Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

Is it possible to mine non-base hexes ? If so it might be better to mine the hex just to the West of Victoria, less chance that he'll have local minesweepers clearing that hex. 

I believe that you can mine any hex. It's just that open water hexes cause the mines to deteriorate very fast. I will look at your point when I run the next turn.

LoBaron: I have looked hard at suspending the northern part of the offensive and realised that I can not afford to do this. If I remove all of the pressure from up north, he will quickly send many of those units down south or even cross the border into my lines. My whole offensive in the north is really a paper dragon as I can't get any air assets in up there and I only have enough force (appearently not enough in the two places that I am fighting at 1:2) to attack in a vulnerable area. His reinforcements also arrive from the north and I am trying to keep the rail line cut in a couple of places so that he can't swiftly move them down south.

The other consideration is the risk of him flying B-17s into Soviet bases if I leave him alone there. It would (and may yet be) a dream second front for him.

I am thinking that if I bring the units that were on Luzon in and land them at either Rashin or at Olga (the port closest to northern Honshu) I can trap his forces in a vice and kill everything around Vladivostok. I can then pick them back up and head for Java.

ComradeP: Interesting observation on the bombardment attacks. You may be correct or it may be that he is seriously disrupted due to high fatigue and disruption on his units as well. Even though I did not bombard him with much this turn, I did continue to pound him with air attacks and I am certain that he has been pretty disrupted from previous turns.

I will try to get you some snaps of my warship losses and major combat units under repair.

ComradeP,
here are some screenshots from tracker that should answer your questions.

First, here are my ships that have damage higher that 3 system and where they are located.

Much of my stretch is due to the fact that you normally do not need major warships in the Sea of Japan at the same time you need them down south.

I also have quite a few small ships that are due for upgrade that I need to get to a yard this month.

Here are my ship losses to date (2 screens worth)

And the 2nd. Ops against the Soviets have been hard on my xAKLs.

Thanks for posting those stat screens, seems like you're doing fine with the repairs. Upgrading the hordes of smaller vessels is always tricky when it comes to finding the right time/yard with capacity to do so.

I thought you would have more ships in the yard, due to your comment of being stretched, but your explanation that the stretching is due to having warships support the fight in the Russia/near Japan and in the south makes sense.

Moving KB north whilst upgrading many of the smaller vessels could become a problem, your opponent could get lucky with subs (pretty unlikely this early on) or with PT boats (potentially more of a problem, depending on where you're invading) when many of the DD's and other escorts are in the yard in Japan for upgrades.

On the other hand, judging by the first screen, you can afford some system damage from misses and (dud) torpedoes, on your major warships it seems, as there are few on the list.

I do have another question: how are your logistics holding up in Russia? Judging by the unit information screens, even your Piñata units taking the bombardment hits seem to have enough supply, but does the situation look good in the longer term, or can a slight setback cause some serious problems (say, if your opponent shifts some forces to the north to make your position there weaker)? You're operating much closer to Japan, but the unit density in the parts of Russia you're invading is also a lot higher than in Southeast Asia.

I have an idea of why the arty results are the way they are:  When you reserve troops they are being pulled out of the front lines by several miles.  That causes the troop density at the front to be lessened.  An arty bombardment is going to still hit the front lines and due to less troop density, more rounds will hit nothing.  Thus losses would be less. So if you have 100k troops set on combat, they are occupying a front line that can be no longer than 46 miles across. At best that is ~2174 troops per front mile.  If you reserve 20k of those troops it is, ~1740 troops per mile. 

Goes back to the "One grenade will get you all concept."

just my .02

Yes good hint offnseman.

Could be that the high ground losses we are all experiencing only
because we all arent yet used to the new train/rest setting.

offenseman: that theory is generally true on paper, but in practice what you describe is what happens when guns fire randomly into a tightly packed concentration of units. Fewer units in line would automatically reduce the statistical chance of being hit if the firing was random, but it isn't.

In this case, the enemy would have a pretty good idea of where you are, as the troops have been fighting/firing earlier.

Let's take a look at this bombardment attack by the Soviets:

Attacking force 75476 troops, 1592 guns, 1035 vehicles, Assault Value = 2352

Defending force 110146 troops, 1216 guns, 1290 vehicles, Assault Value = 2277

The Soviet guns have about 70 targets per gun (the combined total of Japanese troops, guns, vehicles divided by the amount of Soviet guns).

The attack results in 1353 casualties, mostly disabled, which is less than 1 per gun, and 1.2% of the total defending force.

Japanese counter-battery fire casualties are negligible

If we go back to page 24 of the thread, we can check on another bombardment attack.

849 Japanese guns, with 115 targets each, caused 1653 casualties, or 1.7% of the total defending force.

The Soviets, with a whopping 1893 guns must've screwed up counterbattery fire badly as they only inflicted 103 casualties.

