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The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:12 pm
by Feinder
That they only put forth 2 or 3 examples that have frustrated them. They don't bother to post every action that PTs have been involved in, in their game.
So here goes. Good or ill. This is every action that PTs have participated in, in my game vs. LtFightr.
This is Dec '41. Nothing unusual thus far. They managed to surprise a single invasion TF with "good" results, torp into a transport, and a torp into a PC. The rest of the time, they've been fodder...
Am compiling Jan '41, while I wait for my turn. I have results for every turn, up to our current turn in mid-July '42.
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Night Time Surface Combat, near Cagayan at 42,59
Japanese Ships
PG Oi Maru
PG Takunan Maru #3
PG Tamo Maru #6
PG Tamo Maru #7
AP Kaisho Maru
AP Karimo Maru
AP Kinjosan Maru
AP Kiyoshima Maru
AP Kureha Maru #3
AP Taganoura Maru
AP Michiyu Maru
AP Rozan Maru
Allied Ships
PT PT-33, Shell hits 23, and is sunk
PT PT-41
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Night Time Surface Combat, near Legaspi at 44,55
Japanese Ships
AP Tatuwa Maru, Shell hits 56, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
Allied Ships
PT PT-31
PT PT-32
PT PT-34
PT PT-35
PT PT-41
PT PT-48
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Day Air attack on TF, near Iloilo at 42,56
Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 10
No Japanese losses
Allied Ships
PT PT-34, Shell hits 4
PT PT-31, Shell hits 4
PT PT-48, Shell hits 4
Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Roxas at 42,55
Japanese Ships
PC Gamitsu Maru #1
PC Showa Maru #5, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atsuta Maru
AK Ehime Maru
AP Heiwa Maru
AP Horai Maru, Torpedo hits 1
Allied Ships
PT PT-31
PT PT-32
PT PT-34
PT PT-35
PT PT-41
PT PT-48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Iloilo at 42,56
Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 10
No Japanese losses
Allied Ships
PT PT-32
PT PT-35, Shell hits 4
PT PT-31, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Tagbalarin at 43,58
Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 10
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27 Nate: 1 destroyed
Allied Ships
PT PT-32
PT PT-35, Shell hits 4, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
3 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Tacloban at 44,58
Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 10
No Japanese losses
Allied Ships
PT PT-32
PT PT-41
PT PT-34
Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Tacloban at 44,58
Japanese Ships
CL Natori
CL Yura
CL Kinu
CL Kitakami
DD Shiratsuyu
DD Ariake
DD Satsuki
DD Minazuki
DD Fumizuki
DD Nagatsuki
DD Harukaze
DD Hatakaze
DD Minekaze
DD Yakaze
DD Yukaze
DD Nokaze
DD Namikaze
DD Numakaze
DD Kuri
DD Tsuga
DD Hasu
DD Wakatake
Allied Ships
PT PT-32, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT PT-34, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
PT PT-41
PT PT-48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Tacloban at 44,58
Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 10
No Japanese losses
Allied Ships
PT PT-48
PT PT-41, Shell hits 4
Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Tacloban at 44,58
Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 10
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27 Nate: 1 damaged
Allied Ships
PT PT-48, Shell hits 4
PT PT-41, Shell hits 4
Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Singkawang at 25,57
Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CL Sendai
CL Isuzu
DD Maikaze
DD Nowaki
DD Arashi
DD Fubuki
DD Shinonome
DD Shirakumo
DD Isonami
DD Shirayuki
DD Murakumo
DD Shikinami
DD Ayanami
DD Asagiri
DD Amagiri
DD Kasasagi
DD Hayabusa
DD Kari
DD Kiji
DD Kamo
Allied Ships
PT TM-4
PT TM-5
PT TM-6
PT TM-7
PT TM-8
PT TM-9
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 44,66
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5
No Japanese losses
Allied Ships
PT PT-48, Shell hits 4
PT PT-41, Shell hits 12, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
Aircraft Attacking:
1 x A6M2 Zero attacking at 100 feet
4 x A6M2 Zero attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Singkawang at 25,57
Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CL Sendai
CL Isuzu
DD Maikaze
DD Nowaki
DD Arashi
DD Fubuki
DD Shinonome
DD Shirakumo
DD Isonami
DD Shirayuki
DD Murakumo
DD Shikinami
DD Ayanami
