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Lowpe, Pax, I really appreciate you guys but your comments really made me shutter and to some extend laugh. I try to answer you separately. At first I thought I would just leave it as it is as it might not be spending time on something but wasting it, so I was curious as to how it turns out and I might even get surprised. Turns out to be much more waste thand spend. But hey...

Lowpe, I quote what you have written above:

I have never, ever tried to win the altitude race.

This and the advice of Pax to look at the AAR obvert vs lowpe I used google search and there you go, it puts me into page 48 of obvert's AAR. Scrolling down I start to find A2A engagements and my smile got bigger:

fb.asp?m=4514867


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR August 16, 1942
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Cam Ranh Bay , at 64,72

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 19 NM, estimated altitude 34,550 feet. [:-]
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 81
A6M2-N Rufe x 20
A6M3 Zero x 10
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 11

Allied aircraft
P-38E Lightning x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
A6M2-N Rufe: 2 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38E Lightning: 1 destroyed


17 Lightnings on a strato sweep vs 7 times more fighters on CAP, I guess layered one? Massacre... sure the Lightning is better but without the unevitable dive it would have been different. Why were the P-38 set to max alt if that's so silly?



scrolling further down...


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR August 22, 1942

Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 31 NM, estimated altitude 38,550 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 18

Allied aircraft
P-38E Lightning x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 3 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
50th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes


really? A strato sweep? Must have been by accident?


srolling on...



AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sept 3, 1942
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 59 NM, estimated altitude 37,000 feet.[:-]
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 34

Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 1
Hurricane IIa Trop x 10
P-40E Warhawk x 12

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIa Trop: 1 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 3 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x A6M3 Zero sweeping at 32000 feet SERIOUS???


took halve a page to finally find a Japanese sweep, looking pretty much like a max altitude sweep. WHAT A RESULT!! Wow, must be by accident, the sweep from an altitude the enemy can't even reach surely didn't take advantage of the dive... LMAO about the comment "I have never, ever tried to win the altitude race"



at this point I was already into waste of time mood... but hey, let's scroll on a couple of pages later, perhaps I'm just super lucky to find such really rare examples... ok...



AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 12, 1942
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Bering Island , at 148,44

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 25 NM, estimated altitude 34,000 feet. [:-] now that's a really low alt sweep...
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 44

Allied aircraft
P-38F Lightning x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 9 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38F Lightning: 3 destroyed


next massacre until the dive ended for sure... layered CAP?


should I stop here? Nah... just scroll down a bit more and waste another 2 min of reading...


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 14, 1942
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on 35th Division, at 86,43 , near Loyang

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 35,900 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 4
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 2
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 2
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 1

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 2 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 31900 feet *


even the Hurricanes go in at their max altitude and now? Those fighters aren't P-38 and they still murder the enemy... I'm 100% sure the dive had nothing to do with it...


according to posts' date this was all at the end of 2018 and the beginning of 2019

not sure what I should really comment more on it, that was the first hour I was actually wasting

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo



Eric would agree with this I believe as well.

The counter(s) to the dive are both numerous, well developed, and highly successful. Proving once again how robust the ACM the Ian developed truly is.

The race to altitude has been quite over now for 3 or 4 years …

totally disagree here. Othern than The Elf admitting that something was wrong (after years of playing one of the three monkeys) there was never a change.[&:]

Castor,

You don't have to agree, but don't ever play any of the better players now as the allies or you will not like your outcome in the air war at all. Read any obvert or lowpe AAR's in particular for discussions about CAP strategies (you will need to go back a couple or 3 years ago).

While you were gone, the dive was completely solved. Put your Bolts at max altitude sweep against the better players now, and you will soon have no Bolts and for very comparable losses on the IJ side (which is saying something because the IJ planes are quite inferior to the Bolt as we well know). search for "layered CAP" ... the counter actually induces the dive tactic to kill the attacker.

I know you don't believe, but you should stop ranting about the "dive". The issue is now known to be the player, not the game. [;)] And yes, Ian has stopped by in the interim to check it out ...

