Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

First things first - I think the stuff Telemecus is doing here is really exceptional in terms of the dedication shown to really get into the nuts and bolts of what is a pretty opaque air war module. I don't think there is anything wrong with it at all in terms of 'sportsmanship' - he has always been very upfront about the way he plays and so anyone playing vs him knows what kind of game it is going to be and the kind of micromanaging moves that will be required to keep up with this.

That said, roll on the WITW/WITE2 air module as I think that what this AAR has demonstrated is that in the hands of players that are prepared to "femto-manage" (in the words of Crackaces), the current IGO/UGO air module is pretty broken in terms of a game mechanic that is accessible to 95% of the playerbase

A little funny;
Many years ago Pelton proposed that the air is overrated and not needed for a German victory. Now, some might propose the air “is too powerful” and not “historic”. The difference is player knowledge of different if not all aspects of this very complex game. I might be analogous to always playing a Ruy Lopez opening in chess and suddenly white opens with the “kings bishop game” Unexpected and given a player does not understand the ramifications it produces controversy.

On a side note .. air parody is soon on the horizon in this game. Maybe as soon as Turn 65.

On a side note .. air parody is soon on the horizon in this game. Maybe as soon as Turn 65.

I assume you mean air parity. I mean you're probably not as careful as Telemecus but I'm sure you'll do better than air parody.

A good argument for setting % required to fly to 0.

ORIGINAL: ledo

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

First things first - I think the stuff Telemecus is doing here is really exceptional in terms of the dedication shown to really get into the nuts and bolts of what is a pretty opaque air war module. I don't think there is anything wrong with it at all in terms of 'sportsmanship' - he has always been very upfront about the way he plays and so anyone playing vs him knows what kind of game it is going to be and the kind of micromanaging moves that will be required to keep up with this.

That said, roll on the WITW/WITE2 air module as I think that what this AAR has demonstrated is that in the hands of players that are prepared to "femto-manage" (in the words of Crackaces), the current IGO/UGO air module is pretty broken in terms of a game mechanic that is accessible to 95% of the playerbase

A little funny;
Many years ago Pelton proposed that the air is overrated and not needed for a German victory. Now, some might propose the air “is too powerful” and not “historic”. The difference is player knowledge of different if not all aspects of this very complex game. I might be analogous to always playing a Ruy Lopez opening in chess and suddenly white opens with the “kings bishop game” Unexpected and given a player does not understand the ramifications it produces controversy.

On a side note .. air parody is soon on the horizon in this game. Maybe as soon as Turn 65.

On a side note .. air parody is soon on the horizon in this game. Maybe as soon as Turn 65.

I assume you mean air parity. I mean you're probably not as careful as Telemecus but I'm sure you'll do better than air parody.

If you think about it .. it might be a comedic parody ! <big big smile>

On a different note .. This game is a Bitter End game. Parity is not 1:1

For every 5 planes shot down the Soviets get 100 points the Germans 25 points.
1000 men 100 guns 10 AFV's so parity is 4:1 if you consider points. It is a little more complex like considering replacement rates etc...But the points for things are about equal ..

The points for places … The Germans are accumulating points because of Moscow, Leningrad, Kharkov, Rostov, Stalino, Kiev, Sevastopol, Voronezh the Soviets have no points but if you anticipate a "BrainG" move this could balance out.

My point being that as far as "things" points -- 4:1 is parity

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

On a different note .. This game is a Bitter End game. Parity is not 1:1

For every 5 planes shot down the Soviets get 100 points the Germans 25 points.
1000 men 100 guns 10 AFV's so parity is 4:1 if you consider points. It is a little more complex like considering replacement rates etc...But the points for things are about equal ..

The points for places … The Germans are accumulating points because of Moscow, Leningrad, Kharkov, Rostov, Stalino, Kiev, Sevastopol, Voronezh the Soviets have no points but if you anticipate a "BrainG" move this could balance out.

My point being that as far as "things" points -- 4:1 is parity

So what you're saying is 1:1 would probably be parody territory rather than parity.

Very interesting read on the Axis air strategy. A well thought out and implemented strategy, I think.

I would hesitate however, to use this AAR as an argument for the Air War being lopsided in favor of the Axis. Personally, I believe that the Soviets have led a "less than inspired" air campaign. I do not think that the Soviets manage which Air Regiments receive replacements and leaving weak Air Regiments near the front with fewer than "required to fly" simply reduces them to being a drain on the Soviet air force that will simply get bombed away turn after turn after turn.

What I would recommend for the Soviets is a strategy where Air Regiments are sent to the National Reserve at thebeginning of the turn if either morale or numbers are too low. What Regiments receive replacements should then be controlled by the requirements per aircraft typåe held up against the reserve pool. Similarly, what Air Regiments are set to upgrade should be controlled by availability of better aircraft. Once Air Regiments are at 15 or so aircraft, thet hsould be sent to "assembly bases" well outside of German fighter range. From here, they can Air Transfer into combat on the following turn. Should the Germans go for unescorted bomber attacks, placing a few Air Regiments with LaGG-3's on intercept duties near the assembly bases should quickly persuade them this is a bad idea.

What I think that the AAR show is how much a slow paced player with some (or "a lot") of experience can exploit the Air war system. In reality, I think the Axis player (against an experienced slow paced Soviet player) can choose between doing ground support or protecting his own airbases. Doing both will leave him with a long Group range and "Intercept On". That can easily be exploited by doctoring the Axis to the end of their flight capacity followed by massive airfield attacks. The problem is that the German fighter production will never be able to keep up with losses, while the Soviets will early on begin producing about 200 battleworthy fighters per turn.

