Matrix Games Forums

greetings...

I had problems with bombing enemy units in "crowded hex", where both sides had quite a lot of troops in same base/hex. I was told that there is some kind of penalty for that and my bombers have smaller chance to attack the enemy. I was faced with this situation from the start of the game: at Manila, in the China and now in Rangoon.

In first two examples, there was no enemy air opposition at all but no matter how long i've waited my bombers refused to attack the enemy troops.

Now, the tide has changed. Allies insist on Mandalay and regulary bombing my ground troops - it seems that they don't suffer from this penalty (Andy can say about it more, i guess).

But i'm still unable to attack his ground troops from Rangoon, even with strong escort (2:1!!!) and have no clue what is going on?

You sure it not actually a "weather issue"? The only big issue I have with ground attacks is also vs hexes with multiple LCUs, but it applies to the CAP. The strike split should be coming after the CAP phase, not before it as happens now...all this does is give an already UBER CAP design multiple cracks at aircraft in the same squadrons or from the same airfield.

nah, Ron, i'm playing this game almost a year...and more than sure the weather, overcrowded AFs, not having a Air HQ in the base, supply issue arent problems...

Bombing troops is almost the most difficult thing in WITP (the most difficult being attacking one-ship TF with LBs).

I have never noticed more difficultes in launching raids against big stacks of LCU than againt single ones. In all cases sometimes the raid didn't launch, sometimes it did. Having recon aircraft flew before to the target hex seems to work well for me, now my bombers will fly at least 2 out of 3 days of good weather. But I agree that Allied bombers seem to find LCU targets more easilty and attack them more often.

The air attacks on multiple LCU are less efficient than against single ones because only the 1 or 2 top units will usually be attacked, so the overall power of the stack will not be greatly affected, and as Ron said the CAP will attack each wave while it should consider all attacks as a big one (and by the way intercept far fewer AC than it did, but that is another matter).

casualties when bombing enemy troops in a hex co-occupied with friendly troops are lower to abstractly represent potential friendly fire issues.

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

Bombing troops is almost the most difficult thing in WITP (the most difficult being attacking one-ship TF with LBs).

I have never noticed more difficultes in launching raids against big stacks of LCU than againt single ones. In all cases sometimes the raid didn't launch, sometimes it did. Having recon aircraft flew before to the target hex seems to work well for me, now my bombers will fly at least 2 out of 3 days of good weather. But I agree that Allied bombers seem to find LCU targets more easilty and attack them more often.

The air attacks on multiple LCU are less efficient than against single ones because only the 1 or 2 top units will usually be attacked, so the overall power of the stack will not be greatly affected, and as Ron said the CAP will attack each wave while it should consider all attacks as a big one (and by the way intercept far fewer AC than it did, but that is another matter).

The easy fix is simply switching the phases...move the CAP interception phase ahead of the target selection phase.

hm.... WiTP hates me.... i just can't get attack against enemy troops in both-contested hex.

All i've got in last two weeks were one attack where no enemy LR CAP was present (but, as i said i had more than enough escort - IMHO this is not important - bombers just love to be ambushed:)).... and i'm faced with this problem since start of my game (noted in my AAR). Always using recon, but this didn't help either....

Don't have problem with fact that Allied bombers can find LCU targets more easily than their japanese counterparts, but i wish that i could do that from time to time....

There are more checks for ground attack. Morale is especially important. Having an Air HQ within range helps alot. Check out the Bombur/Nik AAR. I've been hitting his troops in Malaca on ground attack for days. I have troops in the hex as well.

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

There are more checks for ground attack. Morale is especially important. Having an Air HQ within range helps alot. Check out the Bombur/Nik AAR. I've been hitting his troops in Malaca on ground attack for days. I have troops in the hex as well.

This has surely got to be one of the more erronous approaches to the game design.

you need new material.

Wasn't there some sort of range check for ground attack, 6 for allies/8 for IJ?

Yes.

Ron, once again, morale is an abstract thing simulating the morale and preparation state of the unit, and general ability to follow orders. There are many worst things in WITP design IMHO.

As for the range check, the specified range may need another check but is certainly not a limit. In my AAR 'Bloody Pacific', B-17 and Il-4c based in Ledo, Burma, bombed almost daily my troops near Kungchang (at least 12 hexes away) until I used LRCAP over the hex and stopped the raids.