After having played way over 10,000 PBEM turns in the last 16 years with an absence of three years due to having decided it would have been cool to have a crash with my motorbike I finally get enlighted that the only reason I have been playing this game rather succesful was the fact that all my opponents were noobs. Having looked ONLY for experienced players, well known on the forum, I ended up having such great die rolls during the opponent search pahse that all I received were bad opponents having no clue about the game, or better say the air routine.[:D] My last PBEM ended due to my accident, pretty much all of the rest ended either due to decisive victories or many opponents vanishing due to "real life issues" just to see them start another game two weeks later. We have all been there, so nothing new. Some of those guys over the years are now seen as the grand masters of this game, being praised, I guess back then they must have been just noobs.[8|]

I did exactly what you have written above, just to quote the examples out of Obvert's AAR in my post above. This not enough, I decided to spend more hours setting up the usual tests which I've been doing hundreds of hours before over all the years when I just couldn't believe what people were claiming. The coordination silliness comes to mind, a guide being praised over time, done by a guy without any real PBEM experience making up claims that pretty much all (except EXP) were refuted. Over the years it all became true, feels like what we call operational blindness in Austria.

But before the test I was going through patch note after patch note and I just couldn't find the line that stated anything that could mean the dive or strato sweeps were solved but I admit, with hundreds and hundreds of lines I could have missed it and might be happy if someone could point it out. So I just went ahead.

Always the same aircraft against each other, always the same pilots. It was Frank vs Corsair, equal numbers, no radar.

Frank sweeping Corsairs at different altitudes but the Frank always 5000ft higher than the Corsairs, ten rounds.

Result: 8 out of 10 times the Franks received the dive bonus, 8 out of 10 times the Franks shooting up the Corsairs during the dive. When the dive ended it was a slight advantage for the Corsairs (at every altitude) in kill ratio but they could never make up for the losses during the Franks diving. No idea why two times there was no dive for the Franks at the beginning.

Next step:

Corsairs sweeping Franks at different altitudes but the Corsair alwas 5000ft higher than the Franks, ten rounds.

Result: First thing that was surprising me, 10 out of 10 times the Corsairs got the dive right at the start. Same result as with the Franks, the Corsairs were downing the Franks at will. DIVE - shooting from behind - kill. Note that without the dive you hardly get "xy shooting from behind at yx".

Ok, nothing new here.

Next step:

Same two examples with the CAP being split in three and being layered.

Result: the only notable difference was that this time also the Franks got the dive 10 out of 10 times, for what reason ever. Outcome was the same, the fighter getting the dive massacred the other fighter DURING the dive phase. When the dive ended it was always the Corsair performing better, no matter if offense or defense (no surprise I guess?).

Next step:

The sweeper is set LOWER than the CAP, 10 rounds each.

Result: must be extremely surprising to everyone... while it was only 7 out of 10 times that the Frank on CAP was diving on the sweeping and lower Corsair it was only 6 out of 10 times the Corsair diving on the lower sweeping Frank. But when the CAP actually got the dive it was the same as always, butchering the (this time lower) sweeper. Not once in those 20 rounds the sweeper got the dive, but I guess that shouldn't surprise anybody? Does it? [>:] Again, no dive, it was equal fight, the Corsair winning.

Last step:

Sweeper and CAP both set to the same altitude, differing over the rounds.

Big picture was, mmmm, I guess great outcome. A low number of times it was either the CAP or the sweeper getting the dive (same outcome with massacres during the dive all the time) but most of the time when there was a dive it ended pretty much instantly, turning into A2A with nearly no "xy shooting at yx from behind" and the Corsair winning both times as the sweeper and the CAP. Kill rates without the not ending dives never exceeded 2:1, neither for the Corsair nor the Frank. Highest (totally off-) outcome were 19 Franks shot down for 2 Corsairs lost. Guess when? Yeah, during the Corsair sweeping higher than the Frank on CAP. Best outcome for the Frank was also an impressing 13:3 during a high alt sweep on low Corsairs. Of course if you compare the kill rates then that's 9:1 for the Corsair at best for 4:1 for the Frank at best. But only if you compare those two single sweeps and the 9:1 would turn into only a 6:1 if the Franks would have shot down one more Corsair.

At this point it already took me several hours to take notes, repeat and so on, not even including the time it takes me to write these two posts in my AAR which brings me close to wasting my time mood again. The result was clear though, the dive bonus is there, it's huge and nothing has been solved. [8|] Same as I see in my current game and every AAR that isn't just a text AAR but posting FULL combat reports. NOTE: I have never said having an altitude advantage shouldn't be an advantage as it sure is but the dive has such a huge impact it creates way too many loops and while many people here are just used to see those loops. Funny thing, if you do all the A2A at 15000 ft you get way better results. Better pilots in better aircraft still win high, but they aren't flying x-fighters in War in the Pacific.