DD Asagiri
DD Amagiri
DD Kasasagi
DD Hayabusa
DD Kari
DD Kiji
DD Kamo
Allied Ships
PT TM-4
PT TM-5
PT TM-6
PT TM-7
PT TM-8, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT TM-9
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:24 pm
by Feinder
January sees quite a few naval battles vs. PTs. The PTs are 1-4 in Januarly. They sink 1x DD, and lose 9 of their own. Not very remarkable (unless you fixate on the first battle)
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Night Time Surface Combat, near Pontianak at 25,58
Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
CA Takao
CA Atago
CL Jintsu
DD Asashio
DD Oshio, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Michishio
DD Arashio
DD Akatsuki, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Hibiki
DD Usugumo
DD Hatsuyuki
DD Uranami
DD Sagiri
DD Akikaze
Allied Ships
PT TM-4
PT TM-5
PT TM-6
PT TM-7, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT TM-9
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Night Time Surface Combat, near Pontianak at 25,58
Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
CA Takao
CA Atago
CL Jintsu
DD Asashio
DD Michishio
DD Arashio
DD Hibiki
DD Usugumo
DD Hatsuyuki
DD Uranami
DD Sagiri
DD Akikaze
Allied Ships
PT TM-4, Shell hits 28, and is sunk
PT TM-5
PT TM-6
PT TM-9
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Pontianak at 25,58
Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CL Isuzu
DD Maikaze
DD Nowaki
DD Arashi
DD Fubuki
DD Shinonome
DD Shirakumo
DD Isonami
DD Shirayuki
DD Murakumo
DD Shikinami
DD Ayanami
DD Asagiri
DD Amagiri
DD Kasasagi
DD Hayabusa
DD Kari
DD Kiji
DD Kamo
Allied Ships
PT TM-5, Shell hits 33, and is sunk
PT TM-6, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
PT TM-9, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
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Night Time Surface Combat, near Batavia at 19,59
Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CL Isuzu
DD Maikaze
DD Nowaki
DD Arashi
DD Fubuki
DD Shinonome
DD Shirakumo
DD Isonami
DD Shirayuki
DD Murakumo
DD Shikinami
DD Ayanami
DD Asagiri
DD Amagiri
DD Kasasagi
DD Hayabusa
DD Kari
DD Kiji
DD Kamo
Allied Ships
PT TM-10
PT TM-11, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT TM-12
PT TM-13
PT TM-14, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT TM-15, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Soerabaja at 22,65
Japanese Ships
BB Nagato
BB Mutsu
BB Yamashiro
CA Haguro
DD Yugure
DD Okikaze
Allied Ships
PT TM-10, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
PT TM-12
PT TM-13
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:32 pm
by Feinder
Oops. The "PT menace" are0-2 in February, and lose 2 more of thier own.
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Night Time Surface Combat, near Soerabaja at 22,65
Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CL Isuzu
DD Maikaze, Shell hits 1
DD Nowaki
DD Arashi
DD Fubuki
DD Shinonome
DD Shirakumo
DD Isonami
DD Shirayuki, on fire, heavy damage
DD Murakumo
DD Shikinami
DD Ayanami
DD Asagiri
DD Amagiri
DD Kasasagi
DD Hayabusa
DD Kari
DD Kiji
DD Kamo
Allied Ships
PT TM-12
PT TM-13, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Soerabaja at 22,65
Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu
CA Haguro
DD Okikaze
Allied Ships
PT TM-12, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:38 pm
by Feinder
March shows no PT activity. Probably has a lot to do with a lack of bases, and a lack of PTs.
-F-
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:41 pm
by rtrapasso
Feinder - this is very similar to stuff i see.
i agree - by "quoting" one case, you can make things look VERY lopsided.
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:48 pm
by KDonovan
i'll chime in with my results from my PBEM game...now in May 1943
63 PT - sunk
for
2 Jap DD - sunk
2-4 Jap DD - damaged
seems fair to me (btw not one of my PT's were sunk by aerial strafing...all surface engagements)
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:06 pm
by pauk
ORIGINAL: Feinder
That they only put forth 2 or 3 examples that have frustrated them. They don't bother to post every action that PTs have been involved in, in their game.
So here goes. Good or ill. This is every action that PTs have participated in, in my game vs. LtFightr.
This is Dec '41. Nothing unusual thus far. They managed to surprise a single invasion TF with "good" results, torp into a transport, and a torp into a PC. The rest of the time, they've been fodder...
