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OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 7:42 pm Lothos,
German DEC 645 Deploy Dedicated AT Units never fired early May 1942 (May 8, 1942) I rolled through the 3 May turns and seen nothing. Taxman said he got his 3 Soviet ATs by DEC. This is not real swell.
Also, never got the Italian DEC 701 Italian Expeditionary Force (for USSR) that comes in Aug 1941. Could of used that Hq and 2 corps, especially the Hq.

Anyways, is this by design or a bug? Not having those 3 extra AT units is unfortunate either way.

Those decisions do not exist in TRP. They were removed a very long time ago.

Just want to put this out their

When playing an MP game the camera will always zoom in to where your opponent moved his first unit.

If your first unit was a naval unit then they know where your ships are.

I was not aware of this bug and IMO using it to your advantage is a form of cheating.

I highly recommend to anyone who plays MP to make sure your opponent is aware of this bug and NOT used it against them. It completely destroys the spirit of the game.

Lothos wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:13 pm Just want to put this out their

When playing an MP game the camera will always zoom in to where your opponent moved his first unit.

If your first unit was a naval unit then they know where your ships are.

I was not aware of this bug and IMO using it to your advantage is a form of cheating.

I highly recommend to anyone who plays MP to make sure your opponent is aware of this bug and NOT used it against them. It completely destroys the spirit of the game.

Anyone that's played even played a bit of Multiplayer knows about this. It's been a feature of the SC games as long as I know.

It doesn't reveal much except activity of some sort.
No one I know who plays MP considers it cheating.
In a way, abstractly it's another form of intelligence gathering. It's the type of information gathered by traveling neutral merchantmen, radio traffic bouncing off the ionosphere, garbage flotsam at sea, loose papers about a convoy in a waste paper basket...etc. Who knows. That form of intelligence gathering is called the 'Weird Radio' in some circles. Its not precise at all.

Not sure what else one could do...divert your eyes from the screen?

Thanks for clarifying the former post about the absent DECs.
I think they should of been kept but that fine. Now I know.

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:18 am

Lothos wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:13 pm Just want to put this out their

When playing an MP game the camera will always zoom in to where your opponent moved his first unit.

If your first unit was a naval unit then they know where your ships are.

I was not aware of this bug and IMO using it to your advantage is a form of cheating.

I highly recommend to anyone who plays MP to make sure your opponent is aware of this bug and NOT used it against them. It completely destroys the spirit of the game.

Anyone that's played even played a bit of Multiplayer knows about this. It's been a feature of the SC games as long as I know.

It doesn't reveal much except activity of some sort.
No one I know who plays MP considers it cheating.
In a way, abstractly it's another form of intelligence gathering. It's the type of information gathered by traveling neutral merchantmen, radio traffic bouncing off the ionosphere, garbage flotsam at sea, loose papers about a convoy in a waste paper basket...etc. Who knows. That form of intelligence gathering is called the 'Weird Radio' in some circles. Its not precise at all.

Not sure what else one could do...divert your eyes from the screen?

Thanks for clarifying the former post about the absent DECs.
I think they should of been kept but that fine. Now I know.

Going to disagree with you on this. It's not a form of intelligence, it's a bug that if your opponent either forgets or is not aware of can have huge consequences such as the entire German sub fleet being destroyed by the end of October 1939 and they are no where near convoy areas.

The screen should always start on the center of the map and not where your opponent moved their first unit.

Well take it up with Bill and Hubert. This deal has come up before. So until it's fixed, a lot of us rationalize it with as another kind of intelligence gathering.
It's been a thing for years and years.

Thing is... I'm playing Axis, and half the time the map hovers in around Poznan, Poland. Well I make jokes about that. What the hell is in Poznan?

Also, this lingering at sea is haphazard. Sometimes it will linger on a solo vessel. Other times a U-Boat pack.
Sometimes the desert where there is movement shuffling.

You never know.

Again, it's not precise. It can lure someone into a false idea of what's actually happening.
So again, like I said, a lot of us of learned to live with it and adjusted accordingly as abstract intell.

Anyways strange stuff like this happens in the real world.
It's an indicator of something afoot. Is it actionable intell is another question entirely.

Maybe this behavior can get fixed. It has been discussed before here on the forums somewhere. If it can be fixed that would be great. No more weird radio news.

