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I generally use it in China/Burma to reorg units that had to flip when moving into bad terrain. In MWiF this is much less of a problem due to the euro map scale change, so it might see use elsewhere.

I also use it on Japans 'supercombined' assault to get a toehold in the Phillipenes if I have a para unit available, but its primarily a reorganization tool.

i have trouble wifzenning the ATR's reorg abilities ...

Why?  That was the primary use of all the ATRs durring the war. 

on the supercombined it's fun to sail the ATR into Bangkok with the parachute division.

If Japan attacks Russia with a strong force in 1941, simultaniously with a dedicated attack by Germany in the west, there is a lot of reason for Russia to surrender to Japan, mostly because this lets the USSR rail every single unit from Asia to europe, while still hoding Chita, and maybe even the resource SE of Chita.

Also, if Russia is stuffing the border, and is at war with Italy already, they may want to avoid any fighting with Japan in 1941, so they surrender as soon as Japan attacks if they attack in 1941.

Cheers
Hakon

ORIGINAL: Norman42

With that new surrender rule I too don't see much reason at all for the USSR to surrender to Japan, ever. Maybe if the Soviets had 7-8 units trapped out of supply and isolated on the Pacific map by stellar Japanese pre-1941 play I'd consider it just to get my units freed up in time for Barb, but otherwise...

The Japanese can't really advance much deeper into Russia then Chita anyways, nor do they gain much by trying, so surrender really gains you nothing. Let them keep trying to slog through to Irkutsk...you are probably saving China at the expense of a few hexes of empty Motherland.

I think Russia can always afford to leave a couple-three, (and NO more) cheap units (and more importantly, slow - the slow ones aren't much use in a 41 Barb) behind in the Pacific, and make Japan earn it's rewards somewhat. The US will thank you at least. I'm not saying Russia should overcommit in Asia, that is a classic mistake that has lost the Allies many a game of WiF. But I don't see any point at all in surrendering...depending on the situation in the Middle East, that has too many angles to be a cut and dried decision. Besides, if you surrender, it might be a pain in the butt to re-DOW Japan later in the war when you want to. And there is too much fun to be had with the 2-5 Cavalry that can't fight the Germans anyway. Japan just doesn't have the logistics support to deal with land campaigns over large areas like Siberia.


I also like to use the Japanese ATR (or more likely the Flying-Boat NAV/ATR) to fly the MTN corps to the lake in NW Manchuria for a surprise drive on Chita.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

on the supercombined it's fun to sail the ATR into Bangkok with the parachute division.

what does that get you?

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I think Russia can always afford to leave a couple-three, (and NO more) cheap units (and more importantly, slow - the slow ones aren't much use in a 41 Barb) behind in the Pacific, and make Japan earn it's rewards somewhat. The US will thank you at least. I'm not saying Russia should overcommit in Asia, that is a classic mistake that has lost the Allies many a game of WiF. But I don't see any point at all in surrendering...depending on the situation in the Middle East, that has too many angles to be a cut and dried decision. Besides, if you surrender, it might be a pain in the butt to re-DOW Japan later in the war when you want to. And there is too much fun to be had with the 2-5 Cavalry that can't fight the Germans anyway. Japan just doesn't have the logistics support to deal with land campaigns over large areas like Siberia.


I also like to use the Japanese ATR (or more likely the Flying-Boat NAV/ATR) to fly the MTN corps to the lake in NW Manchuria for a surprise drive on Chita.

In the case of a 1941 barb combined with a determined Japanese attack on the USSR at the same time, if you only leave 2-3 units in Asia and Japan attacks in force, you have to expect to loose at least Chita, and possibly have Japan pressing on all the way to Irkutsk in 1941. While that's not the end of the world, it's definitely worse than surrendering all hexes on the Pacific map (which you will lose anyway). Especially if you can keep that resource SE of Chita, it's much better. We find that this situation is quite common in our game, since we typically see China being conquered some time in 1941 or 1942, which frees up enough Japanese ground units to attack both the USSR and the allies.

If China is still strong, and Japan is setting up for attacking the allies in strength, Japan will often not have the musscle to send a strong force into Russia. In this case, it may be ok to try to make a stand. (3-6 japanese land units can of course be stopped by 2-3 russian defenders). But if Japan attacks Russia with 10-20 units, Russia will either have to set up 6-10 units in defense, or at least face losing Chita. And 6-10 extra units vs Germany can really make a difference.

