Matrix Games Forums

Wasn't sure where to put this, but hopefully David looks in this area. Some of this will be stuff I'd like to see fixed, some will be stuff I'd like to see added

1. Substitutions - there need to be more than just injury subs. Starters should get tired and get subbed for, rest, then return to the game.

2. Onside kicks, squib kicks, fake punts, fake field goals all need to be added

3. Customizable camera angles with the ability to zoom in & out

4. The interface should scale with your screen resolution. It looks weird to have your monitor set to 1600x1200 then start the game and see the interface in what looks like 800x600 where everything is huge.

5. Sortable stat displays!!!!!! I can't stress this enough. Sortable stat displays!!!!

6. Drop down menus. Currently some are and some aren't.

7. In the stat displays, it would be nice to be able to click on a player and have his profile page open up. For instance if I'm looking at the league's rushing leaders and I click on the third guy in the list, then it should take me to his profile page.

8. Beef up the game logs. They should at least display the score of the game. Currently they don't and if you go back and look at the logs, you have no way of knowing who won the game. I know it's bad form to mention other games, but take a look at the boxscores Madden generates. I'd like to see something like that.

9. More variety in the player creation routine. Players at a given position are all very similar in ratings. There needs to be more variety to separate a great player from a bad one.

10. Separate RBs into HB & FB. Separate DBs into CB & S, separate OL into C & G & T, separate DL into DT & DE

11. Add an option for a 53 man roster

12. More on substitutions - sometimes in blowouts I would like to take my starters out and let the backups play. I'd like a quick and easy way to put in my backup QB or RB for all formations and plays.

13. Schedule creation needs to be improved. I want to play each team in my division twice and then fill out the rest of the schedule. I don't want to spend a ton of time trying to make that happen. Maybe create an option to import a schedule from Excel or something.

14. Keep track of stats - like top 10 rushing performances for a game/season/career, etc.

15. Add a hall of fame if there isn't one already.

A few more I thought of...

16. In the scoreboard displays, the home team should be on the bottom and the visitors on top. On the screens where they are side by side, visitors should be on the left, home on the right.

17. In the play by play that gets displayed, it would be nice to list a player's position and number in addition to his full name. Instead of "Tackle made by Ostroski" it would be "Tackle made by #55 LB Henry Ostroski" and then recorded in the game logs.

18. Better clock management. All too often I've seen situations where a team is down by 7 or fewer points late in the game on their own 15 yard line calling running plays. It's an obvious passing situation. Same goes with teams that are up by 14 points that are passing the ball when they clearly should be running the ball to take more time off the clock.

19. To go along with #18 above, there is no sense of urgency late in the game or half when a team should be getting quickly to the line to run a play. There should be some type of "hurry-up" offense so that they're not just standing around letting precious seconds tick off the clock.

20. There should be an option to spike the ball to stop the clock.

good suggestions for the future...

I would agree with most of your suggestions, and many of those have been asked for before as well.

Just so you know, you can create your own fake punt and field goal plays, so that is already in the game.

To add to your clock management, I've found the CPU team calling timeouts at times when it clearly benefits the other team in the last minute of halfs.

1. Substitutions - there need to be more than just injury subs. Starters should get tired and get subbed for, rest, then return to the game.

That should be already in the game when you have fatigue on. The problem is that you do not know if a AI player is fatigued and substituted - during the game you can not see the opponent roster.

10. Separate RBs into HB & FB. Separate DBs into CB & S, separate OL into C & G & T, separate DL into DT & DE

Something like that looks good but i have doubts if that represents reals football. So you do not have only HB and FB. Some FB in the past would now be RB. So James Brown is listed as FB in Total Football II. Some FB are only blockers and part time runners and the most FB have more pass catches than rushes. An other problem is the H-Back, many FB who were FB in the first years of their career are now listed as TE and so on. The same problems are on the defensive side, some teams have only safties, other FS and SS, then we see puss rush specialists and so on.

I made the proposal that the game do not use such special assignment like C and G, but when you create a formation you assign to every player spot the general type of palyyer and define then the player using two or more rating which are important for his role in that formation.

Example: We create for a obvious passing situation a 4-2-5 formation. 4 stands for four DL but we will use a pass rush specialist and he should replace a DT. Now the left DL will have as key rating Speed and Block Avoidance, the next DL (in normal situations the left DE) has as key ratings Block Avoidance and Strength and so on.