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 6:13 am Well take it up with Bill and Hubert. This deal has come up before. So until it's fixed, a lot of us rationalize it with as another kind of intelligence gathering.
It's been a thing for years and years.

Thing is... I'm playing Axis, and half the time the map hovers in around Poznan, Poland. Well I make jokes about that. What the hell is in Poznan?

Also, this lingering at sea is haphazard. Sometimes it will linger on a solo vessel. Other times a U-Boat pack.
Sometimes the desert where there is movement shuffling.

You never know.

Again, it's not precise. It can lure someone into a false idea of what's actually happening.
So again, like I said, a lot of us of learned to live with it and adjusted accordingly as abstract intell.

Anyways strange stuff like this happens in the real world.
It's an indicator of something afoot. Is it actionable intell is another question entirely.

Maybe this behavior can get fixed. It has been discussed before here on the forums somewhere. If it can be fixed that would be great. No more weird radio news.

Talking to BillRunacre about it and gave him the details. So far I believe he agrees with me. I gave him the details of what happened.

Maybe this is a good thing as a seasoned MP player like yourself you became use to these kinds of things and just kept chuging with it. With a fresh set of eyes (like mine) what you think of as normal may not actually be normal. In all honestly had my opponent not sent me a private message telling me about the issue I would have never know about it (but suspected) and we would have kept playing the game with him destroying the German and Italian fleet because I always like moving my ships first.

It seems the only way around this bug is to go to some random unit (as the Axis) in the middle of the map and move it one hex and then you no longer have to worry about the bug. (I assume thats how it works right?)

FYI: I understand the map will move if a unit or ship come into temporary visual range. In the case of the game I was playing the ships were never in temporary range.

Once you know about it (and most anyone who has played any MP does), it's not hard to pick a completely unimportant unit/area or one under enemy observation to start with moving. Shuffle an Anti-partisan GAR around a P hex or something.

I been working out a way to help prevent the UK from camping the Norway convoy line right at the start of the game with the following changes

Norway
- Change Convoy route from Oslo to Germany (instead of Narvik)
- Norway Mobilization goes up if Allied ships in the area
- Norway Mobilization goes to high then Allies will not get the mining event
- (Event) Mining Norway Coast Event will limit supplies from Sweden and Norway to Germany in the winter
--- If no Mining Event then Germany will get 100% supplies

So what this means is if the Allies camp the Norway line and Norways Mobilization gets over a certain amount then the mining event will not fire which then means Germany (for the rest of the game) will get 100% of Swedens and Norways supplies with no restrictions in the winter.

If the Allies do not camp it then they will get the Mining event which will effect Germanys income for the rest of the game from both Norway and Sweden.

Thoughts?

What do the Allies get in return for this nerf?

Taxman66 wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:55 pm What do the Allies get in return for this nerf?

It is trying to solve an exploit that really should not happen. The Allies have to make a decision should the mine the coast or not. If they mine it that Germany will get less resources from Norway and will only be able to get the Swedish resources in non winter turns.

If they do not mine the coast then Germany will get all of Norways resources and will be able to get all of the Swedish resources all year round.

It is a nerf to solve an situation that really should not happen. It gives at least the allies a choice, short term gain for long term loss or long term gain for short term loss.

To me it sounds like giving Germany an extra 500 MPP or so in the early game. That's possibly large enough to influence the balance.

Some other thoughts:
1a) AA should not be so strong defensively that they make the best front line (particularly when in an urban hex) unit against ground troops.

1b) Maybe to help discourage the use of AA tactically you could also reduce their AP (movement allowance)?

2) Reducing Strat bombers to a single attack (current house rule that you stated you are considering), is needed. It however has the unintended consequence of encouraging the use of AA on a strictly tactical level. Perhaps if Strat bombers are limited to a single attack their cost should be reduced somewhat.

3a) Carriers, particularly CVLs, should have some improvement vs. subs with Tech. I suggest increasing the attack level vs. subs by .5 per level. So a single 1 pt. increase at levels 2 and 4. Note in WiE I doubt the allies will go that high in naval weapons as it is too damn costly to upgrade the ships and is not needed.

3b) I also suspect subs will dive too easily at higher techs vs. planes.

3c) If a sub is in submerged mode getting huge stealth bonus (i.e. can't be passively seen by planes), and defense bonus (where DDs with ASW 1 vs. Sub 1 see nothing but 1:1 combat expectations), I don't see why they should get to ambush. Submerged mode = avoiding contact. This may be a game engine issue.