If you like loops, you like the results. If you have read a book and realize a 9:1 isn't a normal result when equal skilled pilots meet in pretty much equal aircraft then you don't like the results. One thing to say at the end, from havying discussed things on private with two ex-members of the AE team I was told that the air routine was the most dissatisfying routine. Both of these great guys aren't around anymore and both left in anger due to different reason. [:(]

edit: I used the latest beta patch of course.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Aug 25, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Boela at 82,110

Japanese Ships
YO J-3847
PB Fukkai Maru

Allied Ships
SS O21

I'm not used to still see Dutch subs around at this point...


SS O21 is sighted by escort
PB Fukkai Maru fails to find sub, continues to search...
PB Fukkai Maru fails to find sub, continues to search...
PB Fukkai Maru fails to find sub, continues to search...
PB Fukkai Maru fails to find sub, continues to search...
PB Fukkai Maru fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Addu at 15,49

Japanese Ships
SS I-30

Allied Ships
xAK Sepia
xAK Marietta E
xAK Empire Glen
xAK Indira
DD Racehorse

finally a sub manages to avoid the single escort of this convoy just to miss the freighter... [8|]


SS I-30 launches 2 torpedoes at xAK Sepia
I-30 diving deep ....
DD Racehorse attacking submerged sub ....
DD Racehorse fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Racehorse attacking submerged sub ....
DD Racehorse cannot reach attack position over SS I-30
DD Racehorse fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Racehorse fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Siquijor at 76,87

Japanese Ships
SC Ch 16
SC Ch 17
TK Syoyo Maru
TK San Pedro Maru
TK Kiyo Maru
TK Hakko Maru
SC Ch 48
SC Ch 44
SC Ch 42

Allied Ships
SS Cod

these subchasers all have surface radar already, perhaps it will make a difference at some point...

SS Cod launches 2 torpedoes at SC Ch 16
Cod diving deep ....
SC Ch 48 fails to find sub and abandons search
SC Ch 44 fails to find sub and abandons search
SC Ch 42 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC Ch 42 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC Ch 42 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC Ch 42 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC Ch 42 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC Ch 42 fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Aug 26, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Cooktown at 94,136

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 9
N1K2-J George x 16

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
xAP Kedah, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AM Katoomba, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp


the remaining ships (at least 15) have left Horn Island yesterday and I decided to strike at 11 hexes today... only the smaller convoy was still in range and this time we had Betties attacking... out of 100+ available we get 9 to launch to sink another two small ships... in total the enemy has lost something like 8-10 ships in bringing some supply and troops to Horn Island...

otherwise the game has become extremely quiet again, Mundy stated he has a lot going behind the scene, guess he has to rearrange his ships, aircraft and troops after the defeat in the Marshalls... without his carriers he can't do anything spectacular and if he does he will pay a price... directly after the battle in the Marshalls we have sent all parts of the Kido Butai plus several other ships to undergo their mid 43 upgrades...

Castor,

The technique is referred to as "layered CAP". Many layers (airgroups on CAP) at differing altitudes. Choosing what aircraft type to put at what level is where the discussions within Lowpe and obvert AAR's (not just the one against each other, but the others as well).

I am NOT expert in this as the AI does not sweep often (actually very rarely) and never strato sweeps. So I can only give you the gist of the technique.

1. Top layer, best overall fighter (Frank generally) in the middle of it highest, best manouver, zone. somewhere 15,000 to 20,000 generally

2. Bottom layer, highest MAN plane you have (oscar) at a low level, generally 5-10K.

3 Middle Layers. Depending upon how many air groups you have, you can end up with quite a few layers here. Spacing matters, you want the Dive to keep going lower and lower.

The idea is that the strato-fighters keep getting pulled lower and lower by the "enticing" layer beneath them. This gives the upper layers the ability to dive on the stratos. It also lowers the amount of time for the "ready" CAP fighter to get to altitude to fight effectively.

A single layer CAP cannot counter the strato-sweep. It take multiple layers to do it ....

I'm not belittling you, but during your convalescence from your accident you completely missed all of this. This is now as basic of a tactic as is taking CHI out of the war for the IJ.