11. Add an option for a 53 man roster

DW stated this is added in a newer build. This build is at the moment not public.

13. Schedule creation needs to be improved. I want to play each team in my division twice and then fill out the rest of the schedule. I don't want to spend a ton of time trying to make that happen. Maybe create an option to import a schedule from Excel or something.

A schedule editor is now provided (latest public beta patch).

[font="courier new"]Tullius[/font][font="courier new"],[/font]
 
       

quote:


10. Separate RBs into HB & FB. Separate DBs into CB & S, separate OL into C & G & T, separate DL into DT & DE


Something like that looks good but i have doubts if that represents real football. So you do not have only HB and FB. Some FB in the past would now be RB. So James Brown is listed as FB in Total Football II. Some FB are only blockers and part time runners and the most FB have more pass catches than rushes. An other problem is the H-Back, many FB who were FB in the first years of their career are now listed as TE and so on. The same problems are on the defensive side, some teams have only safties, other FS and SS, then we see puss rush specialists and so on.

I made the proposal that the game do not use such special assignment like C and G, but when you create a formation you assign to every player spot the general type of palyer and define then the player using two or more rating which are important for his role in that formation.

Example: We create for a obvious passing situation a 4-2-5 formation. 4 stands for four DL but we will use a pass rush specialist and he should replace a DT. Now the left DL will have as key rating Speed and Block Avoidance, the next DL (in normal situations the left DE) has as key ratings Block Avoidance and Strength and so on.

 
[font="courier new"]I agree with you; however, why cannot MF have what both of you want? [/font]
[font="courier new"]The reason I would want both, is because few NFL players can be multifunctional, like you exaggrate (sp?). Example, Large majority of NFL FBs cannot do more than just block, dive runs and catch short passes,. Large majority of NFL HBs/SBs and etc cannot do more than just run, pass block, and catch passes; certainly cannot do NFL FB quality run blocking.[/font]
[font="courier new"]Plus, I do not like Performance Numbers like 'Block Avoidance'; instead of having to put together raw performance numbers together to establish 'Block Avoidance' skill. You have a player with certain fast, power, health and IQ performance numbers, then you play long pass defense's pass rusher.[/font]

quote:

13. Schedule creation needs to be improved. I want to play each team in my division twice and then fill out the rest of the schedule. I don't want to spend a ton of time trying to make that happen. Maybe create an option to import a schedule from Excel or something.

A schedule editor is now provided (latest public beta patch).

 
[font="courier new"]Does it provide all the need qualities that he posts about?[/font]

division twice and then fill out the rest of the schedule. I don't want to spend a ton of time trying to make that happen. Maybe create an option to import a schedule from Excel or something

[font="courier new"]Yet, the freedom to take the time to create a PreSeason and Regular Season schedules that equal all teams played?[/font]

ORIGINAL: Tullius

1. Substitutions - there need to be more than just injury subs. Starters should get tired and get subbed for, rest, then return to the game.

That should be already in the game when you have fatigue on. The problem is that you do not know if a AI player is fatigued and substituted - during the game you can not see the opponent roster.

Pretty sure it's not happening. Running backs play the entire game without rest, the same 5 O-Linemen are out there every play.

10. Separate RBs into HB & FB. Separate DBs into CB & S, separate OL into C & G & T, separate DL into DT & DE

Something like that looks good but i have doubts if that represents reals football. So you do not have only HB and FB. Some FB in the past would now be RB. So James Brown is listed as FB in Total Football II. Some FB are only blockers and part time runners and the most FB have more pass catches than rushes. An other problem is the H-Back, many FB who were FB in the first years of their career are now listed as TE and so on. The same problems are on the defensive side, some teams have only safties, other FS and SS, then we see puss rush specialists and so on.

I made the proposal that the game do not use such special assignment like C and G, but when you create a formation you assign to every player spot the general type of palyyer and define then the player using two or more rating which are important for his role in that formation.

Example: We create for a obvious passing situation a 4-2-5 formation. 4 stands for four DL but we will use a pass rush specialist and he should replace a DT. Now the left DL will have as key rating Speed and Block Avoidance, the next DL (in normal situations the left DE) has as key ratings Block Avoidance and Strength and so on.