Am compiling Jan '41, while I wait for my turn. I have results for every turn, up to our current turn in mid-July '42.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Cagayan at 42,59
Japanese Ships
PG Oi Maru
PG Takunan Maru #3
PG Tamo Maru #6
PG Tamo Maru #7
AP Kaisho Maru
AP Karimo Maru
AP Kinjosan Maru
AP Kiyoshima Maru
AP Kureha Maru #3
AP Taganoura Maru
AP Michiyu Maru
AP Rozan Maru
Allied Ships
PT PT-33, Shell hits 23, and is sunk
PT PT-41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Legaspi at 44,55
Japanese Ships
AP Tatuwa Maru, Shell hits 56, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
Allied Ships
PT PT-31
PT PT-32
PT PT-34
PT PT-35
PT PT-41
PT PT-48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Iloilo at 42,56
Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 10
No Japanese losses
Allied Ships
PT PT-34, Shell hits 4
PT PT-31, Shell hits 4
PT PT-48, Shell hits 4
Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Roxas at 42,55
Japanese Ships
PC Gamitsu Maru #1
PC Showa Maru #5, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atsuta Maru
AK Ehime Maru
AP Heiwa Maru
AP Horai Maru, Torpedo hits 1
Allied Ships
PT PT-31
PT PT-32
PT PT-34
PT PT-35
PT PT-41
PT PT-48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Iloilo at 42,56
Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 10
No Japanese losses
Allied Ships
PT PT-32
PT PT-35, Shell hits 4
PT PT-31, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Tagbalarin at 43,58
Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 10
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27 Nate: 1 destroyed
Allied Ships
PT PT-32
PT PT-35, Shell hits 4, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
3 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Tacloban at 44,58
Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 10
No Japanese losses
Allied Ships
PT PT-32
PT PT-41
PT PT-34
Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Tacloban at 44,58
Japanese Ships
CL Natori
CL Yura
CL Kinu
CL Kitakami
DD Shiratsuyu
DD Ariake
DD Satsuki
DD Minazuki
DD Fumizuki
DD Nagatsuki
DD Harukaze
DD Hatakaze
DD Minekaze
DD Yakaze
DD Yukaze
DD Nokaze
DD Namikaze
DD Numakaze
DD Kuri
DD Tsuga
DD Hasu
DD Wakatake
Allied Ships
PT PT-32, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT PT-34, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
PT PT-41
PT PT-48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Tacloban at 44,58
Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 10
No Japanese losses
Allied Ships
PT PT-48
PT PT-41, Shell hits 4
Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Tacloban at 44,58
Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 10
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27 Nate: 1 damaged
Allied Ships
PT PT-48, Shell hits 4
PT PT-41, Shell hits 4
Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
4 x Ki-27 Nate attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Singkawang at 25,57
Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CL Sendai
CL Isuzu
DD Maikaze
DD Nowaki
DD Arashi
DD Fubuki
DD Shinonome
DD Shirakumo
DD Isonami
DD Shirayuki
DD Murakumo
DD Shikinami
DD Ayanami
DD Asagiri
DD Amagiri
DD Kasasagi
DD Hayabusa
DD Kari
DD Kiji
DD Kamo
Allied Ships
PT TM-4
PT TM-5
PT TM-6
PT TM-7
PT TM-8
PT TM-9
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 44,66
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5
No Japanese losses
Allied Ships
PT PT-48, Shell hits 4
PT PT-41, Shell hits 12, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
Aircraft Attacking:
1 x A6M2 Zero attacking at 100 feet
4 x A6M2 Zero attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Singkawang at 25,57
Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CL Sendai
CL Isuzu
DD Maikaze
DD Nowaki
DD Arashi
DD Fubuki
DD Shinonome
DD Shirakumo
DD Isonami
DD Shirayuki
DD Murakumo
DD Shikinami
DD Ayanami
DD Asagiri
DD Amagiri
DD Kasasagi
DD Hayabusa
DD Kari
DD Kiji
DD Kamo
Allied Ships
PT TM-4
PT TM-5
PT TM-6
PT TM-7
PT TM-8, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT TM-9
ok, lets do a simple maths.... three PTs are sunk (3 VP) and three more are heavily damaged and will sink ... that makes it 6 VP or one old jap DD...
They heavily damaged 1 AP (ok not a big deal, but still 5 VP) and one PC (3-5 VP).. so lets assume this is a draw, right...
I'm bit suprised that you compare these two things, because you did play Jap side and you know how many DDs Japan recives... so, while Allies have enourmous pool of cheap, expendable PTs every DD lost is a disaster for the Japan (i won't go into details and disclose how much Jap side loosing with ordering figters in the naval attack while these fighers are needed for the defence (against B-17 in the december 41!) or escort....