Others can provide far more details than I can, and within the AAR's there are very detailed discussions of this during its development and then again much later as a recap (in an obvert AAR I think for the latter).

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Castor,

The technique is referred to as "layered CAP". Many layers (airgroups on CAP) at differing altitudes. Choosing what aircraft type to put at what level is where the discussions within Lowpe and obvert AAR's (not just the one against each other, but the others as well).

I am NOT expert in this as the AI does not sweep often (actually very rarely) and never strato sweeps. So I can only give you the gist of the technique.

1. Top layer, best overall fighter (Frank generally) in the middle of it highest, best manouver, zone. somewhere 15,000 to 20,000 generally

2. Bottom layer, highest MAN plane you have (oscar) at a low level, generally 5-10K.

3 Middle Layers. Depending upon how many air groups you have, you can end up with quite a few layers here. Spacing matters, you want the Dive to keep going lower and lower.

The idea is that the strato-fighters keep getting pulled lower and lower by the "enticing" layer beneath them. This gives the upper layers the ability to dive on the stratos. It also lowers the amount of time for the "ready" CAP fighter to get to altitude to fight effectively.

A single layer CAP cannot counter the strato-sweep. It take multiple layers to do it ....

I'm not belittling you, but during your convalescence from your accident you completely missed all of this. This is now as basic of a tactic as is taking CHI out of the war for the IJ.

Others can provide far more details than I can, and within the AAR's there are very detailed discussions of this during its development and then again much later as a recap (in an obvert AAR I think for the latter).

Pax, I didn't miss this! Layered CAP was discussed up and down like strato sweeps were when I was still around for years. Please look up into that post above again, one round with ten battles each was done with layered CAP. The CAP had THREE layers. When layered CAP really helps is when you have bombers coming very low. Won't help you having your fighters all at 34k when the bombers get through in numbers at 6000ft.

It's not new, it's not three years old, it's way older. And those telling me they aren't trying to get an altitude advantage apparantly miss what they are doing in their games and even posting it in their AARs. [8|] I only went through two pages of Obvert's AAR and the air combat examples I found there are perfectly matching what I'm saying, not the other way around, which feels totally crazy to me as people are claiming high alt isn't working anymore but that's exactly what they are doing and the layered CAP, well, just lol.

Layered CAP has an effect but it is nowhere nearly negating a strato sweep. The bonus for the dive is so ridicoulos and it has never been changed. All that was done was a single comment on the forum of TheElf (after years of battling) that they (whoever that was) looked into it again and found something to be wrong. I have ever been waiting for the correction since. [:(]

Must be amazing why I am not sending in sweeps at 10000ft when that would be so much more effective.

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Castor,

The technique is referred to as "layered CAP". Many layers (airgroups on CAP) at differing altitudes. Choosing what aircraft type to put at what level is where the discussions within Lowpe and obvert AAR's (not just the one against each other, but the others as well).

I am NOT expert in this as the AI does not sweep often (actually very rarely) and never strato sweeps. So I can only give you the gist of the technique.

1. Top layer, best overall fighter (Frank generally) in the middle of it highest, best manouver, zone. somewhere 15,000 to 20,000 generally

2. Bottom layer, highest MAN plane you have (oscar) at a low level, generally 5-10K.

3 Middle Layers. Depending upon how many air groups you have, you can end up with quite a few layers here. Spacing matters, you want the Dive to keep going lower and lower.

The idea is that the strato-fighters keep getting pulled lower and lower by the "enticing" layer beneath them. This gives the upper layers the ability to dive on the stratos. It also lowers the amount of time for the "ready" CAP fighter to get to altitude to fight effectively.

A single layer CAP cannot counter the strato-sweep. It take multiple layers to do it ....

I'm not belittling you, but during your convalescence from your accident you completely missed all of this. This is now as basic of a tactic as is taking CHI out of the war for the IJ.

Others can provide far more details than I can, and within the AAR's there are very detailed discussions of this during its development and then again much later as a recap (in an obvert AAR I think for the latter).

Pax, I didn't miss this! Layered CAP was discussed up and down like strato sweeps were when I was still around for years. Please look up into that post above again, one round with ten battles each was done with layered CAP. The CAP had THREE layers. When layered CAP really helps is when you have bombers coming very low. Won't help you having your fighters all at 34k when the bombers get through in numbers at 6000ft.