4) Still not completely happy with UK money situation after Pearl Harbor. Paying the 100 MPP tax for the Pacific War actually costs more than what they gain by Canada getting up to full potential. Yes the USA sends more, but that just mostly covers the MPP the UK sends to Russia. I'm not saying there shouldn't be tax, just seems a bit harsh and counter intuitive.

5) I still think Fall/Spring weather in Russia is too good too often.

6) I think Diplomacy needs some thinking. If the Allies wanted they have a good chance to completely stuff Finland and never let them into war if Russia doesn't do the Winter War. If Russia does do the Winter War and the allies succeed at intervention then that will all but guarantee that Finland never enters.

7) Why no USSR mobilization gear up for Germany stuffing eastern front pre Barbarossa. If to help the AI, can't that be set for AI only games, like Vanilla does?

Well with version 1.3 of this mod, Malta was made much stronger as requested. Thanks Lothos btw.
So I as Axis decide to try the daunting task of taking the island fortress from Great Britain.
The siege starts now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyCb1iaA4sI&t=70s

Taxman66 wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:35 pm To me it sounds like giving Germany an extra 500 MPP or so in the early game. That's possibly large enough to influence the balance.

Some other thoughts:
1a) AA should not be so strong defensively that they make the best front line (particularly when in an urban hex) unit against ground troops.

1b) Maybe to help discourage the use of AA tactically you could also reduce their AP (movement allowance)?

2) Reducing Strat bombers to a single attack (current house rule that you stated you are considering), is needed. It however has the unintended consequence of encouraging the use of AA on a strictly tactical level. Perhaps if Strat bombers are limited to a single attack their cost should be reduced somewhat.

3a) Carriers, particularly CVLs, should have some improvement vs. subs with Tech. I suggest increasing the attack level vs. subs by .5 per level. So a single 1 pt. increase at levels 2 and 4. Note in WiE I doubt the allies will go that high in naval weapons as it is too damn costly to upgrade the ships and is not needed.

3b) I also suspect subs will dive too easily at higher techs vs. planes.

3c) If a sub is in submerged mode getting huge stealth bonus (i.e. can't be passively seen by planes), and defense bonus (where DDs with ASW 1 vs. Sub 1 see nothing but 1:1 combat expectations), I don't see why they should get to ambush. Submerged mode = avoiding contact. This may be a game engine issue.

4) Still not completely happy with UK money situation after Pearl Harbor. Paying the 100 MPP tax for the Pacific War actually costs more than what they gain by Canada getting up to full potential. Yes the USA sends more, but that just mostly covers the MPP the UK sends to Russia. I'm not saying there shouldn't be tax, just seems a bit harsh and counter intuitive.

5) I still think Fall/Spring weather in Russia is too good too often.

6) I think Diplomacy needs some thinking. If the Allies wanted they have a good chance to completely stuff Finland and never let them into war if Russia doesn't do the Winter War. If Russia does do the Winter War and the allies succeed at intervention then that will all but guarantee that Finland never enters.

7) Why no USSR mobilization gear up for Germany stuffing eastern front pre Barbarossa. If to help the AI, can't that be set for AI only games, like Vanilla does?

@Taxxman, in the MP game that I just partially played. My opponent did cheat (but he did not realize it was cheating). Before that he was taking out subs way to easily and even in my Allied games against the AI it was pretty easy (once you found them) to slaughter them. If anything Subs need more help.

As for the dive percentage etc... you may be on to something. Maybe the answer is to flat line it. ASW tech only increases sub attack and sub defense but Dive Percentage stays a constant. I like this so the numbers are not squed and it would it would solve the plane problem needing ASW tech.

For AA, remember Rommel and the 88mm guns in North Africa! They were devastating to Armor and the flak in the game is no different. If you attack them head on you do so at your own peril. Since they have no ability to attack land units you should surround them and take them out that way if need be or use infantry.