Yes I realize some players might alternate between the FB & HB position in real life. I still would like the distinction made between the positions. The type of player you look for in the FB position is generally different than what you look for in a full time HB. We still have the ability to change a player's position, so it shouldn't be an issue.

11. Add an option for a 53 man roster

DW stated this is added in a newer build. This build is at the moment not public.

I missed that announcement, but if it's true then that is awesome.

13. Schedule creation needs to be improved. I want to play each team in my division twice and then fill out the rest of the schedule. I don't want to spend a ton of time trying to make that happen. Maybe create an option to import a schedule from Excel or something.

A schedule editor is now provided (latest public beta patch).

[/quote]

Yes I realize there is a schedule editor in the game now albeit a very basic one. As I stated above, I don't want to spend a ton of time trying to create a realistic schedule every season.

[font="courier new"]Guys, [/font]
[font="courier new"][/font] 
[font="courier new"]        Some of what he has posted is already solved by other past and present FB Gaming Industry's games (FBP '98 and EAS, etc); thus it is crazy that MF has not solved some of these completely.[/font]

DW doesn't have access to other company's code.  It's called plagarism, and it's highly illegal, so he had to build from the ground up.

[font="courier new"]dreamtheatervt[/font][font="courier new"],[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font] 
[font="courier new"]                         I am not posting about stealing from those FB Gaming Industry companies (past and present); I am posting about progression of a series, let alone of the rest of the industry past MF. I am not posting that MF does not have some really awesome features and then some really great features, with a lot of protential, but have short comings.[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font] 
[font="courier new"]Any other member,[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font] 
[font="courier new"]                    Did the thought that I wanted MF to steal come into your mind, while reading my post?[/font]

Some more stuff I thought of:

21.  Drive summaries...  Wouldn't it be nice after a score to see a little summary showing how many plays were run, how many yards were gained, and how much time the drive took? 

22.  Viewable box scores.  Let's say I'm in week 9 of my season and I want to see the box scores of a game I played back in week 1.  It would be great if I could go back to that week on the schedule, click on the game and see the box score for that particular game.  I realize that the game does store the gamelogs for viewing within Windows, but it would be nice to see them in the game.

21.  Drive summaries...  Wouldn't it be nice after a score to see a
little summary showing how many plays were run, how many yards were
gained, and how much time the drive took? 

22.  Viewable box scores.  Let's say I'm in week 9 of my season and I
want to see the box scores of a game I played back in week 1.  It would
be great if I could go back to that week on the schedule, click on the
game and see the box score for that particular game.  I realize that
the game does store the gamelogs for viewing within Windows, but it would
be nice to see them in the game.

 
[font="courier new"]I strongly support both wish list items; however, not that high on my wish list.[/font]

Lucas, I like many of your wishlist items.  Myself and others have asked for some of them before, so your not alone in your thinking.

Here are a few of my thoughts on these:

1. Substitutions - there need to be more than just injury subs. Starters should get tired and get subbed for, rest, then return to the game.

I agree.  I really like the way FBPro did it with automatic subs as a percentage of fatigue.

2. Onside kicks, squib kicks, fake punts, fake field goals all need to be added

Fake punts and field goals can be added.  I have some PDS 1.0 plays for them, and I should have some 2.0 plays created with the default playbooks.

3. Customizable camera angles with the ability to zoom in & out

Customizable camera angles is tougher to do, but zoom has been asked for.  Perhaps as the graphics get updated, some of that will as well.

4. The interface should scale with your screen resolution. It looks weird to have your monitor set to 1600x1200 then start the game and see the interface in what looks like 800x600 where everything is huge.

This has been asked for, but I don't think David has the time to make several scaled interfaces.  He has mentioned making the screens a higher resolution as part of his future considerations, but time is always a factor, so bugs come first.

5. Sortable stat displays!!!!!! I can't stress this enough. Sortable stat displays!!!!

Because much of the interface is in Direct3D, sortable tables are tough to do.  Perhaps a nice stat utility would help.

6. Drop down menus. Currently some are and some aren't.

That's a similar situation to the previous item.  It would be nice to have everything work just about the same.  Considering the game code is many years old, I'm sure some things changed in between coding one thing and another. 