It's not new, it's not three years old, it's way older. And those telling me they aren't trying to get an altitude advantage apparantly miss what they are doing in their games and even posting it in their AARs. [8|] I only went through two pages of Obvert's AAR and the air combat examples I found there are perfectly matching what I'm saying, not the other way around, which feels totally crazy to me as people are claiming high alt isn't working anymore but that's exactly what they are doing and the layered CAP, well, just lol.

Layered CAP has an effect but it is nowhere nearly negating a strato sweep. The bonus for the dive is so ridicoulos and it has never been changed. All that was done was a single comment on the forum of TheElf (after years of battling) that they (whoever that was) looked into it again and found something to be wrong. I have ever been waiting for the correction since. [:(]

Must be amazing why I am not sending in sweeps at 10000ft when that would be so much more effective.

Got a link to said post from TheElf?

I ask as it would need to be a very damning comment to respond to Alfred's comments here.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3623378

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Castor,

The technique is referred to as "layered CAP". Many layers (airgroups on CAP) at differing altitudes. Choosing what aircraft type to put at what level is where the discussions within Lowpe and obvert AAR's (not just the one against each other, but the others as well).

I am NOT expert in this as the AI does not sweep often (actually very rarely) and never strato sweeps. So I can only give you the gist of the technique.

1. Top layer, best overall fighter (Frank generally) in the middle of it highest, best manouver, zone. somewhere 15,000 to 20,000 generally

2. Bottom layer, highest MAN plane you have (oscar) at a low level, generally 5-10K.

3 Middle Layers. Depending upon how many air groups you have, you can end up with quite a few layers here. Spacing matters, you want the Dive to keep going lower and lower.

The idea is that the strato-fighters keep getting pulled lower and lower by the "enticing" layer beneath them. This gives the upper layers the ability to dive on the stratos. It also lowers the amount of time for the "ready" CAP fighter to get to altitude to fight effectively.

A single layer CAP cannot counter the strato-sweep. It take multiple layers to do it ....

I'm not belittling you, but during your convalescence from your accident you completely missed all of this. This is now as basic of a tactic as is taking CHI out of the war for the IJ.

Others can provide far more details than I can, and within the AAR's there are very detailed discussions of this during its development and then again much later as a recap (in an obvert AAR I think for the latter).

Pax, I didn't miss this! Layered CAP was discussed up and down like strato sweeps were when I was still around for years. Please look up into that post above again, one round with ten battles each was done with layered CAP. The CAP had THREE layers. When layered CAP really helps is when you have bombers coming very low. Won't help you having your fighters all at 34k when the bombers get through in numbers at 6000ft.

It's not new, it's not three years old, it's way older. And those telling me they aren't trying to get an altitude advantage apparantly miss what they are doing in their games and even posting it in their AARs. [8|] I only went through two pages of Obvert's AAR and the air combat examples I found there are perfectly matching what I'm saying, not the other way around, which feels totally crazy to me as people are claiming high alt isn't working anymore but that's exactly what they are doing and the layered CAP, well, just lol.

Layered CAP has an effect but it is nowhere nearly negating a strato sweep. The bonus for the dive is so ridicoulos and it has never been changed. All that was done was a single comment on the forum of TheElf (after years of battling) that they (whoever that was) looked into it again and found something to be wrong. I have ever been waiting for the correction since. [:(]

Must be amazing why I am not sending in sweeps at 10000ft when that would be so much more effective.

Got a link to said post from TheElf?

I ask as it would need to be a very damning comment to respond to Alfred's comments here.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3623378

gonna try to find something but with that kind of search function I'm not sure.

Found a thread and I commented the same in 2010:

fb.asp?m=2559304

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well the debate had burned out and now just smolders in the background. Occasionly, a brushfire will break out. I am guessing one might start up now. Caster Troy, you want to take this one?




not really, everything has been said on this issue I guess. Not that I would feel it is anywhere correct nor better than WITP where altitude did NOT matter at all. I just want to point out that it first long was said by the responsible person everything is fine until we reached the point that the air team lead actually was admitting it would be kind of an exploit.

Unfortunetely even that it now is admitted it would be an exploit, it doesn´t seem that there would be any thoughts of changing something which makes me a bit sad. While I am fine with hrs on lots of things, I have yet to think of any I would accept on this matter.

