Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Uemon

If i have to wait between 2 turns more than it takes me to play a turn, thats a problem.

If your only problem is relative time taken rather than absolute, you might as well be playing on much larger planets - turns on big maps will end up taking much longer for you to complete even if processing time is longer. If absolute time for AI turns is an issue, well, nvm.

(1.5m at turn 190 sounds great to me, TBH.)

ORIGINAL: Elver

ORIGINAL: Uemon

If i have to wait between 2 turns more than it takes me to play a turn, thats a problem.

If your only problem is relative time taken rather than absolute, you might as well be playing on much larger planets - turns on big maps will end up taking much longer for you to complete even if processing time is longer. If absolute time for AI turns is an issue, well, nvm.

(1.5m at turn 190 sounds great to me, TBH.)

Im not hardcore enough for that kind of experience. A video game has to have a certain flow in order to work; sitting at a static screen simply interrupts that flow. I get that its ok for some of you, and i respect that, but i also suspect its not ok for a lot of people. In my humble opinion this should be a developmental priority. I would personally not mind playing a "lobotomized" version of the game, if it meant less waiting. But like i said, thats just me.

Personally, I play on the slowest AI speed, but once turn processing starts to take too long, I just alt-tab to reading the manual or these forums...

(But also I don't think that I ever did one of my own turn in less than a quarter of an hour, except for late-game cleanup - if I even bother with continuing to play when I have clearly won.)

Consider also how MP is played for these kinds of games, AFAIK PBEMs are usually configured to be played at the speed of 1 turn per day (per player or not, depending if the turns are simultaneous or sequential), especially for games with more than 2 human players :
http://pbw.spaceempires.net/games/victory (simultaneous)

Aye, I've been playing strategy games that do their MP as PBEM and 1 turn per day for decades now (forex, playing games in the Dominions series), so I'm not daunted by the AI taking a long time to process. As with BlueTemplar, I do something on my second monitor while the game processes, then I switch back and spend 15-30m doing my turn, etc. If I were only taking a minute or two to do my turns it would be irritating to have to wait a long time, but since my own turns are drawn-out affairs it just feels like any other wargame - and I expect a very large amount of the player base is coming in with those sorts of crusty old grognard expectations just because of the publisher/genre.

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Personally, I play on the slowest AI speed, but once turn processing starts to take too long, I just alt-tab to reading the manual or these forums...

Correct me wrong, but AI speed has nothing to do with how deep it processes the game.

The setting when setting up a planet under difficulty -> give AI more time to think is the option to do that.

The only thing AI speed does it adds time between moves, so you can watch things happen - and does not affect the AI itself in any way. So if you alt-tab anyway, it is useless to set it anything other than the fastest.

No, the AI speed options are directly related to the AI's performance. The game setup option was added first and the Prefs menu option added later so people can adjust the speed back up if AI processing starts dragging on later in the game.

ORIGINAL: varangy

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

Personally, I play on the slowest AI speed, but once turn processing starts to take too long, I just alt-tab to reading the manual or these forums...

Correct me wrong, but AI speed has nothing to do with how deep it processes the game.

The setting when setting up a planet under difficulty -> give AI more time to think is the option to do that.

The only thing AI speed does it adds time between moves, so you can watch things happen - and does not affect the AI itself in any way. So if you alt-tab anyway, it is useless to set it anything other than the fastest.

If you want to see what happened, it is easiest to just look through the history after the turn processing is done.

Those settings are explicitly for how complex the AI routines should be.
I think I once heard that the old Command & Conquer games had a similar thing - the more CPU time was left over after running the game, the more would be spend on the AI routines. So AI performance actually varried based on computer performance.
No idea how precisely it is implemented however.

One cool thing that I heard that some turn-based games do (IIRC GalCiv2 ?), is that some parts of the AI turn are (pre)calculated during the player's turn !

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

One cool thing that I heard that some turn-based games do (IIRC GalCiv2 ?), is that some parts of the AI turn are (pre)calculated during the player's turn !

I never heard of such a System being used, not in GalCiv2 or elswhere.
Precalculating generally usefull stuff like the Pathfinding Network is normal, but I doubt pathfinding is a big part of the AI turn.

As other AI's can affect the gamestate before the 3rd through 15th AI player even have their turn, I am not sure how much there could be precalculated. Both in general and in Shadow Empires in particular.

Do you maybe have a keyphrase to google for? The right name means a lot.

