep UK proporly garrisoned with landunits and AC its pretty useless to invade. (see CWai thread for post regarding how to defend UK from sealion, Im pretty sure I posted something there... [;)] )

In that sense I do often find that the threat of a sealion ei. having build an extra TRN in 39 ei. tying up CW units in UK while u go through Spain and crush Suez etc. ...is much more effective than actually carrying it through.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: CBoehm
ORIGINAL: composer99
The only plan that Germany should probably not consider switching to in the middle of things is a Sealion, since it will not be able to churn out the sealift, if it hasn't from the start of the game, to have it ready in time to invade England before it is too late (i.e. 1942).

Was that at all helpful?

well ...I have to some extend disagree!

Now while the above might be good for the ai, since I guess you cannot really expect to be "good" at evaluating the balance of the various strategies.... I DO think that a successful sealion will almost always come from improvision NOT from planning since if the CW player see that Ge is building towards a Sealion its really very easy to prevent (mind you not the actual landing itself ...) Basically if CW makes sure to keep UK proporly garrisoned with landunits and AC its pretty useless to invade. (see CWai thread for post regarding how to defend UK from sealion, Im pretty sure I posted something there... [;)] )

In that sense I do often find that the threat of a sealion ei. having build an extra TRN in 39 ei. tying up CW units in UK while u go through Spain and crush Suez etc. ...is much more effective than actually carrying it through.
The advice was to not switch TO a Sealion since it requires so much preparation. Your advice that it is possible to switch FROM a Sealion strategy (or to merely threaten to launch the invasion) is not contratdictory.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by CBoehm »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: CBoehm
ORIGINAL: composer99
The only plan that Germany should probably not consider switching to in the middle of things is a Sealion, since it will not be able to churn out the sealift, if it hasn't from the start of the game, to have it ready in time to invade England before it is too late (i.e. 1942).

Was that at all helpful?

My point was that a successfull sealion almost always comes from improvisation ..ei. switching TO a sealion ...ei. if CW has been quick to reinforce Afrika in 39 ...and end up getting the BEF annihilated in France ...then a quick switch to a sealion ...perhaps even a landing in UK BEFORE fall of france can be successfull. However a deliberate strategy of "now I will build towards and force through a sealion" will almost always fail if CW knows what he is doing.
well ...I have to some extend disagree!

Now while the above might be good for the ai, since I guess you cannot really expect to be "good" at evaluating the balance of the various strategies.... I DO think that a successful sealion will almost always come from improvision NOT from planning since if the CW player see that Ge is building towards a Sealion its really very easy to prevent (mind you not the actual landing itself ...) Basically if CW makes sure to keep UK proporly garrisoned with landunits and AC its pretty useless to invade. (see CWai thread for post regarding how to defend UK from sealion, Im pretty sure I posted something there... [;)] )

In that sense I do often find that the threat of a sealion ei. having build an extra TRN in 39 ei. tying up CW units in UK while u go through Spain and crush Suez etc. ...is much more effective than actually carrying it through.
The advice was to not switch TO a Sealion since it requires so much preparation. Your advice that it is possible to switch FROM a Sealion strategy (or to merely threaten to launch the invasion) is not contratdictory.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by composer99 »

ORIGINAL: CBoehm
My point was that a successfull sealion almost always comes from improvisation ..ei. switching TO a sealion ...ei. if CW has been quick to reinforce Afrika in 39 ...and end up getting the BEF annihilated in France ...then a quick switch to a sealion ...perhaps even a landing in UK BEFORE fall of france can be successfull. However a deliberate strategy of "now I will build towards and force through a sealion" will almost always fail if CW knows what he is doing.

While an impromptu Sealion in 1940 might be achievable, it requires a rather good deal of luck on the part of the Germans - the CW has to empty England out to the BEF and/or Africa, the BEF has to get destroyed, and the CW has to have been negligent in not building land units or fighters in 1939 or early in 1940. Furthermore, the Germans will have to get rather lucky in avoiding having their only sealift in 39-40 (1 trs & 1 amph) getting damaged or sunk, as they will have almost no invasion capability and (on the turn of the invasion) absolutely no follow-up capability. The RAF also has to prove incompetent on ground strikes to pin the attackers to their beachhead.