Here's one of the posts of TheElf:

fb.asp?m=2565252

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

excellent explanation. The problem (if you want to call it problem) in the game is that you can reverse this result easily with using the exact same two units but have the Zeroes 50ft higher than the Hurricanes. 20:0 kill rates aren´t the norm, but having my P-38 constantly achieving something like 10:1 is the norm for me. I guess with the Zeroes 50ft higher than the Hurricanes you wouldn´t get a 20:0 for the Zeroes but the difference to the 20:0 for the Hurricanes would be enormous. I would bet the Zeroes would come out as the winner.



So you are saying it is problematic for one side to be victorious on one turn then suffer a defeat on the next?

quote:

And that is the problem with the game. The real life explanation is a nice read and surely correct, applied to the game... well, a better advise would be to say: "just get your fighters 50ft higher than your enemies". But it´s like you´ve said, it´s gaming the system. But the main reason for the 20:0 was the dive. My P-38 at best get a 1:1 against Tojos, Zekes, Oscars, Tonies, Jacks if you don´t get the dive, with the dive, say good bye to the Japanese. And yes, give the Tojos, Zekes, Oscars,... the dive and say good bye to the P-38.



It's gaming the system because everyone knows that none of these Aircraft routinely flew at the max ceiling. If you do it, and you achieve the sort of results you are seeing you should immediately take a shower because you are the problem and you should feel dirty. You are demanding historically accurate results from a tactic that was not historical. YOU and your OPPONENT have the power to be reasonable about employing your Air Forces. And when you don't you blame the code. Well, the code was written to replicate real world Air combat in WWII in 3 dimensions as closely as we could in the time and within the scope we were given. What you have now is the result of that. The funny thing is I have posted many ways to play within the code, within reason, and I continue to see the same people raise the same complaints about their OWN gameplay. I have no control over your gameplay.

quote:

One more thing is of course to say it´s gaming the system while on the other hand to say it´s working and giving a real life explanation. Not all but a hell a lot people ended up in the spiral going up and up and up and up until everyone ended up at the fighters ceiling because these people thought the dive is all they want. So it seems there must be something behind the dive being so powerful (uber IMO when you change a 10:1 into a 1:1 for example). And most often you get the never ending dive, which is what leads to these massacres. No problem with a bounce when higher fighters take out two or three suprised enemies, taking out whole squadrons with a never ending dive seems a bit out of whack.



When flown using reasonable/historical altitudes, or if you are ignorant of this aspect of Air combat, at altitudes approximating an Aircraft's critical altitude, the code will give you the results you are looking for. One of you will still get an advantage, and the other will have to stack up as many pluses in the plus category, and as few Minuses in the minus category to overcome the initial advantages of each engagement. Pretty simple.

If you can get permission for me to explore coding the ignorance out of players, by all means have Joe contact me...

There were other posts, but there was never a solution to it. And there was a post where he finally admitted that it's not only gaming the system but that there was also something wrong and they were looking at it. After years of battling. Result: nada

Saying it's gaming the system is clearly telling me that the dive is more powerful than it should be so it's up to players not to game the system. They still do and come up with the solution of layered CAP, lol.

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Here's one of the posts of TheElf:

fb.asp?m=2565252

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

excellent explanation. The problem (if you want to call it problem) in the game is that you can reverse this result easily with using the exact same two units but have the Zeroes 50ft higher than the Hurricanes. 20:0 kill rates aren´t the norm, but having my P-38 constantly achieving something like 10:1 is the norm for me. I guess with the Zeroes 50ft higher than the Hurricanes you wouldn´t get a 20:0 for the Zeroes but the difference to the 20:0 for the Hurricanes would be enormous. I would bet the Zeroes would come out as the winner.



So you are saying it is problematic for one side to be victorious on one turn then suffer a defeat on the next?

quote:

And that is the problem with the game. The real life explanation is a nice read and surely correct, applied to the game... well, a better advise would be to say: "just get your fighters 50ft higher than your enemies". But it´s like you´ve said, it´s gaming the system. But the main reason for the 20:0 was the dive. My P-38 at best get a 1:1 against Tojos, Zekes, Oscars, Tonies, Jacks if you don´t get the dive, with the dive, say good bye to the Japanese. And yes, give the Tojos, Zekes, Oscars,... the dive and say good bye to the P-38.