I have lately wondered if a house rule stating that "No airfield attacks must be conducted after turn one by either side" would not make for a better game.

One thing .. one can make an airfield attack very expensive even after the German fighters are exhausted. Have a few HQ's with LW flak around and it is quite possible to get hundreds of flak "tubes" in play. In 8MP we saw an airfield attack housing Storks result in a huge loss of bombers. It seems OKH was nearby

ORIGINAL: Dinglir
The problem is that the German fighter production will never be able to keep up with losses, while the Soviets will early on begin producing about 200 battleworthy fighters per turn.

Your numbers make assumptions that are not valid in this game.

1. LaGG-3/11 production at Taganrog was lost week 10.

2. MiG-3 production ended at Moscow on Week 13 as the factories were evacuated to save future IL-2 production. Moscow fell shortly thereafter.

3. Yak-1 production was eventually sent to the Urals as the factories were under air attack and there were not enough fighters available to protect them.

That left 66 LaGG-3 deliveries per week plus what Lend Lease could provide.

Mid September 1941 fighter production with the Yaks as yet to be moved and no Lend Lease deliveries was closer to one half of what you project, and that has a significant effect on air war planning and execution.

Soviet Fighter Numbers T000 to T054



Does not include losses from T054 Soviet action and logisitics phases

Soviet Fighter Production and Losses T000 to T054

Not just in 1941 but also for periods in 1942 losses have repeatedly exceeded production



Does not include losses from T054 Soviet action and logisitics phases

Attached is the spreadsheet used to track Soviet aircraft losses and production and to produce the above charts. Do let me know of any errors you spot.

Soviet Tank Numbers T000 to T054

Does not include losses from T054 Soviet action and logisitics phases

Attached is the spreadsheet used to track Soviet tank and other vehicle losses and production and to produce the above chart. Do let me know of any errors you spot.

U2VS and M60A3TTS: Turn 53

The ongoing saga of M60A3TTS promising to evacuate the U2VS factory to destruction - but never actually delivering - continues. Thus this announcement at the start of turn 53 on Radio Moscow (now broadcasting from Kazan) is met with scepticism.

By now the Axis team all know M60A3TTS is a closet U2VSphile in denial - we wait to see how they will get out of this one this time .... [:D]

U2VS and M60A3TTS: Turn 53 - Later on


Yeah. Sure! Like we so believe you now. Let us see how you get out of it next turn? [:D]

Well obviously the plants weren't turned over. They were needed, along with the plant manager, to serve as evidence at the trial. I refer of course to:

THE STATE

vs. General-Armii EwaldVonKleist

Charge 1: That the defendant, while serving as Commander of the Western Direction, did willfully conspire with foreign agents as well as domestic associates having Trotskyite tendencies in supporting the continuation of U-2VS aircraft production. This blatant effort to continue producing an ineffective tactical bomber alongside the extraordinarily successful IL-2 Sturmovik was in direct contravention of the orders of our Comrade and Chairman of the Committee for State Defense and General Secretary of the Communist Party Iosef Vissarionovich STALIN.

Charge 2: That the defendant, upon the realization that his conspiratorial behavior would be uncovered, did resign his command as a prelude to an attempted escape from the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

Charge 3: That the defendant authored a traitorous document composing his thoughts on total war outlining many means by which the Soviet Union could be defeated in a war against Fascist Germany and her allies.


Once the trial is concluded and the perfectly sensible verdict reached, new arrangements will be made.

Really nice to see Telemecus & Co keeping this thread and AAR still going strong! All the statistics, excel charts and detailed explanations are really top quality reading.

As a certain bloke from southeast of United States once brutally stated: "“A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.”

Come to think of it, not sure if he was from the US, I have his signature attached if you can figure it out?

Written defence by General-Armii Ewald von Kleist for the process
The State vs. General-Armii EwaldVonKleist

Charge 1: The defence industry or general industry of the Soviet Union has not been under my responsibility during my time as a field commander before and during the war. Any contact with representatives of the Soviet industry and armaments industry were strictly professional meetings to evaluate combat experience with new weapon systems. It is true that I am a long-term member of the U2-society, which is an organization to promote flying in the Soviet union to create a pool of reserve pilots for future expansion of Soviet aviation and for defence purposes. Biplanes are the cheapest and safest training aircraft. It is not known to me that the organization has ever interfered with IL2 production, which has rightfully been declared as a priority for aircraft production.
No proof exists for collaboration between myself and elements identified as Trotskyist.

Charge 2: When I asked to be relieved of command, a request which was granted by Stalin, it was solely due to overworking and total exhaustion following the first year of the war. During the last two years. I simultaneously held responsibility for two strategic directions (Northern&Western), representing the largest army group ever formed in the history of war, which has been a severe strain on my health.
No escape from the Soviet Union has ever been planned.

Charge 3: I have no connection with said document, whose author, by sheer coincidence, has the same name as me. His work contains a photography of him, which is shown below on the left side. On the right side is a photography of myself. The differences are obvious and will convince anyone that we are different people who must not be charged for a crime committed by the other one.

ORIGINAL: Nix77
As a certain bloke from southeast of United States once brutally stated: "“A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.”

Come to think of it, not sure if he was from the US, I have his signature attached if you can figure it out?

Having actually travelled through Georgia I recognised that "spaghetti" alphabet immediately - the rest is an obvious guess. And by Georgia I do not mean the state in the south east of the US!

@EvK My God! You mean there are now actually 3 EvKs!

U2VS and M60A3TTS: Turn 54

ORIGINAL: John 15:13-17 (adapted)
Greater love hath no man for U2VS, that a man lay down his Supreme Command to save its factory.