7. In the stat displays, it would be nice to be able to click on a player and have his profile page open up. For instance if I'm looking at the league's rushing leaders and I click on the third guy in the list, then it should take me to his profile page.

That would be cool.

8. Beef up the game logs. They should at least display the score of the game. Currently they don't and if you go back and look at the logs, you have no way of knowing who won the game. I know it's bad form to mention other games, but take a look at the boxscores Madden generates. I'd like to see something like that.

Yes, game logs and box scores would be nice.

9. More variety in the player creation routine. Players at a given position are all very similar in ratings. There needs to be more variety to separate a great player from a bad one.

You can set that up yourself if you would like to.  Some beta guys have changed some rating creation fields for older era leagues or to test wider variations on game play.

10. Separate RBs into HB & FB. Separate DBs into CB & S, separate OL into C & G & T, separate DL into DT & DE

I agree.  This would take some revamping of how rosters work though, so it would be a large project.

11. Add an option for a 53 man roster

You'll see that soon, as David has already announced it (it should be in the next public release).

12. More on substitutions - sometimes in blowouts I would like to take my starters out and let the backups play. I'd like a quick and easy way to put in my backup QB or RB for all formations and plays.

I have not been testing how the global substitution works.

13. Schedule creation needs to be improved. I want to play each team in my division twice and then fill out the rest of the schedule. I don't want to spend a ton of time trying to make that happen. Maybe create an option to import a schedule from Excel or something.

Time is a consideration here.  I have posted a large procedure for schedule creation, but getting it into the game would not be an easy task.

14. Keep track of stats - like top 10 rushing performances for a game/season/career, etc.

I agree.  This goes along with having a nice statistics utility.

15. Add a hall of fame if there isn't one already.

I dislike it when games select the Hall of Fame players.  The coaches in my league vote on this.

16. In the scoreboard displays, the home team should be on the bottom and the visitors on top. On the screens where they are side by side, visitors should be on the left, home on the right.

That is generally the case in the real world.

17. In the play by play that gets displayed, it would be nice to list a player's position and number in addition to his full name. Instead of "Tackle made by Ostroski" it would be "Tackle made by #55 LB Henry Ostroski" and then recorded in the game logs.

People should chime in on this.  It would be nice for the game log, but a comentator wouldn't always say that.

I am still hoping for an option to not have the plays displayed.  I don't mind people scouting me, but I don't want them to know the exact plays I call.

18. Better clock management. All too often I've seen situations where a team is down by 7 or fewer points late in the game on their own 15 yard line calling running plays. It's an obvious passing situation. Same goes with teams that are up by 14 points that are passing the ball when they clearly should be running the ball to take more time off the clock.

The gameplan should be able to take care of most of this.  Creating a good situational gameplan is as important as creating plays for a playbook.

19. To go along with #18 above, there is no sense of urgency late in the game or half when a team should be getting quickly to the line to run a play. There should be some type of "hurry-up" offense so that they're not just standing around letting precious seconds tick off the clock.

Players do get to the line quicker later in the game if they are behind.  David has programmed this in.  Perhaps it needs some tweaking.

20. There should be an option to spike the ball to stop the clock.

This should be an easy play to do.  Remind me to create one for the default book.

21.  Drive summaries...  Wouldn't it be nice after a score to see a little summary showing how many plays were run, how many yards were gained, and how much time the drive took?

22.  Viewable box scores.  Let's say I'm in week 9 of my season and I want to see the box scores of a game I played back in week 1.  It would be great if I could go back to that week on the schedule, click on the game and see the box score for that particular game.  I realize that the game does store the gamelogs for viewing within Windows, but it would be nice to see them in the game.

Again, these would have to be part of a statistics utility either from David or a third party.  Does anyone know Sundby's phone number?

- Marauders

[blockquote]
[blockquote]

quote:

12. More on substitutions - sometimes in blowouts I would like to take my starters out and let the backups play. I'd like a quick and easy way to put in my backup QB or RB for all formations and plays.[/blockquote]


I have not been testing how the global substitution works.

[/blockquote]

[font="courier new"]I actually liked the way Madden '03-'04 best (I think; have not touched Madden since). The whole 2nd-Franchises of both the Franchises (defense & offense, just had to wait until your offense or defense took the field) that are winning & losing big enough (how I determine the enough is, that the result is guarranteed) could be subbed out. The only problem, I think, was the starters could not come back.[/font]
[blockquote]

quote:

7. In the stat displays, it would be nice to be able to click on a player and have his profile page open up. For instance if I'm looking at the league's rushing leaders and I click on the third guy in the list, then it should take me to his profile page.[/blockquote]


That would be cool.