It's gaming the system because everyone knows that none of these Aircraft routinely flew at the max ceiling. If you do it, and you achieve the sort of results you are seeing you should immediately take a shower because you are the problem and you should feel dirty. You are demanding historically accurate results from a tactic that was not historical. YOU and your OPPONENT have the power to be reasonable about employing your Air Forces. And when you don't you blame the code. Well, the code was written to replicate real world Air combat in WWII in 3 dimensions as closely as we could in the time and within the scope we were given. What you have now is the result of that. The funny thing is I have posted many ways to play within the code, within reason, and I continue to see the same people raise the same complaints about their OWN gameplay. I have no control over your gameplay.

quote:

One more thing is of course to say it´s gaming the system while on the other hand to say it´s working and giving a real life explanation. Not all but a hell a lot people ended up in the spiral going up and up and up and up until everyone ended up at the fighters ceiling because these people thought the dive is all they want. So it seems there must be something behind the dive being so powerful (uber IMO when you change a 10:1 into a 1:1 for example). And most often you get the never ending dive, which is what leads to these massacres. No problem with a bounce when higher fighters take out two or three suprised enemies, taking out whole squadrons with a never ending dive seems a bit out of whack.



When flown using reasonable/historical altitudes, or if you are ignorant of this aspect of Air combat, at altitudes approximating an Aircraft's critical altitude, the code will give you the results you are looking for. One of you will still get an advantage, and the other will have to stack up as many pluses in the plus category, and as few Minuses in the minus category to overcome the initial advantages of each engagement. Pretty simple.

If you can get permission for me to explore coding the ignorance out of players, by all means have Joe contact me...

Let me quote that back at you (emphasis mine)

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 02, 43
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Sub attack near Addu at 16,49

Japanese Ships
SS I-165

Allied Ships
CL Capetown

SS I-165 launches 4 torpedoes
I-165 diving deep ....
Sub escapes detection

unescorted British cruiser, would have been nice to hit her... don't know if that ship was going to or coming from Ceylon...

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 04, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Arorae at 140,136



Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 55

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 8 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
xAK Cape John
xAK Charles H Cramp, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Alabaman, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
xAK Canadian, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
xAK Ensley City
xAK Cape Trinity, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
xAK George Davidson
DD Wilson
DD Stack
xAK Alaskan, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Pennsylvanian
xAK Trento, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
xAK Cape Lambert, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Chickasaw City, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk


even some action today... we have spotted this task force yesterday when it was further SW and I was sure it was a convoy that was not supposed to be in this area, most likely returning to Hawaii or the West Coast... a Mavis detected the convoy and I didn't expect it to further head in this direction but Mundy must have missed it... just to make sure we have flown some 90 Betties to Tarawa and set them to nav attack, 10% search... the convoy was already spotted during the morning but hey, no strike was launched for whatever reason... in the afternoon the convoy was again spotted and this time we even launch a good sized strike that finds the target, sinking 8 empty freighters...



Aircraft Attacking:
25 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
19 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
10 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp

Massive explosion on xAK Canadian


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Arorae at 140,136

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 61 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 21 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
xAK Ensley City, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Cape Cumberland
xAK Ohioan

even a small follow on strike showed up sinking another freighter, that's 9 for the day... [:)] we lose three bombers to flak, one crew killed... the convoy is only 8 hexes from Tarawa and the bombers are set to 17 hexes strike range so we might even get the chance to hit them again tomorrow (most likely not)...


Aircraft Attacking:
9 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp

My opponent did something like that he lost track of a large amphibious convoy and wandered too close to an area he knew my KB was operating. He lost almost every ship and several units 12,000+ troops and 14 ships. Unfortunately we don't always get away with our mistakes.

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

My opponent did something like that he lost track of a large amphibious convoy and wandered too close to an area he knew my KB was operating. He lost almost every ship and several units 12,000+ troops and 14 ships. Unfortunately we don't always get away with our mistakes.

I guess this has happened to all of us at some point. You forget to set a waypoint or return the same route and voila, you find your ships in the range of enemy bombers.

We spotted the same convoy 14 hexes from Tarawa the next turn also but during the morning all squadrons failed to locate the target due to range or weather and in the afternoon they didn't even launch. [8|]

Turn 640 and supplies go through 6 mio tons for the first time so I thought that would be worth to share. The fleet engagement in the Marshalls cost us nearly 150k fuel and we were down to just below 5 mio tons, now going up again. Fuel is increasing slowly and any move of my fleet brings me into daily reds immediately.

