Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
I think they were talking about Pre-Warp starts and the freighters not showing up until you researched construction?

But they do show up before you've researched construction with this Mod. It was problematic during Beta testing for the Mod but ultimately decided to increase the sizes one class. At the start of the game you have one class larger size available.

Ok there must be something different in the Unleashed Extended/Retreat UE mod then. That seemed to be what I was reading about.

Ice, I noticed in a recent game that the AI puts short range weapons, like beams, on space stations. The bases can then get out ranged by enemy missiles / fighters.

I've read through the weapons balancing thread in the original post and it doesn't appear to have a discussion on appropriate space base weapon designs.

Why did you decide to prioritise short range weapons at the expense of long range weapons (fighters / missiles) for bases?

For example, the gizurean smallspaceport.txt design template has 10 beam weapons specified (WeaponBeam), presumably as the gizurean racial pref is for beams. There are no ranged weapons specified (WeaponMissile, WeaponTorpedo, Fighterbay). The spaceport, which cannot move, can then be outranged.

I understand that the research orders for a race with beam weapon priority (such as gizurean) will prioritise beam research. They are therefore likely to have significantly better beam weapons than missiles. That doesn't help much when the enemy can sit outside the higher tech beam range and the space port can do nothing about it because it can't move.

Is there any way to prioritise ranged weapons in the base templates, even for a short range weapon race, and have them substitute shorter range weapons only if they are significantly higher tech level than the longer range weapons?

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

Ice, I noticed in a recent game that the AI puts short range weapons, like beams, on space stations. The bases can then get out ranged by enemy missiles / fighters.

I've read through the weapons balancing thread in the original post and it doesn't appear to have a discussion on appropriate space base weapon designs.

Why did you decide to prioritise short range weapons at the expense of long range weapons (fighters / missiles) for bases?

For example, the gizurean smallspaceport.txt design template has 10 beam weapons specified (WeaponBeam), presumably as the gizurean racial pref is for beams. There are no ranged weapons specified (WeaponMissile, WeaponTorpedo, Fighterbay). The spaceport, which cannot move, can then be outranged.

I understand that the research orders for a race with beam weapon priority (such as gizurean) will prioritise beam research. They are therefore likely to have significantly better beam weapons than missiles. That doesn't help much when the enemy can sit outside the higher tech beam range and the space port can do nothing about it because it can't move.

Is there any way to prioritise ranged weapons in the base templates, even for a short range weapon race, and have them substitute shorter range weapons only if they are significantly higher tech level than the longer range weapons?

Yeah agree here the other problem is that all stations are set to fire only point blank range...

ORIGINAL: Sithuk
Is there any way to prioritise ranged weapons in the base templates, even for a short range weapon race, and have them substitute shorter range weapons only if they are significantly higher tech level than the longer range weapons?

Unfortunately not.

I suspect out-ranging is probably why a lot of the default designs had a mix of short and long range weapons.

As you mentioned research then needs to be split between multiple weapons paths but this doesn't just effect the spaceports, it weakens all AI ship designs. But apart from outlying colonies, taking a world isn't just about the spaceport itself, there are defensive fleets/ships to consider i.e. so the question becomes what is the best of these less than ideal options. And to be perfectly honest with you, I just got sick of the AI being so far behind in weapons techs (i.e. since I focused on one most of the time) ... it was too much of a cakewalk.

Also note the Gizurean and Sluken also focus on speed/agility to help counter attempts to out-range their ships (and the Sluken are massively faster at getting Starburners than Vanilla). I probably should have done the same with the Phaerax and Yl'ta but there was also an element of trying to ensure different races had a different character when it came to style/weapons focus.

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Yeah agree here the other problem is that all stations are set to fire only point blank range...

You guys are doing a great job of testing my distant memory ... this all seems worlds away now! I think the reason for that was because of beam weapon damage drop off. I wanted the spaceports to tractor beam in enemy ships so that they would be slaughtered more quickly at short range. For races without that problem, primarily all weapons. I'll need to check back to confirm.

Does anyone know the reason all ship designs in this mod have an Energy Collector?

I vaguely remember reading about why in one of the posts in this thread, but I can't seem to find it again...

Because it save fuel when the ship is idle.

Are ships idle enough for it to actually matter though?

Does anyone know the reason all ship designs in this mod have an Energy Collector?

The literal answer to this question is the ship designs have them added. I don't know if that answered your question, but I kinda hope it did [:)].

People will argue both ways, but for me 1 or 2 collectors isn't going to kill me. Sure I could add a few more weapons or engines, but the constant re-fueling of every ship will drive you mad. If you don't believe me, try it.

ORIGINAL: Ghost73
Are ships idle enough for it to actually matter though?

Watch the AI and see how often ships are idle ... in short, yes!

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

Ice, I noticed in a recent game that the AI puts short range weapons, like beams, on space stations. The bases can then get out ranged by enemy missiles / fighters.

It's quite late, but I can give you an exact answer to that question.