[font="courier new"]That would be REALLY COOL!! Great idea man; did another FB Game already have that or did you think of that already? Plua, it does not seem like it would too much of a technology junp for FB Gaming Industry, let alone MF. 
[/font]

quote:

8. Beef up the game logs. They should at least display the score of the game. Currently they don't and if you go back and look at the logs, you have no way of knowing who won the game. I know it's bad form to mention other games, but take a look at the boxscores Madden generates. I'd like to see something like that.


Yes, game logs and box scores would be nice.

[font="courier new"]That is crazy, there is no stat that is more important. Why is it bad form to talk about other games? I guessing, but is it because other (too sensitive, to any other game<s> being better in other way<s>) members do not want to read about other games?[/font]
[blockquote]

quote:

14. Keep track of stats - like top 10 rushing performances for a game/season/career, etc. [/blockquote]


I agree.  This goes along with having a nice statistics utility.

[font="courier new"][/font] 
[font="courier new"]I have not played Madden (since '04); however, would that not be a brand new feature for FB Gaming Industry? I mean without sorting the stats that already exists, to find top The ten-players. If so, for now, that would too much to ask from MF.[/font]

quote:

15. Add a hall of fame if there isn't one already.
I dislike it when games select the Hall of Fame players.  The coaches in my league vote on this.

[font="courier new"]Heck yeah, that baddly need; any other non-utility based way is not pernament and cannot be visited over and over.[/font]

quote:

16. In the scoreboard displays, the home team should be on the bottom and the visitors on top. On the screens where they are side by side, visitors should be on the left, home on the right.


That is generally the case in the real world.

[font="courier new"]But is this really important, beyond keeping with stadium simulations? Will not you got use to it, eventually? [/font]
[blockquote]

quote:

17. In the play by play that gets displayed, it would be nice to list a player's position and number in addition to his full name. Instead of "Tackle made by Ostroski" it would be "Tackle made by #55 LB Henry Ostroski" and then recorded in the game logs.[/blockquote]

People should chime in on this.  It would be nice for the game log, but a comentator wouldn't always say that.

[font="courier new"]For the opposing Franchises' players this is needed, unless you have a well organized roster f the players and play clock time to go through it (with your TE shifting/motioning infront of the OL), thus I think it is necessary. 
[/font]

I am still hoping for an option to not have the plays displayed.  I don't mind people scouting me, but I don't want them to know the exact plays I call.

[X(][font="courier new"]You mean Play by Play shows a picture of each Franchise's called plays, with the players routes, zones and etc? Is that before snap or after the play? I guessing the later is what you meant. Maybe, it should be restricted to just a few, for the commentators to talk about and you know draw on top of, using the tell-a-prompter (<sp?> cannot remember the name of that machine/process, so used the closes thing).[/font]
[blockquote]

quote:

18. Better clock management. All too often I've seen situations where a team is down by 7 or fewer points late in the game on their own 15 yard line calling running plays. It's an obvious passing situation. Same goes with teams that are up by 14 points that are passing the ball when they clearly should be running the ball to take more time off the clock.[/blockquote]

The gameplan should be able to take care of most of this.  Creating a good situational gameplan is as important as creating plays for a playbook.

 

[font="courier new"]Yeah, but [/font]

Creating a good situational gameplan

[font="courier new"](Which is really a profile, not a gameplan-just something that annoys me)  should not have to be done for the UPC controlled Franchises, by the human players.[/font]
[blockquote]

quote:

19. To go along with #18 above, there is no sense of urgency late in the game or half when a team should be getting quickly to the line to run a play. There should be some type of "hurry-up" offense so that they're not just standing around letting precious seconds tick off the clock.[/blockquote]

Players do get to the line quicker later in the game if they are behind.  David has programmed this in.  Perhaps it needs some tweaking.