Here's the current air R&D which I found quite interesting. All those Sam factories were converted at the same day, while the fastest repairing one has already repaired 28 factories, the slowest one only four. [X(] Shows how much R&D depends on die rolls again.

the game is moving along but there isn't much happening each turn other than the spotting of dozens of subs that don't achieve much... guess the enemy is preparing something behind the scenes but it doesn't frighten me yet considering the victory in the Marshalls... we are preparing and further strengthening our defenses even though the lines are long...


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 14, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Busuanga at 77,79

Japanese Ships
SC Ch 25, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
SC Ch 24
TK Nikkoku Maru
TK Nichiei Maru
TK Arima Maru #4
SC Ch 33
SC Ch 27

Allied Ships
SS Tuna

recently upgraded a lot of those subchasers giving them radar but it doesn't seem to make any difference...


SS Tuna launches 2 torpedoes at SC Ch 25
SC Ch 33 fails to find sub and abandons search
SC Ch 27 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC Ch 27 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC Ch 27 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC Ch 27 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC Ch 27 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC Ch 27 fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Addu at 15,49



Japanese Ships
SS I-30

Allied Ships
CL Ceres, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

just as I was pissed about losing that subchaser we get revenge off Ceylon when I-30 fires 5 torps at lonely CL Ceres... one torp tube was defective, can't remember ever seeing this message... only one torp hits but the light cruiser is heavily damaged...


SS I-30 launches 5 torpedoes at CL Ceres
I-30 diving deep ....
Sub escapes detection


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Addu at 15,49

Japanese Ships
SS I-30

Allied Ships
CL Ceres, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage


I-30 then attacks again and puts another two torps into the cruiser and sinks her... BANZAI!


CL Ceres is sighted by SS I-30
SS I-30 launches 6 torpedoes

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 21, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Addu at 14,49



Japanese Ships
SS I-23

Allied Ships
TK British Fortitude, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires

TK British Fortitude is sighted by SS I-23
SS I-23 launches 4 torpedoes at TK British Fortitude


We move along without much happening... sub attacks every couple of days for both sides, we get another tanker full of fuel today which was inbound for Ceylon... was asking when we would see some action again and Mundy told me he is plotting his moves probably preparing for something big... at the moment I feel pretty confident, with the recent Allied losses in the Marshalls we have total carrier superiority so if he goes deep it's going to be a suizide mission most likely... I have defined three areas of most likely Allied advances and there is only one where he can strike without big risk to lose his fleet and that is India which is the end of the Western map... Ceylon has over a thousand aircraft and several hundred thousand troops, recon shows some 150+ ships of different types... Mundy also mentioned he has to take care of the Gilberts at some point due to my strike out of Tarawa against one of his convoys but that is out of scope the next months I'd say as he just doesn't have the carriers to do so... we will see, I doubt that there will be much happening until the end of the year...

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 05, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 39 encounters mine field at Hakodate (119,53)

Allied Ships
SS Bonefish, Mine hits 1, on fire

[>:]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Hakodate at 119,53

Japanese Ships
TK Kanto Maru, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
SC CHa-43

Allied Ships
SS Bonefish, on fire

said it earlier, still valid... if minewarfare in WITP was so wrong why not deleting it totally instead of making it even worse? Repeating myself for the 973th time, a sub hitting a mine, then still being able to submerge and succesfully attack shipping is just totally idiotic... I'd argue if a submerged sub hitting a mine having a chance to survive is already more than questionable... in this game we have seen more than a dozen mine hits on subs, even two on the same sub and the sub still survived... I'm always searching for more apropriate words for my rants but all that suits for me as a non native speaker is the word idiotic... [8|] it's no biggie to lose that small tanker but it could as well be a carrier that is hit and then it's not all that funny...

SS Bonefish launches 4 torpedoes at TK Kanto Maru
Bonefish bottoming out ....
SC CHa-43 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC CHa-43 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC CHa-43 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC CHa-43 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC CHa-43 fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Ishigaki at 90,67

Japanese Ships
E Kanju
DD Uranami
E Iki

Allied Ships
SS Growler

SS Growler is located by E Kanju
Growler diving deep ....
DD Uranami fails to find sub, continues to search...
E Iki fails to find sub and abandons search
DD Uranami fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Uranami fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Uranami fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Uranami attacking submerged sub ....
DD Uranami fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub