Wanted: Better tactical AI
Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:59 pm
Hi guys,
I've been lurking around in here since I bought PC-OWS a couple of weeeks ago, and I have to tell you this:
Dudes, you're not getting the point!
Everybody talks about waypoints and using cover to move units, and that is irrelevant. What this game needs is a better tactical AI! Even the poll Erik have been running doesn't mention this possibillity, and it disturbs me quite a bit.
Let me explain: I, too, have migrated from CM, and I stopped playing CM because I more and more disliked the unrealistic micromanaging style that seems to be giving the best results in battles. But while playing CM I more and more asked myself: Is this _really_ the way a colonel acts when commanding his troops? Does he _really_ have to tell that tank to fire at the hostile tank in stead of hostile infantry? Does he _really_ have to decide exactly what route his unit takes to get to their destination? More and more I found myself saying "No way, boy, you're just shuffling chess pawns. This is not reality". I ended up finding that too much control was simply tedious, too much detail was simply unrealistic.
And being realistic, _that_ is what I want of a tactical wargame. And fun, of cause...
Along comes PC-OWS with an entirely new angle. Gone are the excessively detailed ballistics and stuff, in are a tested system. Gone are the "Only we know, and we are done when when we are ready" approach, in is a more "workshop - like" approach where the game is evolving even after it has gone gold. I really think it is a good idea to start with the basics and then gain consensus on how to evolve. I really do. It bring memories of Steel Panthers, doesn't it? And if it comes to choosing between tedious realism and gaming fun, Erik R told us they would choose the fun. That had to be my kind of game - keeping track of every bullet on the entire eastern front does _not_ bring a more realistic approach than "Third Reich", IMHO. And certainly not more fun. Even Panzer General gave somewhat realistic results.
I was kind of excited when I started my first game in the german campaign. The first battle I really messed things up, but managed to get a marginal victory. Not too bad. In the second I thought I had learned my lessons and started planning the battle like a real colonel. But when I must have been too sloppy in executing or clicked at the wrong spot, beacuse somehow my VETERAN reconnessance armored car ended up between two chunks of covering trees in the beginnng of an order phase. And it sat there for almost thirty seconds while the russkies I _knew_ had to be there (there was an objective nearby) fired two shots at the car barely missing it. During the reaction phase I frantically clicked "withdraw" just about anywhere on the map to get the damn car moving again. Backwards, forwards, whatever.. DO something. But of cause the armored car was hit in the beginning of the reaction phase by the third shot from the AP cannon. The fourth shot hit a truck carrying some panzergrenadiers which, by some strange chance involving an equally sloppy clicking from my side, ended up right next to the destroyed recon car... I just slammed alt- tab and tried for some minutes to calm down by playing Napoleon before returning to the game again. Can _anyone_ think of _anything_ this stupid? I remember attending a class about brain intellect, where the absolute basis package was described as that of a cockroach: When anything extraordinary happen, RUN, run like hell. Where doesn't matter, just run. And these veteran recon troops just sat still for thirty seconds right in the middle of an easily foreseen threat.
Well, I kind of pulled myself together and continued the game, the car engine could have been broken after all. And I was getting more the hang of it this time, slaughtering infantry and zooming across the map with my armored cars as recon troops. At some time I heard the "actung feintliches panzer" sound and realised that one of the cars had driven right by some T34's hiding in some valley in the middle of an otherwise flat area. One of the T34 had noticed this and was firing shot after shot into the edge of the valley, not able to get a clear shot. My car just sat there with the rear side to the T34 untill I moved it some metres forward so the tank couldn't see it. The rest of my forces was in disarray, as I still had plenty to infantry to kill elsewhere, but by now I was getting in a kind of RTS mode and just ignored the mighty threat until I was done with the infantry killing and then redirected all my tanks in a C - shape around the spot where the tanks had been seen. The "?" was gone by now but I wasn't easy to fool, and when _all_ my tanks was ready, I ordered them all forward! It went like a breeze, even as the T34´s wasn't easy to kill and the edge of the valley was attracting a lot of fire... I finally inched one of my "edge- pounders" a few inched forward so it could hit the last tank. But whatta ya know, that kind of things DO happen a lot in RTS games... Here again, can you think of a commander of four T34 tanks NOT doing SOMETHING when hearing the rumble of 12 tanks positioning themselves around his sweet little valley? Don't you think he would crawl up from his tank to the edge of the valley to take a peek? Would he just sit there wishing they would go away, please?