Cheers
Hakon

But if Japan attacks Russia with 10-20 units

Hmmm I can't see where Japan would ever scrape up 20(!) units to attack Russia with, unless they completely gave up on a pacific war, built no naval units, and China completely collapsed by mid 1940. Seven or eight units is usually considered a massive commitment to Russia for Japan. Twenty...I can't say I've ever seen that. For that scale of investment(ie the entire Japanese army), Siberia is little reward.

I'd gladly trade Siberia for Americans on Formosa in 1943.

There is a nice oil hex in ATR range of Bangkok.

Hakon, why do you see China conquered so often? I have heard other players mention that, but I don't find China that hard to keep alive. A few lucky Japanese attacks can send the Chinese snowballing down the slippery slope, sure. But as long as they don't foolishly pick up the attack dice themselves I don't think they are likely to be conquered in 1941. What have your Japanese discovered to slay the Dragon every time? Maybe we need an AI for China thread?

I guess I can see that one advantage to the USSR surrendering to Japan; every resource counts, and every garrison point in a stuff. But Chita should be fairly tough for the Japanese, again unless the Chinese were bored in 1940 and decided to have fun with the attack dice. How many points do you score in negotiations for deliveries from Uncle Sam by leaving some roadblocks in front of the Japanese? And if Japan can afford that kind of attack on Russia, won't they just start over again in 1942 and take Chita then? How about the Russians just leaving the Cav division somewhere southwest of Irkutsk, is that worthwhile?

I haven't read all of the AIO threads, but has the influence of whether a player or players choose to use the Oil rules been factored into the AIO thinking? Especially in the case of the Axis powers the Oil rule is the single most powerful rule that influences their play and build considerations. The lack of a need to save oil or build Synth plants, especially in the early war, has a very dramatic impact on what they have available for each campaign.

For instance, it is not unusual for some German players to Build a Synth in September '39 which is 7BP and then need to use 4 or more oil for reorg if things go even slightly wrong. Thats 10BP they could spend on other things. 2 pilots and 3 Mil, or 2 mech, or an Armor and Mot corp, etc.

This can also have a huge impact on China.

I've played a couple of games w/o Oil and it had some really strange effects on the game. I usually get stuck with the Axis, as some of the people I play with, seem to have moral objections to playing the Germans and Japanese.

The reason I bring this up, is that the AIO threads I have read so far, all seem to assume use of the Oil rule. A good thing, particularly from the stand point of the Axis AIO's, as it is just too impactful not to consider. But as I mentioned above, the reverse is, potentially, equally true. Especially in the context of Japan, use of the Oil rule dominates Japanese strategy. And the need to capture and save oil resources color's everything that has been written about Japanese strategy so far.

Now let's reverse that, look at what the ability to use all of that Oil they are normally saving, does to Japanese strategy vis-a-vis China? How does the Chinese AIO counter this? How much more aggressive is Japan likely to be with some extra early builds? Even if its only 2BP a turn thats another Pilot or Mil or Garrison or FTR, 2 CV planes, or more probably a couple extra CV's when war with the U.S. comes. What impact does no Oil have on the Soviets when considering its stance and options against Japan?

Does Japan need to worry about the NEI and the guessing game they are usually playing with respect to U.S. Entry? Do they need to take Burma? Intervening in Persia has even greater potential impact, thats 2 more BP's per turn in '39.

Even assuming the Japanese use the strategies as outlined, they will have more to accomplish them with. If I remember correctly in one of the old WiF manuals, WiF4? Said that a BP in '39 is equal to 3 in '42 given the greater potential long term impact that early builds have.

There have been numerous discussions regarding German strategy. All of them are heavily influenced by Rumania. Why is Rumania such a predominant point in German Strategic thinking?

What could the Italians do with that extra resource? All of a sudden their economy is 20% stronger.

Oil is a loadstone tied around the neck of the Axis. It makes the game more realistic, but do we really think that players are always going to play with the oil rule? Especially inexperienced or new to WiF players? I for one, will probably play a few games w/o oil, just to get some revenge on the Allies. Who seem to always be swimming in their lakes of oil! [:@]

My 2 cents to the discussion.

Jason

Norman,

I've seen the Japanese use a Russia first strategy in games where oil isn't used. In one game, my Japanese ally was strat bombing Sverdlovsk from Novosibirsk. He still took his perimeter, but he had knocked the Chinese back to the Chunking plain, in part because of extra builds he had available by not having to worry about saving oil for the fleet. He used his O-chit to shatter the Chinese line in the south, got a couple of lucky rolls and was able to eliminate the CC during the period from summer 40 summer of '41.