I have been working on a mod myself, trying to fix exactly those things you noticed.
However the game has a couple of hardcoded elements, such as the base accuracy of weapon types or how you can't assign priorities to used weapons. The base accuracy (not the accuracy bonus you see ingame) makes using other weapon types for longer ranges impossible. At some point I tried to make more weapon types for all ranges such as beam laser / pulse laser, blaster / rail gun etc.
That all failed when I implemented them and noticed things don't work - many days of planning and calculating down the drain.

So ultimately as a modder you can either remove half of the weapons in the game to stop outranging or you need to work with whatever else you have left.


That being said, I am super unhappy with the way weapons work in DWU and I really hope for either more well thought out weapon types or more modability for DW2.

ORIGINAL: Cepheiden


At some point I tried to make more weapon types for all ranges such as beam laser / pulse laser, blaster / rail gun etc.
That all failed when I implemented them and noticed things don't work - many days of planning and calculating down the drain.

What do you mean they didn't work? Did the bases not fire your weapons or did they always miss at the longer rnages?

ORIGINAL: Cepheiden

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

Ice, I noticed in a recent game that the AI puts short range weapons, like beams, on space stations. The bases can then get out ranged by enemy missiles / fighters.

It's quite late, but I can give you an exact answer to that question.

I have been working on a mod myself, trying to fix exactly those things you noticed.
However the game has a couple of hardcoded elements, such as the base accuracy of weapon types or how you can't assign priorities to used weapons. The base accuracy (not the accuracy bonus you see ingame) makes using other weapon types for longer ranges impossible. At some point I tried to make more weapon types for all ranges such as beam laser / pulse laser, blaster / rail gun etc.
That all failed when I implemented them and noticed things don't work - many days of planning and calculating down the drain.

So ultimately as a modder you can either remove half of the weapons in the game to stop outranging or you need to work with whatever else you have left.


That being said, I am super unhappy with the way weapons work in DWU and I really hope for either more well thought out weapon types or more modability for DW2.

The fix for this is to edit ship designs, and research paths.

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

Ice, I noticed in a recent game that the AI puts short range weapons, like beams, on space stations. The bases can then get out ranged by enemy missiles / fighters.

I've read through the weapons balancing thread in the original post and it doesn't appear to have a discussion on appropriate space base weapon designs.

Why did you decide to prioritise short range weapons at the expense of long range weapons (fighters / missiles) for bases?

For example, the gizurean smallspaceport.txt design template has 10 beam weapons specified (WeaponBeam), presumably as the gizurean racial pref is for beams. There are no ranged weapons specified (WeaponMissile, WeaponTorpedo, Fighterbay). The spaceport, which cannot move, can then be outranged.

I understand that the research orders for a race with beam weapon priority (such as gizurean) will prioritise beam research. They are therefore likely to have significantly better beam weapons than missiles. That doesn't help much when the enemy can sit outside the higher tech beam range and the space port can do nothing about it because it can't move.

Is there any way to prioritise ranged weapons in the base templates, even for a short range weapon race, and have them substitute shorter range weapons only if they are significantly higher tech level than the longer range weapons?

Yeah agree here the other problem is that all stations are set to fire only point blank range...

Sorry my mistake most stations are set to evade as per the mod notes only some set to point blank. Still can't figure it out though. I just attacked a pirate space port with torpedoes from afar and not one weapon was fired at my ship. And I am pretty sure the spaceport has torpedoes. I just checked the Gizurean Spaceport you mentioned above and it has torpedoes as well. Something is wrong if they are not firing? [&:]

I've just come back to DW:U after a couple years waiting for DW:U2

I remembered IceMania's brilliant mod and have started playing various different races, then wanted to tweak one thing in the tech tree for the Banoserit...
- Stealth requires "Enhanced Scanners"
- Banoserit have "Far Sight Discovery" instead
- Can Stealth be made to require [ "Ship Scanning" && "Advanced Sensors" && ("Far Sight Discovery" || "Enhanced Scanners") ] ?

I tried to copy what Advanced Colonization does, but that didn't really work. It let me research Stealth even without "Far Sight Discovery" or "Enhanced Scanners".

Then I also noticed, "Advance Colonization" can actually be research with Just "Enhanced Storage", you don't actually need any of the other colonization techs first.

Is this behaviour known/intended/expected? Is it simply not possible to make a tech dependent on "X and Y and (A or B)"?

Either way, thanks for this mod!!!

ORIGINAL: MatBailie

I've just come back to DW:U after a couple years waiting for DW:U2

I remembered IceMania's brilliant mod and have started playing various different races, then wanted to tweak one thing in the tech tree for the Banoserit...
- Stealth requires "Enhanced Scanners"
- Banoserit have "Far Sight Discovery" instead
- Can Stealth be made to require [ "Ship Scanning" && "Advanced Sensors" && ("Far Sight Discovery" || "Enhanced Scanners") ] ?

I tried to copy what Advanced Colonization does, but that didn't really work. It let me research Stealth even without "Far Sight Discovery" or "Enhanced Scanners".

Then I also noticed, "Advance Colonization" can actually be research with Just "Enhanced Storage", you don't actually need any of the other colonization techs first.

Is this behaviour known/intended/expected? Is it simply not possible to make a tech dependent on "X and Y and (A or B)"?

Either way, thanks for this mod!!!

If the worse comes to the worse... you can do it yourself.
1)Go into the mod folder.
2)Make a back up of the research.txt (in case you mess up).
3)Find each of the techs you will be dealing with and take down their ID numbers (first number just before the tech name you just searched for). In this case: Enhanced Scanners & Far Sight Discovery (just ctrl + f and type in the names of the techs, I use notepad+ for editing text files). You will also notice that there is a lot of info on how to mod at the top of this file.
4) Find: Stealth (as point 3)
5) scroll to the: Parents section
6) you will see #, Y, #, Y or some such (the numbers there will be referring to the Techs needed to get access to this technology - one of them will be Enhanced Scanner)
7) change the Y (after the Enhanced Scanner number) to an N (if it is a Y, if not leave it as N)
8) Then add the: Far Sight Discovery number and N.

It will look something like this:
Parents; #(ship scanning), Y,#(advanced sensors),Y, #(enhanced scanner), N, #(far sight discovery),N

But without the brackets and the bits in the brackets (so more like this):
Parents; #, Y ,#, Y, #, N, #, N

I cant provide the numbers, or the order of the numbers (which is unimportant anyway) because I am at work with no game access. You should be able to figure it out though, I have faith in you! [:)]

I have modded this mod:
1) Made special techs up to the maximum tech level of normal tech (Zenox Shield go to TL 7, Dhayut Hyperdrives go to TL 7 etc). Also added to max Rail Gun TL (made it 7).
2) Locked races out of researching other research similar to their specials. Had to do a bit of tinkering to get it to work, due to inter tech dependencies).
3) Changed the Race tech research order to add these items and also added the tech needed to have them all research fighter bays (including interceptors and torpedoes)
4) changed ship stations (lowered the number of weapons they had, and used roughly the equivalent space to add fighter bays) and set them all to "Evade".

Which leads me to a question of my own:
I am debating changing Medium/Large Space Ports and Capital Ships. I was thinking of removing Superweapons and adding more guns and fighter bays instead.
My reasoning being that they will be nerfed due to the fact that the superweapon is a long way down the research tree (also the weight of the best superweapon, available only to Boskara and Shakturi, is 640... thats is a big increase).
Something like this +2 fighter bays to all, +4-16 weapons (based on weapon type, 16 beams, 8 torpedos/missiles/phasers, 4 gravity beam, and 5 - 8 rail guns... not sure how much of them to add since they end up being size 18).
Would this nerf them too much end game?
Basically what are peoples feedback on this idea?

Lastly!
Beam weapons are about half the weight of phasers/torpedoes etc... but they require more energy... so should they be double the number of the other weapons (as things stand in the design file) or should they be maybe 1.5x - 1.75x more (to take into account reactore space)?

Unfortunately, that's what I meant by "I tried to copy what Advanced Colonization does"; I've already tired what you said...

It appears that the -intention- of "Advanced Colonization" is to require "Enhanced Storage" plus any one of the "Basic Colonization" techs. In fact, however, you can skip all of the "Basic Colonization Techs" all together.

I discovered this by manually editing the research.txt file, copying the format of the "Advanced Colonization" parents, but not getting the results I wanted. So I tested that what I was copying does what I wanted; it doesn't.

Which is why I asked "Is this behaviour known/intended/expected?"; because surely you should Need at least One of the "Basic Colonization" techs before researching "Advanced Colonization"?

It should only do that if all the #'s have N after them. If one of them is #, Y then the #, Y must be researched and then any of the #, N.
If they are all #, N then any of the parent techs are needed (you only need to research one to be given acces to the tech).
If they are all #, Y then you need to research everything in the Parent; line.
If there are #, Y and #, N then all the Y ones need to be researched and any one N one.

Looking at it it does seem odd that you could research Advanced Colonization without having researched Colonization at the very least!

Leaving that aside though, I would think to do what you want you'd have to remove Enhanced Scanners as a parent of Stealth, then make an intermediary tech with Far Sight Discovery and Enhanced Scanners as non-obligatory parents. Then just make said intermediary tech an obligatory parent of Stealth. That does mean either having a project that has a parent on the same tech level (which looks a bit weird), or increasing the tech level for each tech after Stealth to make room. That would of course change research costs for Stealth and the 7 following techs you'd have to shift over, but you could correct for that with the Base Cost Multiplier.

ORIGINAL: Kothyxaan

It should only do that if all the #'s have N after them. If one of them is #, Y then the #, Y must be researched and then any of the #, N.
If they are all #, N then any of the parent techs are needed (you only need to research one to be given acces to the tech).
If they are all #, Y then you need to research everything in the Parent; line.
If there are #, Y and #, N then all the Y ones need to be researched and any one N one.

I suggest you test it yourself then; a completely fresh and un-doctored install of the mod, start a game and start queuing up research (you don't need to do the research, just queue it up). You will find that you can get Advanced Colonization without any of the preceding Colonization Techs (you just need Enhanced Storage). Then look at the research.txt file; all of the Basic Colonization techs are optional parents, and Enhanced Storage is a mandatory parent.

That's what I'm asking about...

Is this a bug, a feature, a known issue, etc?