Continuing with my gaming experience, I then realised that I had to get the last red flag quickly, summoned ALL my units and told them to race for the flag at super- max speed, and just as I was approaching the flag with my units while ignoring an AP gun that got a couple of my armored cars, BANG! The battle stopped! Right there floating in mid air, me using every gamey tactics in the RTS book, just before I reached the gaming goal. There seemed to be a time limit I missed in the briefing (and I re-read it later -there was no limit mentioned). And tell me: How fun exactly is a limit on battle time?
Aaarh! I think I kind of got around the full circle with this one, memorable game. And it tells me that this game is neither bird nor fish. I think you designers should decide what you want with this game. Not that it doesn't have potential - a lot of the stuff in the game is OK. But if you keep adding details, you'll end up with a clone of CM. And belive me when I say that that base is covered... I'd rather that you use some of the computer cycles saved by using miniature rules in stead of ballistic equations for some BETTER tactical AI. That could really put you ahead and make this game a sleeper hit. If your unit behave somewhat more intelligently than CM, that would make a splash.
And in general I think you got the basics right, but need to improve. You should go for a better Tactical AI to get a better immersion of the gamer in the game. And of cause Erik's list is ALWAYS good. Here are my list of what could be improvements:
- A way to set up battle plans from the start that could last several turns but aborted if the player saw the plan fading. Long -term goals is all- important. "Move around this lump of trees and arrive at this point at 1300 hours. Expect hostile s from this area". Hint: Just like a colonel would say to his thinking subordinates.
- SOP for units which they are supposed to follow when engaging. And when idle or without orders.
- Role playing "personality" of the individual units - some are braver and better than others. Maybe pictures of the platoon commanders. Whatever.
- A method to link turns up to a film, like it was done in Myth. That way a battle can be shared with others.
- "Threat arcs" and "cover arcs" determining where to aim the big guns at and where to run to if nescessary. This needs to have a "memory" so that a unit doesn't forget where that big KV-1 was hiding.
- Some effect of the chain of command. Some ideas: Wouldn't it be cool if enemy units was visible and "?" according to what unit was selected, and according to that unit's field of view? Maybe the commander could reveal found positions of enemy units to other friendlies? What if the commander only could make xx number of orders each turn? What if _no_ orders could be given to units if the commander's tank was taken out? I think there are lots of posibillities to make the chain of command visible. As it is now the chain is non- existing.
So here is to an evolving engine, hoping you will take the right direction. But damn me if I ever play the second battle in the german campaign again!
Best of luck,
Henius
I've been lurking around in here since I bought PC-OWS a couple of weeeks ago, and I have to tell you this:
Dudes, you're not getting the point!
Everybody talks about waypoints and using cover to move units, and that is irrelevant. What this game needs is a better tactical AI! Even the poll Erik have been running doesn't mention this possibillity, and it disturbs me quite a bit.
Let me explain: I, too, have migrated from CM, and I stopped playing CM because I more and more disliked the unrealistic micromanaging style that seems to be giving the best results in battles. But while playing CM I more and more asked myself: Is this _really_ the way a colonel acts when commanding his troops? Does he _really_ have to tell that tank to fire at the hostile tank in stead of hostile infantry? Does he _really_ have to decide exactly what route his unit takes to get to their destination? More and more I found myself saying "No way, boy, you're just shuffling chess pawns. This is not reality". I ended up finding that too much control was simply tedious, too much detail was simply unrealistic.
And being realistic, _that_ is what I want of a tactical wargame. And fun, of cause...
Along comes PC-OWS with an entirely new angle. Gone are the excessively detailed ballistics and stuff, in are a tested system. Gone are the "Only we know, and we are done when when we are ready" approach, in is a more "workshop - like" approach where the game is evolving even after it has gone gold. I really think it is a good idea to start with the basics and then gain consensus on how to evolve. I really do. It bring memories of Steel Panthers, doesn't it? And if it comes to choosing between tedious realism and gaming fun, Erik R told us they would choose the fun. That had to be my kind of game - keeping track of every bullet on the entire eastern front does _not_ bring a more realistic approach than "Third Reich", IMHO. And certainly not more fun. Even Panzer General gave somewhat realistic results.