The UK spent allot of resources in India and Australia to defend them. As for weather in Russia

Weather Zone 5 which is the main one near Moscow has the following (look at screenshots). It has a super high chance of mud

a) Not all AA was 88s.

b) AA is also tough against Infantry, having AA on the front line because it is the best defensive unit seems stupid/ridiculous.

c) Subs in submerged mode are very tough to hurt. I just sent 6 Carriers (5 CVL & 1 CV) and a few DDs against a submerged IT sub and managed only 4 damage to it. This was after the submerged sub ambushed a CL (with ASW 1 and normal moving not naval cruising) for 4 damage and non back (due to Damage Evasion). Every DD (ASW 1) vs. Submerged sub (Sub 1) I encounter (including mid/low supply subs at less than full strength) always generate 1:1 combat predictions.

d) I'm no expert on 1940 Russian weather, but I don't think I would call 40% chance of clear/60% chance of mud 'super high chance of mud'.

e) I'm not discounting resources sent to India/Australia, it just feels very counter intuitive to have the UK money cut after the USA joins the war, and Canada ramps up.

Any thoughts on issue/comments #2, #6 & #7 above?

A thought for consideration:

Since the main reason for buffing the AA was a counter to denying AA upgrades to resources, why not consider restoring/nerfing the AA and automatically upgrading resources with AA tech? Or if that is not possible, reduce the cost of AA resource upgrades to something very small or even 0?

Taxman66 wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:51 pm A thought for consideration:

Since the main reason for buffing the AA was a counter to denying AA upgrades to resources, why not consider restoring/nerfing the AA and automatically upgrading resources with AA tech? Or if that is not possible, reduce the cost of AA resource upgrades to something very small or even 0?

2 - Already done for next patch (current change log list below)

6 - The Axis can counter any Allied Diplomacy but Russia not doing the Winter War. Maybe the answer is if they do not do it then they loose Mobilization and if they do it then they get some mobilization.

7 - It is their but goes up more slowly. I HATED the old setup as it made no sense. Literally one month after Germany had more than 18 units on the Russian border then Russia would be in the war. It is now a slow progression and to help the Russians they get a bunch of units and they have the cheapest infantry in the game. It is not suppose to be easy to stop the Germans.

As for weather it is 60% chance till October 21st and then after that it is 70% chance of mud.

Notes for coming release

########################
# TRP 1.4 Europe
########################

- (New) Strategic Bombers no longer get a second attack
- (New) ZoC Penalty for ships increased from 1 to 10 (but requires 2 ore more Surface Combat Ships)
- (New) ZoC Penalty for subs increased from 1 to 10 (you only need 1 sub to apply the penalty)
- (New) Partisans no longer exert a ZoC
- (New) French Navy will no longer become part of the UK if Vichy is not formed. Instead a new Navy will appear for Free France
- (New) Malta AA guns will come upgraded if you choose to improve them
- (New) France will fully cooperate with the UK and USA again
- (New) Major Fortress (Malta) Spotting Land increased to 3 and Spotting Sea Increased to 7
- (New) Mech Divisions Spotting Land increased to 2
- (New) Lowered Naval Damage chance in bad weather
- (New) Sub Sea view range increased from 1 to 2 (Note: this only works the first time you stop in movement, after that it is 1)
- (New) Sub retreat percentage increased
- (New) Subs retreat range increased from 4 to 15 (It only retreats the distance needed so no enemy units are next to them)
- (New) Subs Base Dive Percentage Chance increased from 25 to 40
- (New) ASW Tech/Sub Tech no longer raise Dive Percentage nor ASW Percentage subs will always have a 40% chance to dive.
- (New) Capital Ships had their starting sub attack changed from 1 to 0
- (New) Norway Convoys to Germany redesigned with a Mining Decision that the Allies can choose
--- Allies say yes then in March 1940 the Norwegian coast will be mined
----- 40% chance the Norwegians will stop the mining if they are upset about Raiding their coast
----- This will force the Convoy route to come out of Oslo at a greatly reduced rate
----- Swedish Convoys will be reduced during non-summer months and closed during the winter
--- Allies say no to mining (or upset the Norwegian government and raiding their coast)
----- Convoy routes will shift to Oslo but will send more to Germany
----- Swedish Convoys will continue to flow at 100% all year

- (Map) Desert Terrain is no longer passable (AI Reasons), adjusted map
- (Map) Sevastopol (hex 212,96) added to NM Objective
- (Map) Saudi Arabia trade information more descriptive and added a 100% resource if mobilization is 100%
- (Map) Kiel Canal reworked so it is blocked on both ends
- (Map) Italy can use the Suez Canal while neutral
--- Recommend MP game house rule that only transports can go through