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:09 pm
by pauk
ORIGINAL: Feinder
January sees quite a few naval battles vs. PTs. The PTs are 1-4 in Januarly. They sink 1x DD, and lose 9 of their own. Not very remarkable (unless you fixate on the first battle)
Damn, what tragedy for the Allies... sorry but can not help myself.... who needs these low experienced, short legged "ships".. i bet every player would trade even 20 PTs for the one Jap DD...
seriously, just imagine the outcome when Allies starts reciving PTs with 60+ exp and radar.....
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:12 pm
by pauk
ORIGINAL: Feinder
Oops. The "PT menace" are0-2 in February, and lose 2 more of thier own.
Cant help myself again... but do you think you can live without these two PTs?
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:50 pm
by Feinder
Got a turn, it took precedence..
April is another unremarkable month for PTs. Hm. A patter is emerging...?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Akyab at 30,29
Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
DD Shirayuki
DD Matsukaze
Allied Ships
PT PT-36
PT PT-37
PT PT-38
PT PT-40
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Lunga at 67,97
Japanese Ships
PT Gyoraitei #2
PT Gyoraitei #3, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
PT Gyoraitei #4
PT Gyoraitei #5
PT Gyoraitei #6
Allied Ships
DD Dent
DD Kennison
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Lunga at 67,97
Japanese Ships
PT Gyoraitei #2
PT Gyoraitei #4, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
PT Gyoraitei #5, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
PT Gyoraitei #6
Allied Ships
DD Dent
DD Kennison
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Akyab at 30,29
Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma, Shell hits 2
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
Allied Ships
PT PT-36
PT PT-37
PT PT-38
PT PT-40
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Lunga at 67,97
Japanese Ships
PT Gyoraitei #2, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
PT Gyoraitei #5, Shell hits 8, and is sunk
PT Gyoraitei #6, Shell hits 1
Allied Ships
CL Raleigh
CL Marblehead
DD Anderson
DD Hammann
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Baker Island at 94,92
Japanese Ships
CA Maya
CA Myoko
CA Nachi
CA Ashigara
CL Jintsu
CL Kinu
DD Asashio, Shell hits 1
DD Arashio
DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 1
DD Yamagumo
DD Minegumo, Shell hits 3
DD Asagumo
DD Murasame
DD Harusame
DD Yudachi
DD Samidare
DD Suzukaze
DD Ariake
DD Ikazuchi
DD Inazuma
DD Oboro
DD Akebono
DD Sazanami
DD Ushio
DD Kisaragi
Allied Ships
PT PT-20, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT PT-21
PT PT-22, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT PT-23
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:52 pm
by Feinder
Big picture Pauk.
You're guilty of focusing on what you don't like, and ignoring the simple truth.
What's over-all score card?
Something like 25 PTs sunk thus far, in exchange for a DD and an AP?
-F-
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:58 pm
by Bobthehatchit
ORIGINAL: Feinder
Big picture Pauk.
You're guilty of focusing on what you don't like, and ignoring the simple truth.
What's over-all score card?
Something like 25 PTs sunk thus far, in exchange for a DD and an AP?
-F-
The only real beef with PT's is when you get more than two PT boat TF stacked at a base.
Its war shit happens.
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:03 pm
by Feinder
Gotta go pick up chicken wings for the SEC championship.
Will finish this later...
:^)
-F-
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:12 pm
by Andy Mac
Pauk has had a particularily bad experience against me in my game with him - the PT Boats that start in the PI led a charmed life for about 6 weeks and had xp in the 90's it REALLY cost Pauk to take the 8 - 10 PT Boats I had they were especially usefull in finishing off cripples arounf Kendari/Amboina after my heavies and DD's went in. I was severely jammy with them always hitting the unescorted Ak's and MSW's it was great fun !!!!
I think he eventually got them with damn near half the IJN at Timor !!!!
After that we really had no action involving PT's until they started appearing in New Guinea at which point I have radar and upgraded weapon fit outs and decent xp.
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:48 pm
by pauk
ORIGINAL: Feinder
Big picture Pauk.
You're guilty of focusing on what you don't like, and ignoring the simple truth.
What's over-all score card?
Something like 25 PTs sunk thus far, in exchange for a DD and an AP?
-F-
Ok, I'm guilty.... i'm ignoring the simple truth... perhaps when i will calm down and count all my DDs sunk and badly damaged by PTs i will found that i lost only 10-15 DDs for a 80 PTs. Do some math....