I was kind of excited when I started my first game in the german campaign. The first battle I really messed things up, but managed to get a marginal victory. Not too bad. In the second I thought I had learned my lessons and started planning the battle like a real colonel. But when I must have been too sloppy in executing or clicked at the wrong spot, beacuse somehow my VETERAN reconnessance armored car ended up between two chunks of covering trees in the beginnng of an order phase. And it sat there for almost thirty seconds while the russkies I _knew_ had to be there (there was an objective nearby) fired two shots at the car barely missing it. During the reaction phase I frantically clicked "withdraw" just about anywhere on the map to get the damn car moving again. Backwards, forwards, whatever.. DO something. But of cause the armored car was hit in the beginning of the reaction phase by the third shot from the AP cannon. The fourth shot hit a truck carrying some panzergrenadiers which, by some strange chance involving an equally sloppy clicking from my side, ended up right next to the destroyed recon car... I just slammed alt- tab and tried for some minutes to calm down by playing Napoleon before returning to the game again. Can _anyone_ think of _anything_ this stupid? I remember attending a class about brain intellect, where the absolute basis package was described as that of a cockroach: When anything extraordinary happen, RUN, run like hell. Where doesn't matter, just run. And these veteran recon troops just sat still for thirty seconds right in the middle of an easily foreseen threat.
Well, I kind of pulled myself together and continued the game, the car engine could have been broken after all. And I was getting more the hang of it this time, slaughtering infantry and zooming across the map with my armored cars as recon troops. At some time I heard the "actung feintliches panzer" sound and realised that one of the cars had driven right by some T34's hiding in some valley in the middle of an otherwise flat area. One of the T34 had noticed this and was firing shot after shot into the edge of the valley, not able to get a clear shot. My car just sat there with the rear side to the T34 untill I moved it some metres forward so the tank couldn't see it. The rest of my forces was in disarray, as I still had plenty to infantry to kill elsewhere, but by now I was getting in a kind of RTS mode and just ignored the mighty threat until I was done with the infantry killing and then redirected all my tanks in a C - shape around the spot where the tanks had been seen. The "?" was gone by now but I wasn't easy to fool, and when _all_ my tanks was ready, I ordered them all forward! It went like a breeze, even as the T34´s wasn't easy to kill and the edge of the valley was attracting a lot of fire... I finally inched one of my "edge- pounders" a few inched forward so it could hit the last tank. But whatta ya know, that kind of things DO happen a lot in RTS games... Here again, can you think of a commander of four T34 tanks NOT doing SOMETHING when hearing the rumble of 12 tanks positioning themselves around his sweet little valley? Don't you think he would crawl up from his tank to the edge of the valley to take a peek? Would he just sit there wishing they would go away, please?
Continuing with my gaming experience, I then realised that I had to get the last red flag quickly, summoned ALL my units and told them to race for the flag at super- max speed, and just as I was approaching the flag with my units while ignoring an AP gun that got a couple of my armored cars, BANG! The battle stopped! Right there floating in mid air, me using every gamey tactics in the RTS book, just before I reached the gaming goal. There seemed to be a time limit I missed in the briefing (and I re-read it later -there was no limit mentioned). And tell me: How fun exactly is a limit on battle time?
Aaarh! I think I kind of got around the full circle with this one, memorable game. And it tells me that this game is neither bird nor fish. I think you designers should decide what you want with this game. Not that it doesn't have potential - a lot of the stuff in the game is OK. But if you keep adding details, you'll end up with a clone of CM. And belive me when I say that that base is covered... I'd rather that you use some of the computer cycles saved by using miniature rules in stead of ballistic equations for some BETTER tactical AI. That could really put you ahead and make this game a sleeper hit. If your unit behave somewhat more intelligently than CM, that would make a splash.
And in general I think you got the basics right, but need to improve. You should go for a better Tactical AI to get a better immersion of the gamer in the game. And of cause Erik's list is ALWAYS good. Here are my list of what could be improvements:
- A way to set up battle plans from the start that could last several turns but aborted if the player saw the plan fading. Long -term goals is all- important. "Move around this lump of trees and arrive at this point at 1300 hours. Expect hostile s from this area". Hint: Just like a colonel would say to his thinking subordinates.
- SOP for units which they are supposed to follow when engaging. And when idle or without orders.
- Role playing "personality" of the individual units - some are braver and better than others. Maybe pictures of the platoon commanders. Whatever.
- A method to link turns up to a film, like it was done in Myth. That way a battle can be shared with others.
- "Threat arcs" and "cover arcs" determining where to aim the big guns at and where to run to if nescessary. This needs to have a "memory" so that a unit doesn't forget where that big KV-1 was hiding.
- Some effect of the chain of command. Some ideas: Wouldn't it be cool if enemy units was visible and "?" according to what unit was selected, and according to that unit's field of view? Maybe the commander could reveal found positions of enemy units to other friendlies? What if the commander only could make xx number of orders each turn? What if _no_ orders could be given to units if the commander's tank was taken out? I think there are lots of posibillities to make the chain of command visible. As it is now the chain is non- existing.
So here is to an evolving engine, hoping you will take the right direction. But damn me if I ever play the second battle in the german campaign again!
Best of luck,
Henius