Precalculating AI moves would work fine in games with a turn resolution method that involves everyone first planning out their moves and them then being executed simultaneously (WEGO), used by games such as the Dominions or Combat Mission series (or Kriegsspiel, one of the originators of the wargame genre from back in 1824, which relied on an umpire for turn resolution). WEGO is also much better for multiplayer compared to the "IGOUGO" turn resolution method used by Shadow Empire, since it allows everyone to do their turns at the same time rather than stringing out the process and gets rid of certain exploits like loading the savegame multiple times and performing different actions each time to gain more information. Personally, I also prefer it because I think it's a better simulation - armies do not politely take turns acting in real life.

But while it would solve a bunch of design problems, I am pretty sure it's way too late to try to graft a WEGO system onto Shadow Empire. Precalculating AI moves in an IGOUGO system is going to be rather complicated and of comparatively limited use.

Hmm, yeah, that might have been one of these games with the simultaneous planning of orders, and then simultaneous execution of orders at a later phase (on the server).
(Sorry, I don't remember more specifically - or I would have linked it. It also might have been about pathfinding...)

However, these games often have a more limited, and harder to work with interface - (especially if trying to support both (?)) - compare both modes in Space Empires 5...

Another option is to have simultaneous turns *and* immediate execution of orders (Civilization games often have this option for MP) - but IMHO it's the worst of all the options, where quick reflexes become paramount (as first mover often wins) - I might as well play a real RTS than a bastard like that !

Last but not least, an Ironman mode can be totally put in place in the immediate execution of orders and sequential turns games like Shadow Empire : see for instance Alpha Centauri, where it's not only an SP option, but in MP the other players are warned if you reload the same save multiple times !

Hmm, yeah, that might have been one of these games with the simultaneous planning of orders, and then simultaneous execution of orders at a later phase (on the server).

Ah, that makes sense. Both parties plan, both parties plans are executed in Paralell. The Matrix and Slitherine actually have a bunch of those games, classed as using a "Turn-Based WEGO" Play Style: BSG Deadlock, Combat Mission. Scramble will also fall into the Style.

It makes perfect sense that all players can plan in paralell, AI included.
The only thing that is slower then a AI in 100% of the cases, is the human...

Actually, with a WeGo system partial pre-calculation of the turn resolution might be feasible. Pre-emptive execution. But a very tricky prospect.

Last but not least, an Ironman mode can be totally put in place in the immediate execution of orders and sequential turns games like Shadow Empire : see for instance Alpha Centauri, where it's not only an SP option, but in MP the other players are warned if you reload the same save multiple times !

The issue would be, that you can kill your local process or replace the savegame with a backup easily.

It is pretty simple the get around automatic saving or recording, given that you are sitting at the Hardware side.

I figured I should probably mention this here as well as in tech support to make sure it gets seen. The old scrapping bug/exploit (where you can play a stratagem card using the requirements of a stratagem to its left in the same category by scrapping the card with the desired requirements as well as anything else between it and the card you want to play) is still around in 1.09.03b.

Bug report thread here: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... =&#4984875

bump! Some small improvements and some bug fixes

ORIGINAL: Elver

I figured I should probably mention this here as well as in tech support to make sure it gets seen. The old scrapping bug/exploit (where you can play a stratagem card using the requirements of a stratagem to its left in the same category by scrapping the card with the desired requirements as well as anything else between it and the card you want to play) is still around in 1.09.03b.

Bug report thread here: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... ey=�

should be squashed with .04

Thanks for finally adding spread out option will be a great addition in both PvE and PvP games my MP group have been holding off starting a new game for months hoping and waiting for it!

Looking forward too what will be added next!

bump!
Thanks for all the feedback once more.
New subversion posted. Some bugs fixed and other improvements. Keep an eye out if there are no weird effects with the new populace migration rules please.

best,
Vic

So nice !

-Populace migration between Zones now also takes QOL, Unrest, Danger, Private Credits reserves and Loyalty into account as well as modelling some peeps just like certain outback Zones.

Oh, so now Population is going to indirectly care about Happiness when it comes to migration ?
(Since Happiness is trending towards Loyalty, and QoL, Unrest, Danger have effects on Happiness.)

(Compared to in-zone Free Folks who always directly did.)

EDIT : Why "Populace" ? It's not like Workers (directly) migrate ..?

as well as modelling some peeps just like certain outback Zones.

I'm guessing a minimum Populace size "target" ?

-Improved AI speed by probably around 20%

HELL YEAH

-Planetoids now require you to have a Victory Score of 66 to win *
-Moons now require you to have a Victory Score of 80 to win *

Field of Glory has a interesting system. You win if you have:
- you cause at least 40% enemy casualties, and their casualties are 25% higher then yours
- you cause at least 60% enemy casualties

The first rule triggers in cases where there is a clear victor rather early.
The second one avoids close fights dragging on forever.

Such a System might be better then fixed values.