Furthermore, I disagree that a pre-meditated Sealion is doomed to fail.

Sealion, in WiF, is not really about conquering England (if you can manage it, great, but don't bet on it). Sealion in WiF is about three things: (1) damaging or destroying British production and convoy pipelines such that they are incapable of building up adequately in the late-war in conjunction with the Americans to crush Germany in the West or to stretch German lines beyond breaking point throughout Europe; (2) prevent the Allies from concentrating on and hence destroying Germany's weaker Italian ally; and (3) by drawing British and (later) American attention and forces to England, give the other Axis powers (especially Japan) the freedom to expand with minimal resistance from the Western Allies, earning the objectives the Axis needs to win the game (the Indian Ocean handshake).

Germany needs two things to get a pre-meditated Sealion going. The first is to build out its long-range bombers, naval bombers, and fighters to exhaust CW airpower across the UK and to contest the North Sea and maybe even also the Bay of Biscay from the invasion turn on - the Germans are committing to spend at least a year, possibly longer, trying to duke it out with the Royal Navy.

The second thing is enough sealift and/or airlift to invade or paradrop into two or three hexes right away during the invasion, and then be able to bring adequate follow-up forces in during the turn of the invasion. That sealift and airlift has to be able to continue shipping in troops for sometime after in adequate numbers to overwhelm the British defences.

If those two things are in place, then even a strong British defence may not be enough to throw off the initial invasions (three hexes for preference, four if you can manage it) - at which point the Germans might be able to get ashore in force somewhere in England. Even if the CW completely builds out their army in 39-40, they probably won't have enough army to fight the Wehrmacht toe-to-toe if it can really get ashore in force.

Finally, to reinforce a point, remember that a Sealion isn't a failure even if the Germans don't get on the beaches (or even if they are promptly booted off) if they have bought time for the Italians to secure the Suez Canal and Malta and for Japan to conquer wide swaths of CW territory (especially Australia/New Zealand and maybe even India or South Africa).

The point is that an improvised Sealion is very likely to fail in all three ways discussed above if launched in 1940 unless an extraordinary number of things go Germany's way, and an ad hoc Sealion launched in 1941 is pretty well doomed to failure unless the CW player is both truly incompetent and very unlucky.

Edit: I should point out that one reason I am a very conservative WiF player and will argue in favour of a conservative AI is because I am described by one of my fellow WiF players here in Ottawa as the "unluckiest guy he knows". [:)]
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by composer99 »

Further to this, I have to mention that in the WiF game I am playing, we played through March/April 1941 yesterday. I am playing the CW, and the Germans have been building for a Sealion.
 
The Germans have had an awful tough time attacking France (lots of losses, bad combat rolls), which delayed the installation of a Vichy government until Christmas (with corresponding benefits for the CW convoy lines).
 
They also lost their PARA during their first attack on Paris (the second one is the one that succeeded), but they did rebuild it promptly. It will arrive as reinforcements in May/June.
 
The Germans also lost a couple of Italian bombers (including a NAV) and a German NAV during the summer of 40. The Italians have not yet made good on those losses (they are busily spending their money on subs, which are cycling in and out of the repair pool with alacrity). Germany's BoA up until M/A was not fantastic - maybe 1/2-dozen CW convoys sunk for about 1 dozen build points of subs lost or damaged.
 
On the plus side, they managed to get both Italian transports out into the Bay of Biscay while Italy was neutral. CW declared war on Italy to try to get them, and they managed to escape. This has made up somewhat for Germany's otherwise lax naval construction programme.
 
However, despite the CW's aggressive army building programme, the Germans - because they had been preparing for Sealion since the start of the game (albeit very poorly - only 1 amph built, no other sealift, no CVs, no marine or para divs) - have been able to take advantage of the remaining holes in the CW defence of England to invade in March/April during good weather. They dropped into Sheffield with an INF & MAR corps, and an eng div. They lost the MAR corps (thankfully!). They also invaded the hex east of it with an HQ and an inf div.
 