Ah, btw, did i mention that PTs are extremely cheap and available in hordes. Same as Japanese DDs.... [8|]
Yes i'm focusing on Surigao strait and 39 PTs - these ships equipped with fine radar really decimated Jap TF.... [8|]... lets talk about ignoring....[8|]
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:53 pm
by niceguy2005
I agree 100% with Feinder's statement that overall PTs aren't nearly as effective as people claim. I'd have to look but in my PBEM I probably lost something like 15-20 while only claiming one DD. I even sent 4 PTs after 3 MSW and all 4 were sunk. [:(]
There are other things to consider:
1. players can drastically reduce any problems PTs cause by eliminating gamey play from their games. Things like 50 PTs in a hex or sending PTs on long range strikes, etc. Create ground rules about where they can be created, etc. IMO when used under realistic circumsatnces they give realistic results.
2. It's all about tactics. I swear I get tired of the JFBs complaining just because some allied player dared make their life a little difficult. I can't recall who it was but some player posted a while ago about how when he sent in 4 DDs to attack 6PTs he would lose a destroyer. He would do this again and again and again. When asked why he didn't strafe the PT boats instead there was no answer. This game is about finding ways to overcome your opponents tactics, not whinning about them.
IMO the PT boat scurge isn't nearly the problem that the UBER Betty/Nell ship hunter/killer is. The idea that Japan had some super weapon that could fly 800+ miles in any direction with massive numbers of torpedos and sink capital ships, sometimes with only 1-2 hits, is pure fantasy. I don't really complain about it though I find a tactic to deal with it.
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:38 pm
by pauk
ok, i gave up... i'm here long enough to know how the things going.... everything what doesn't suite AFB - foul, uber Nells, betties... etc.... a thread with 190 pages, numerous posts with historical examples and "proves", demanding tweaking Uber Japanese etc.....
when, on the other side, Jap player offers arguments, examples from his game, AFB says to him, "not true" ignoring all historical arguments he offered (yes guys, SURIGAO STRAIT, AND PLEASE CAN SOMEONE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION ABOUT THE RADAR ON PTS - doesn't matter, i'm not interested anymore, just want to say that i dont buy empty stories!)
Ok, you are right... but please don't try to start discussion when you find yourself in the position to defend PH, Karachi or Australia.... please[&o]
Oh, yes, do people really reads what is written here...? how to strafe enemy PTs/barges if they are under CAP umbrella?[8|]
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:49 pm
by Feinder
I just get tired of 10% of the people using 1% of the game to make 90% of the noise.
Look at "the other" thread. Is he willing to post EVERY PT action, win or lose? Doubt it. It's just here's 3 actions from one game, where PTs won, and suddenly the whole blanket of PTs is a menace that that destroys Japan. That thread -is- blatently a "JFB thread".
Unlike the "other thread", this one is pure objective evidence. I'm just posting the EVERY PT ACTION OVER THE COURSE OF 8 MONTHS.
You draw your own conclusions. If you still think PTs are over-powered when they show 25 PTs lost thus far, vs. 1x DD and and transport, that's your perrogative. It begs the question of what you would consider balanced? 100 PTs lost to 1x DD? What sort of evidence of this in-game or gawd forbid, historical evidence, can you offer?
-F-
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:54 pm
by ctangus
Late May '43. (May 42 start so about 13 months of war.) I've lost 156 PTs! Mostly to surface action though a few to strafing. My opponent (viberpol) is quite aggressive with surface combat.
Per the ships sunk list, the Mk 8 torp which the PTs carry have sunk 1 DD, 1 MSW, 2 PC & 1 AK. Not on that list, they have also done very well against barges. (They've probably sunk 20 or more.) I don't think anyone would argue that they shouldn't do well against barges.
They've damaged a few ships too. Maybe another half dozen ships (DDs or smaller) were damaged by PTs and later sunk by LBA. I don't remember for sure. They've probably also damaged another 1-2 dozen ships that did survive.
Not counting the barges I'm losing at least 13 PTs (if not 26!) for every ship they help sink in that game.
Different game (my AAR game) - June '42, Dec '41 start. 6 1/2 months of war. I've lost 12 PTs. They've sunk 1 MSW, 1 PC, 2 AK, 2 AP. I'm only losing 2 PTs for every ship they sink. Limited sample size, though, as there hasn't been a lot of combat with PT boats involved.
My impression is that on average PT boat performance is more-or-less realistic. But perhaps the performance is a little too random, resulting in skewed results in some games.
RE: The problem about when folks complain about PTs is
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:56 pm
by Knavey
Now now now...don't get rational bro...stick with the fiction not the facts!