He had invaded Siberia in '39 and was able to grab Chita and Vlad in the surprise impulse. Soviet's had set up for an attack on Persia and Rumania. When the Russians failed to make peace with the Japanese in early '40, I started building up on the Polish border and making noise about a 1940 Barbarossa. France was on its knees in April. Ooze war in the west and a 50-50 shot against the BEF in Antwerp meant France was in trouble early. My demonstrations in western Poland allowed France to survive until late May/June, but it was worth it to cause the panic in the Soviet player. As he immediately offered terms to the Japanese. In 1940 the Soviet Garrison in the west was well less than inadequate. The Japanese then were able to break the Pact in September '41, and by jumping off from Chita they drove the Soviets off of the Pacific map in rapid fashion.

Since the Japanese had nothing to do from April of '40 until December of '41 they focused on the Chinese. By the Summer of '41 the Chinese were on the ropes and by the end of August '41 they had the Garrison to break the Soviet/Japanese peace after redeploying their faster units and Air Force from China.

The Soviets, quite literally, were 1 impulse away from total collapse when the weather decided to go bad for 1 full year and I made a couple of really boneheaded mistakes with the Italians, which lost us Italy 1 year ealier than needed and ultimately lost us the game.

Jason

ORIGINAL: Astarix
I haven't read all of the AIO threads, but has the influence of whether a player or players choose to use the Oil rules been factored into the AIO thinking? Especially in the case of the Axis powers the Oil rule is the single most powerful rule that influences their play and build considerations. The lack of a need to save oil or build Synth plants, especially in the early war, has a very dramatic impact on what they have available for each campaign.

Good point about AIO and no-oil 'option'.

As for what additional units are allowed to be built with the extra BP I think the AIO will handle that fairly easy - the usual build-routines will probably be able to handle that.

As you note, the effect on strategic decisions are important, though

ORIGINAL: Astarix
Does Japan need to worry about the NEI and the guessing game they are usually playing with respect to U.S. Entry? Do they need to take Burma? Intervening in Persia has even greater potential impact, thats 2 more BP's per turn in '39.

I haven't played a game without oil for a long, long time, but I will assume the following:
- it is much harder for the US to force Japan to DoW on NEI by closing for the oil-trade.
- thus Japan can stretch it longer before starting the Pacific war. The NEI (oil) resources are of course still important for production, and need to be taken by (surprise) invasions, but now no more than e.g. Malayan resources.
- if Japan waits to long by DoW then the US/CW may come first. Unless their fleets are around and finding by surprise the effect is usually not that great though - except that Japan won't get the precious surprise invasions. So maybe it will be worth it, if Japan plans to do a late DoW to buy time for China or the USSRm and to reduce US all-game production, that Germany doesn't DoW Netherlands, and thus the NEI are neutral and can be surprised regardless of an CW DoW on Japan, that comes before Japanese DoW
- whatever the choice of strategy, I think that the Japanese can afford to be more aggressive - either building more land (and air) units and going against China, USSR and/or India etc. or naval / air if focusing on the Pacific.

ORIGINAL: Astarix
Oil is a loadstone tied around the neck of the Axis. It makes the game more realistic, but do we really think that players are always going to play with the oil rule? Especially inexperienced or new to WiF players? I for one, will probably play a few games w/o oil, just to get some revenge on the Allies. Who seem to always be swimming in their lakes of oil! [:@]

Try using the WiFCON gas rules - we have used them in my playing group for the latest couple of games, and they work well, imho - much less counting at the end of turn, and the Allies (especially CW, but also to some extent the -US) have a loadstone (maybe one that is a little lighter than the Axis' one though [:)]) around their neck.

Btw, another single optional rule that has a great impact on Japan is the DIVs on SCSs rule - without that rule Japans invasion capabilities (especially surprise and long range invasions) will be severely restricted. If not playing with that rule, priority has to be clear on which hexes are to be invaded during the 'octopus' (don't know if that is an 'official' term [:)], but we usually use that name for Japans DoW impulse(s) when they invade and grab stuff all over the place)

I think Samuel Elliot Morrison, the war historian of the USN, may have come up with the "Octopus" term, referring to the Japanese invasion of Java if I recall correctly. Or he might have borrowed it from Japanese or US operational planning during the war. So that is a great way to refer to it.

Interesting - thanks.
(A nice thing about this forum: no matter what little detail about WWII one is asking for, there is always someone around here who knows the answer...[:)] )

As for the placement of the Mighty Imperial Japanese Navy at the start of the Global War scenario.

I like to have the Strike Fleet composed of the slow BB, slow CV, in a port able to sail into the Sea next to Russia and the China Sea. They will move in the future to Canton for the invasions around the South China Sea, but are a threat to Russia initialy.