I guess that's also a bit weird and might need some work: if the enemy has more guns than you, presumably of a higher calibre, perhaps the bombardment casualties should be lower because counterbattery fire would be more intense.

The disruption and fatique could be one of the reasons why the Soviet guns, although greater in number than the Japanese, didn't cause nearly as many casualties as the Japanese, both as a total, as a percentage and as casualties per gun.

The main advantage of Japanese artillery pieces was that they could shoot further than Western pieces of the same calibre. Overall, most Japanese artillery was pretty light by 1942 Western standards (the standard being 105mm or 150mm).

In the above examples the Japanese inflicted more casualties with a limited number of guns, and more targets per gun, than the Soviets did with more guns, and a more limited number of targets per gun. Of course, it could all be due to disruption and/or fatique and/or experience.

As a concluding comment on why the bombardment system might need some work:

Think about it like this, what do you think would cause more casualties/disruption/fatique:

A) A large number of units each receiving fire from a handful of artillery pieces.

B) A handful of units receiving fire from hundreds of artillery pieces.

AE seems to think A is the answer, but the correct answer would be B in most cases.

BTW: Sorry for the hijack seydlitz, perhaps the discussion should be taken to the War Room or elsewhere.

ComradeP No problem with the hijack. I am kind of interested in this also. This reserve order is new in AE so we can't say for sure how it works relative to stock. This turn my units had recovered enough disruption that I was able to put them back on the line in bombard mode. Most of the arty is at about 20-25 disruption and 40-65 fatigue. The fatigue does not seem to recover that much. I guess it is the incessant pounding of the guns nearby.

We will see later today how the recovered arty does in battle. On the results from this time damage was pretty low on both sides but I noticed that the AA units were smacked pretty hard by arty. Hard enough that they are going into reserve.

Regarding the supply issue, supplies are fine in the Vladivostok area as I had plenty to start with. However, if he manages to break through the next border fort west of Kotou and into my airfield at Mashin I will not be able to trace supply through it and I will be in trouble. I need to either land at one of the ports near Vladivostok or punch a hole through his western border forts to ensure supply if that happens.

Up north, I am supplied but I am slightly under supported. I can't move my force that is stalemated east of Borzya because if I do he will cut off the supply line to the force east of Shilka. Right now I have no other reserves to throw up there. As it is I am taking partisan damage at Harbin from under garrisoning although I have a small unit enroute to seal that up.

At the risk of continuing a hijack- sorry Seydlitz! However... I think we are all trying to help rather than hijack.   Soviet communications between units that were outside of shouting range was atrocious (lack of radios, poor radios, bad training, leadership purges) at this point of the war.  Because of that Soviet arty was firing blind much of the time which is akin to firing randomly into a given map grid. 

All this aside, it looks like your (Seydlitz) technique is a proper one to use and if the Allied Command does not start to do the same thing, I suspect their bombardment attacks will become increasingly ineffective.

Turn 58 2 Feb 1942

The turn started with definitive proof as to why I am having to escort everything with cruisers or capital ships in the Russian theater. Near Okha, a Soviet surface combat TF lead by Stalin tried to intercept one of my transport TFs heading towards Okha.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Okha at 128,36, Range 10,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Yamashiro, Shell hits 7
CL Katori, Shell hits 1
xAK Sinko Maru, Shell hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Nitti Maru
xAK Toko Maru, Shell hits 1
xAK Delagoa Maru, Shell hits 1
PB Taian Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
PB Tokati Maru
xAK Hokusin Maru, Shell hits 3
PB Choko Maru #5, Shell hits 1, heavy fires
PB Okiyu Maru, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
DD Tblisi, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
DD Rastoropnyi
DD Rezhtelnyi
DD Buistro
DD Stalin, Shell hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Revanch

Japanese ground losses:
127 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 9 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