[font="courier new"]I liked slow walks to the line (with leads) when I do not want to risk injuries to blow-up a Franchise/Program/Team; however, I did not use The No Huddle offense. It should be handled like others do, push or hold on to a button and either you go right to the line with the play before or move faster to the line after given a play. I liked Madden's best, of course it is easier through a joystick.[/font]
[blockquote]

quote:

20. There should be an option to spike the ball to stop the clock.[/blockquote]
This should be an easy play to do.  Remind me to create one for the default book.

[font="courier new"]That is just basic Football now, crazy not t have it; Marauders is right, you can create one-at least you can in FBP '98. However, why the heck does not MF provide it?[/font]

[blockquote]

quote:

21.  Drive summaries...  Wouldn't it be nice after a score to see a little summary showing how many plays were run, how many yards were gained, and how much time the drive took?

22.  Viewable box scores.  Let's say I'm in week 9 of my season and I want to see the box scores of a game I played back in week 1.  It would be great if I could go back to that week on the schedule, click on the game and see the box score for that particular game.  I realize that the game does store the gamelogs for viewing within Windows, but it would be nice to see them in the game.[/blockquote]

Again, these would have to be part of a statistics utility either from David or a third party. Does anyone know Sundby's phone number?

[X(][font="courier new"]Is that the same Sundby that did utilities for FBP series, especially '98? Hope, I did not repeat myself from another time; because I cannot belief, if he is a MF utility creator, I have known this before.[/font]

It's too difficult to keep up with all the quoting, so I'll take these one at a time...

ORIGINAL: GWsFBAReservUrFBTeam


[blockquote]

quote:



7. In the stat displays, it would be nice to be able to click on a player and have his profile page open up. For instance if I'm looking at the league's rushing leaders and I click on the third guy in the list, then it should take me to his profile page.[/blockquote]


That would be cool.

[font="courier new"]That would be REALLY COOL!! Great idea man; did another FB Game already have that or did you think of that already? Plua, it does not seem like it would too much of a technology junp for FB Gaming Industry, let alone MF.
[/font]

I was thinking of OOTP baseball, but I believe this is becoming a standard for all games these days.

ORIGINAL: GWsFBAReservUrFBTeam


[blockquote]



8. Beef up the game logs. They should at least display the score of the game. Currently they don't and if you go back and look at the logs, you have no way of knowing who won the game. I know it's bad form to mention other games, but take a look at the boxscores Madden generates. I'd like to see something like that.


Yes, game logs and box scores would be nice.

[font="courier new"]That is crazy, there is no stat that is more important. Why is it bad form to talk about other games? I guessing, but is it because other (too sensitive, to any other game<s> being better in other way<s>) members do not want to read about other games?[/font] [/blockquote]


Because I think people get tired of hearing "well, Madden does it this way..."

ORIGINAL: GWsFBAReservUrFBTeam

[blockquote]


16. In the scoreboard displays, the home team should be on the bottom and the visitors on top. On the screens where they are side by side, visitors should be on the left, home on the right.


That is generally the case in the real world.

[font="courier new"]But is this really important, beyond keeping with stadium simulations? Will not you got use to it, eventually? [/font]
[/blockquote]

Yes it is important. Every game you play is that way. Every game you watch on tv is that way. It has become a standard that should be adhered to.

[font="Courier New"]Lucas718[/font],

It's too difficult to keep up with all the quoting, so I'll take these one at a time...

[font="courier new"]Sorry, about that, to me it is easy-because my personalized font.[/font]

[font="courier new"]Lucas718[/font],
&nbsp;

Because I think people get tired of hearing "well, Madden does it this way..."

&nbsp;
[font="courier new"]You know, I am on here a lot; you know&nbsp;it is rarely done. It is just too sensitive members.[/font]

ORIGINAL: GWsFBAReservUrFBTeam

[blockquote]


17. In the play by play that gets displayed, it would be nice to list a player's position and number in addition to his full name. Instead of "Tackle made by Ostroski" it would be "Tackle made by #55 LB Henry Ostroski" and then recorded in the game logs.

People should chime in on this. It would be nice for the game log, but a comentator wouldn't always say that.

[font="courier new"]For the opposing Franchises' players this is needed, unless you have a well organized roster f the players and play clock time to go through it (with your TE shifting/motioning infront of the OL), thus I think it is necessary.
[/font][/blockquote]

I agree. Think about a team like the Bengals that has about 18 players with the last name Johnson. Using the current set up, how would I know which one it was?