Don't forget that Japanese bombers will not fly into heavy CAP without suitable escort - whereas Allied Heavies will fly without escort. So if there are like 25 enemy fighters on CAP in the hex, you need to have roughly the same number flying escort... they can be crappy Nates, but they need to be there.

I like to send the zeros in first with a sweep mission, then escort the bombers with Oscars or Nates - or more zeros if you have enough. Zeros on a Sweep mission seem to perform way better than those on escort.

Xargun

ORIGINAL: Xargun

I like to send the zeros in first with a sweep mission, then escort the bombers with Oscars or Nates - or more zeros if you have enough. Zeros on a Sweep mission seem to perform way better than those on escort.

Xargun

Xargun, what are the details on your sweep mission (height, etc.)? Every time I try a sweep mission in a hex with Allied fighters I lose a boatload of my fighters. Can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Xargun, what are the details on your sweep mission (height, etc.)? Every time I try a sweep mission in a hex with Allied fighters I lose a boatload of my fighters. Can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

I try to send my zeros in at a heighth roughly 3-5k above the CAP. This will give them the 'diving' bonus and force the enemy fighters to climb to engage. Also, it depends a lot on odds, experience and the actual aircraft.. But I've had zeros maul Spitfires (a decent early allied plane) with huge enemy losses..

Try to send them in only in Sentai strength (27+ planes) and 70+ experience. They should maul just about anything except the AVG... Zeros are a match for anything except the one P-40 variant... which is BS in my opinion... but oh well... If the enemy has like 20+ fighters on CAP, send 1 sentai (or 2 if you have them) on sweep and another in on escort.

I shouldn't post this, but most people fly their CAP at the same height every time - easier to manage... Usually between 10-15k... Send in your fighters at like 17k and you will have the advantage... The problem I get sometimes is that they don't engage.. or break off after like 1 attack.... Whats the point of sending fighters to kill fighters, if they don't engage ?

Anywhere I encounter heavy or consistant enemy CAP I usually bring in 2 groups of fighters to deal with it.. Either send 1 on escort every time - they will weed out the enemy fighters until he stops putting them up - or send them both in to maul him and to cover a huge air raid.. You can base your fighters at a small base close to the action (only need size 2 for fighters) and save the fatigue for long distances... This will enable you to use the fighters each turn... Anywhere you have a japanese base force, you can base a full sentair of zeros (27 planes and 30 AV support). Your fighters on a sweep mission do not have to be at the same base as the bombers... the only problem here is occaisonally your sweep mission won't launch and your bombers will go in nekkid... Have had that happen a few times with heavy bomber losses - wish there was a way to make mission conditional --- if the fighters don't escort or sweep, then the bombers don't go... Would be nice... maybe for WitP 3...

Xargun

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

Ron, once again, morale is an abstract thing simulating the morale and preparation state of the unit, and general ability to follow orders. There are many worst things in WITP design IMHO.

As for the range check, the specified range may need another check but is certainly not a limit. In my AAR 'Bloody Pacific', B-17 and Il-4c based in Ledo, Burma, bombed almost daily my troops near Kungchang (at least 12 hexes away) until I used LRCAP over the hex and stopped the raids.

That's what they say "fatigue" is.[;)] Seriously, morale has no place in the go/no go check and never should. They should go regardless and if anything, morale could conceivably be used to determine performance in combat impacts ability to sustain losses, impacts accuracy etc.)

i may be grasping at straws here, but do you think DL might be an issue? you would think DL would be high for LCU's in a hex with your own LCU's, but this game is crazy and perhaps more recon?

even in the jungle where ground support mission were often hit or miss affairs early on, and could be as dangerous to your own troops as with those of the enemy?

I havenet noticed any issue form the allied side
 
GAttack missions are very difficult to launch with bombers, I find FB's launch easily
 
Also need to remember that Ground Attack need to pass a hard morale tests (low level attack is hard to launch), fatigue tests and the target hex has to be within 2/3 of normal range.
 
So my Range 14 Liberators are able to Ground attack at 9 hexes.
 
I dont know why Pauks missions are failing to launch although I have a large numbers of rotating fighters on LRCAP