Sheffield's defence was so strong, thanks to ground support, that the CW did not launch an attack on it (they got re-flipped by the HQ, and loads of support flown onto the spot or in range) - so that beachhead remains, although it has been quite thoroughly blocked up, and awaits only a cut of the supply lines and some flips to bring it down.
 
Otherwise, the Germans had some successes in the air (shooting down a CW cvp and 2 ftrs, killing some pilots while they were at it) and some failures (lost their only atr and the mtn corps that was in it!).
 
The Germans may be able to get an invasion off somewhere else, but unless it's in the south where there's factories to be blown up (and air cover), and unless it succeeds brilliantly somewhere where they can't get blitzed off, it won't do them much good.
 
Despite the rather poor strategic chances of the Sealion in and of itself, it has in some levels been a success - the CW has focused entirely on defending the UK, which will throw its offensive against Italy off until later in 1942. The downside is that the massive land unit building by the CW means that India and Malaya are well defended, and Australia and NZ are likely to have respectable garrisons by year's end.
 
The moral of the story is that even modest preparations by the Germans for Sealion can pay off some - but they do need to make some preparations.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

Thanks.

I had forgotten about the operational possiblity of the Italinas going to the Bay of Biscay with their naval transports. I will be sure to add that as a option for the Italian AIO.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by composer99 »

It's quite a coup if you can get away with it, but it does eliminate Italy's offensive power in the Med, so I'd only do it if a Sealion was absolutely in the cards.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by coregames »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Thanks.

I had forgotten about the operational possiblity of the Italinas going to the Bay of Biscay with their naval transports. I will be sure to add that as a option for the Italian AIO.
from my limited experience, as soon as Germany has French ports within range for Italian boats to rebase to, the CW will declare war to prevent just such a maneuver.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by composer99 »

Not when the Italians flee to Hamburg (as they did in my game). Through two blockades. [:@]
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by npilgaard »

ORIGINAL: coregames

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Thanks.

I had forgotten about the operational possiblity of the Italinas going to the Bay of Biscay with their naval transports. I will be sure to add that as a option for the Italian AIO.
from my limited experience, as soon as Germany has French ports within range for Italian boats to rebase to, the CW will declare war to prevent just such a maneuver.

One (somewhat difficult) way to get a few Italians out of the Med before CW closes Gibraltar is to have the Italians themselves capture a port late in the turn, e.g. the SW port (Mogador) in Marocco (can be invaded by a DIV on surprise). Italian fleet (with at least one corps) can the return to base.
A number of problems, though: Only 4 ships in a minor port; CW fleets in the Atlantic preventing movement/destroying small fleet if search succesful; port attack by CW CVs; end of turn supply must be through Marocco, so important that no/very few allied units here.
If one is really gambling as an Italian player, at a time where the CW fleet is committed elsewhere, the 3-range SCS+the 2 TRS could be moved to the Bay of Biscay and then in the next impulse returned to base in Germany. And 4 2-range SCS (perhaps some BBs) could be moved to to Mogador. Very high risk, though - to unlikey to succes imho.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by dale1066 »

I guess this thread has been dorment for a while if thats for a good reason then no problem.

One tactic that I've seen and used to good effect as germany is to attack belguim by a DOW in a very late impulse, hoping for the turn to end then to gain initiative in the next turn and ooze into all of belguim before france or the CW can react and advance to give the allies more breathing space in front of paris.

It doesn't always work but can save a lot of attacks and speed up the conquest of france.

Anyone else have any views on this?



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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by composer99 »

I was on the French end of that tactic once. From my view, it is devastatingly effective if it works. If it doesn't, then you probably haven't lost out much.
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RE: AI for MWiF - Germany

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: dale1066

I guess this thread has been dorment for a while if thats for a good reason then no problem.

One tactic that I've seen and used to good effect as germany is to attack belguim by a DOW in a very late impulse, hoping for the turn to end then to gain initiative in the next turn and ooze into all of belguim before france or the CW can react and advance to give the allies more breathing space in front of paris.

It doesn't always work but can save a lot of attacks and speed up the conquest of france.

Anyone else have any views on this?
Indeed, this all boils down to the ability of the AI to play with what we call "flip-flops" in France, that is ending the turn, and starting the next.
Odds of this happening can be calculated easily by the AI I think.
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