- (OOB) France, lowered Max Fighters from 4 to 3
- (OOB) France, lowered Max Tactical Bombers from 3 to 2
- (OOB) Yugoslavia, moved garrison from 184,100 to 182,99

- (Bug) French Colonies will now form if Axis do not form Vichy and will get an army in North Africa
- (Bug) Typo fixed in Decision for cruiser Blücher was spelled wrong Bulcher
- (Bug) Typo fixed in Popup giving advice to Germany to strike at Egypt, changed "with the war" to "win the war"
- (Bug) Command and Control Tech will give 1 full AP to Major Power HQs per level

- (AI) Axis added hex 214,60 (Vyshniy Volochyk) to their ignore list
- (AI) Axis, removed from ignore list hexes 212,96 and 214,94 (Crimea area)
- (AI) Finland, made some adjustments to how it reacts near Petsamo
- (AI) Finland, made some adjustments on how it attacks near Leningrad
- (AI) France, has a 70% chance of saying yes to decision 203 to get the Engineers
- (AI) France, has a fortification AI
- (AI) France, should build more fighters
- (AI) USSR, made some adjustments on how it defends nears Leningrad
- (AI) USSR, changed its fortification locations and order
- (AI) USSR, will no longer auto DOW Italy if Germany is at war with USSR
- (AI) Italy, Peacetime Fleet, movements adjusted so they start in a better defensive position
- (AI) Italy, will no longer auto DOW USSR if Germany is at war with USSR
- (AI) Italy, may invade Malta if left undefended
- (AI) Germany, Improved Garrisoning of Russian Territory
- (AI) Germany, 1942 will focus offensive against Russia better 40% chance against Moscow, 60% chance against Stalingrad
- (AI) Germany, may invade Malta if left undefended
- (AI) Germany, Sea Lion has a chance after Fall of France
--- NOTE: If Human player invades the UK (Italy invading the UK) German AI will reinforce and transport troops
--- NOTE: After UK Falls Germany will transport some troops back to main Europe

Hey!

I've been trying to play your mod and i have encountered a very big problem. I can't make Poland surrender. I've restarted 2 times, i've deleted all files and reinstalled the game and checked the integrity of the game cache etc etc etc.

Here is a SS from my latest (3rd) atempt.



I don't know what to do next. Sure i could conquer all of poland and see what is what but i don't think this is how it is supposed to be done. Could you take a look and tell me what i am doing wrong? Thank you!

Suggestion for Subs:

Give GE more of them and lower MPP raiding per unit.

In return, they should stay vulnerable when surrounded.
More subs would also give them more wiggle room, because Allies can not surround all of them.

But it is NO fun, to have 10+ ships trying to get a hit on one of them for 3 turns in a row.
And also not very Total Realism

Taxman66 wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:35 pm 6) I think Diplomacy needs some thinking. If the Allies wanted they have a good chance to completely stuff Finland and never let them into war if Russia doesn't do the Winter War. If Russia does do the Winter War and the allies succeed at intervention then that will all but guarantee that Finland never enters.

Hmm, I think I see your point

Their seems to be a chain of events that will damage the Russians (just like the Germans in the winter).

HOWEVER

I see that the chain even exists if the Winter War never happens.

Perhaps the best way to fix this is to remove that portion of the Chain so if the USSR does not do the Winter War then they will not get the option to Winterize their units and therefore will take severe damage (just like the Germans) in the winter.

So they may keep the Finds out of it but they will get nailed.

EDITED: Proposed Changes

- (New) USSR, Winter War Decisions changes. If no Winter War then the USSR cannot winterize their forces.
- (New) USSR, If they DO NOT winterize their units the damage will be just as bad to the USSR as it is to the Germans

Not sure how I would feel about that.
You would be making it very tempting to for some gamey play with the Russians possibly not placing reinforcements (or at the very least not putting down Tanks and other expensive units), until after it fires against them.

Additionally the point of DEs is to make tempting options, not provide 'No Brainer'/obvious forced ones.

---
BTW, I think you are way over correcting with 1.4 sub changes.
Just taking away Heavy Cruiser and bigger ships ability to attack subs goes a very long way to correcting things (I think CLs should be able to attack subs... and I think the US should exchange 2 or 3 of those starting CLs for DDs). By additionally increasing their Dive Chance to 40% and increasing the retreat chance is going to make them near impossible to kill even later in the war (mid/late summer+) when they started becoming both a non-factor and were getting whacked with massive losses.