The rest of the fleet (Combined with the 5 moving CVs and BBs, Mobile with the Mogami cruisers, and the last one with the 6 moving CVs and some cruisers) is based in Tokyo, where it can go anywhere needed later, but preferably nowhere before the show begins in late 1941, to save oil.

SUBs are preferably based in Tokyo too. Having them in Truk is fine, sometimes preferable, but you may use them initialy in the Indian Ocean, so a rebase will have to be done before they are fully threatening anyway.


1 CP is placed in the sea adjacent to Russia, to ship the 1 RP from Manchuria to Japan. This also opens a second supply route from Japan to Asia in case of emergencies. Good to be ready for that since day 1.

5 CP are placed in the sea east of Tokyo, for the US / Jap trade agreement.

3 CP are placed in the South China sea, to bring back the NEI oil, and to ship Hainan RP to Canton for use in the red factory there.

5 CP are placed in the China Sea, for the 2 NEI oil, and for the formose RP and both extra Chinese RP. 2 of them can be alternatively placed in the sea next to Russia. An extra one can be placed here at start, if a Chinese resource is near to fall into your hands. 2 for 2 resources.

1 CP are placed in each of the Marianas, Bismarck Sea and possibly the one west of the Marshall, for supply purposes.

That leaves 3 reserve CP (minus any extra put in the China Sea or the sea area next to Russia), that are spread out (as I always prefer them) between ports able to go to China Sea and the sea adjacent to Russia, Tokyo, Canton.

4 more will be needed to ship the 2 Malayan RP.
3 more will be needed to ship the 3 resources that Japan can hope to grab in China (Sian + the 2 south ones).
2 more will be needed to ship the Philipinne RP.
4 more will be needed to ship the 2 conquered NEI oil.
2 more will be needed to ship the Indochinese RP. Maybe only 1 if the railway is clear of Chinese units, but not likely.

That's 15 CP needed, so 7 to build if you count that you have 5 that you take back from the US / Japan agreement, and 3 in reserve. To start the Pacific war with a confortable reserve of CP (about 10), you'd better build at least 2 per turn since day 1.

Talking about builts, I like finishing all the 5 moving CVs and the heavy CV from the Cosntruction / Repair pool before S/O 41, and I also like finishing all heavy cruisers, who are a real bang for their money. I also finish the Yamato, for the solid target, and the occasional AA it provides.

I also like to begin the Pacific War (all be ready for S/O 41 at the latest, so that all is ready if USentry is threatening) with a minimum of 4 TRS & 2 AMPH, preferably 7-8 total of them, or the 6 plus 1-2 begun hulls. This is to allow for 2 full invasions on Japanese D-Day (Philippines & NEI), plus leaves 2 TRS for reinforcing garrisons and various duties accomplished on Japanese D-Day.

I like putting the CVs in Canton to start, along with the Battle Cruisers and of course some of the excellent CA. A few of these I like in Hainan actually, with a division or two. The purpose? Ready for an intervention in Persia, though this is more likely in 1940. The range factor is what comes in to play here, it is a bit surprising how that varies on the Japanese fleet CVs. Extra CPs are in Canton for this same purpose as you won't need supply to Truk for quite a while yet.

In general I just like the Middle East option for the Japanese.

The port Froonp mentions for a good place to start the BB fleet is Fukuoka.

The Japanese can of course engage in their own mucking around in the Middle East, seizing Saudi Arabia and maybe even Iraq. It means building more convoys but extra oil, especially stuff that cannot get embargoed, can help you wait out the Americans a bit longer.

One caveat to Patrice's statements, if you are using Classic ships and extended Japanese CV range, the 4 and 3 point CV's will be quite useful in S. China as ground strikers.

Little use for the fleet otherwise until General War; however if the USSR gets frisky, shore bombardment from the slow battleships Patrice mentioned will be invaluable.

Based on Froonp's guildlines for setup, here is a suggestion.
Using Oil option
Not Using Limited Overseas Supply

Truk, 2 Submarines

Fukuoka:
Hosho, Mutsu, Nagato, Hyuga, Ise, Yamashiro, Fuso, Nachi, Furutaka, Kako, Idzumo. 2 Transports with Both at start Marines.

Tokyo: (Kido Butai)
Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu, Ryujo, Kongo, Haruna, Kirishima, Chikuma, Kumano, Maya, Chokai, Ashigara, Myoko, Tone, Suzuya, Mikuma, Haguro, Mogami, 6 convoy, Amph, Transport

Convoy Line
South China Sea, 3 Convoy
China Sea, 5 Convoy
Japanese Coast, 5 Convoy
Sea of Japan, 1 Convoy