Improved night sighting under 96% moonlight...
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 96% moonlight: 12,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 12,000 yards...
Range closes to 10,000 yards......
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 10,000 yards...
Domostoy H. crosses the 'T'...
BB Yamashiro engages DD Revanch at 10,000 yards...
BB Yamashiro engages DD Stalin at 10,000 yards...
DD Stalin engages PB Choko Maru #5 at 10,000 yards...
BB Yamashiro engages DD Rastoropnyi at 10,000 yards...
DD Stalin engages PB Taian Maru at 10,000 yards...
DD Rastoropnyi engages xAK Hokusin Maru at 10,000 yards...
DD Stalin engages xAK Delagoa Maru at 10,000 yards...
DD Stalin engages xAK Sinko Maru at 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
BB Yamashiro engages DD Revanch at 9,000 yards...
CL Katori engages DD Revanch at 9,000 yards...
BB Yamashiro engages DD Buistro at 9,000 yards...
DD Stalin engages PB Choko Maru #5 at 9,000 yards...
BB Yamashiro engages DD Rastoropnyi at 9,000 yards...
DD Buistro engages PB Taian Maru at 9,000 yards...
DD Stalin engages xAK Hokusin Maru at 9,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
BB Yamashiro engages DD Revanch at 8,000 yards...
CL Katori engages DD Revanch at 8,000 yards...
DD Stalin engages PB Okiyu Maru at 8,000 yards...
DD Stalin engages PB Choko Maru #5 at 8,000 yards...
DD Rastoropnyi engages xAK Delagoa Maru at 8,000 yards...
BB Yamashiro engages DD Tblisi at 8,000 yards...
DD Stalin engages xAK Hokusin Maru at 8,000 yards...
DD Stalin engages xAK Toko Maru at 8,000 yards...
DD Stalin engages xAK Sinko Maru at 8,000 yards...
Range increases to 9,000 yards...
BB Yamashiro engages DD Revanch at 9,000 yards...
CL Katori engages DD Stalin at 9,000 yards...
BB Yamashiro engages DD Rezhtelnyi at 9,000 yards...
DD Stalin engages xAK Hokusin Maru at 9,000 yards...
DD Stalin engages xAK Delagoa Maru at 9,000 yards...
DD Stalin engages xAK Toko Maru at 9,000 yards...
DD Stalin engages xAK Sinko Maru at 9,000 yards...
Range increases to 12,000 yards...
BB Yamashiro engages DD Revanch at 12,000 yards...
BB Yamashiro engages DD Stalin at 12,000 yards...
DD Buistro engages PB Okiyu Maru at 12,000 yards...
BB Yamashiro engages DD Rezhtelnyi at 12,000 yards...
BB Yamashiro engages DD Rastoropnyi at 12,000 yards...
DD Tblisi sunk by BB Yamashiro at 12,000 yards...[:D]
DD Revanch engages xAK Hokusin Maru at 12,000 yards...
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape... Proof that this is the Allied Edition???[:D]
Task forces break off......

Someone needs to tell the captain of the Yamashiro that he was lucky to escape from the clutches of Stalin.[:-]

That Stalin, he's everywhere.[8D]

This whole Soviet activation war remains and is becoming even more so interesting.  I think their is a lot for all of us to learn from this that will help a Japanese player be even more effective in a conventional conflict.  Thanks Seydlitz!   I enjoy playing the Japanese much more than the Allies because of the logistical issues but would really enjoy being the Allies in this game.  If your opponent drops out of the game, let me know.

Here is a summary of the TF after the battle...

Yamashiro is fine although she is running low on ammo for her midships main guns.

Here is the Ise TF as they approach the southern end of the Sea of Japan. They made a two turn high speed run through enemy waters from Alexandrovsk. Nagato and Hyuga will be going into drydock on arrival at Kure.

This turn, I had a unit of zeroes flying cap over Okha and LRCAP over Alexandrovsk. In addition, the base unit that I brought in to Okha had radar. He tried his standard wave of airstrikes at every task force around Sakhalin Island like he has been doing every turn. This time, however, zeroes and nates intercepted every one of his strikes. Out of 12+ strikes, bombers made it through to the ships only twice, and no ships were hit. We did notch up a few bomber and seaplane kills.

Here are the combat summaries for the bombardment exchanges at Voroshilov. Next turn my units will be back in the saddle and start bombarding him again.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Voroshilov (112,45)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 16804 troops, 504 guns, 585 vehicles, Assault Value = 2301

Defending force 86896 troops, 1764 guns, 1171 vehicles, Assault Value = 2401

Japanese ground losses:
241 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Allied ground losses:
53 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 4 (0 destroyed, 4 disabled)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Voroshilov (112,45)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 77301 troops, 1615 guns, 1118 vehicles, Assault Value = 2398

Defending force 109621 troops, 1209 guns, 1293 vehicles, Assault Value = 2293

Japanese ground losses:
1673 casualties reported
Squads: 11 destroyed, 11 disabled
Non Combat: 74 destroyed, 56 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 23 disabled
Guns lost 71 (37 destroyed, 34 disabled)
Vehicles lost 38 (17 destroyed, 21 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
10 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape... Proof that this is the Allied Edition???

Actually, it makes sense because even though you've got powerful surface forces they are in an amphib TF, which should indicate "protect the phibs above all else". If they went after the DDs and another Soviet TF came in when they were off station or out of ammo.... I would want my amphib TF ships to stay defensive.

I would assume if they were in an SCTF leading the phibs they might be more aggressive. Kind of the difference between a sweep and an escort.