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I just opened a new campaign (Nik 8.0b) with Lee Hunt last nigth and decided to try something that was discussed by the Japanese High Command regarding the Pearl Harbor attack. With Lee's permission, I decided to try what the Naval Ministry wanted.

I split the KB into two units:

CarDiv1 (Akagi/Kaga) and CarDiv5 (Shokaku/Zuikaku) hit Pearl Harbor (70Z/99V/107K)with everything they had.

AT THE SAME TIME

CarDiv2 (Hiryu/Soryu) and Ryuho hit Manila Bay (11Z/35V/46K).

As many of you know, Nagumo and Yamaguchi wanted to hit PH with all six CVs while there was concern that the Japanese Southern thrust did not have enough airpower. Hiryu/Soryu were the shortest legged CVs and the plan was to leave them for the Southern Operations. Eventually Yamamoto and the Naval General Staff were convinced to make it with the entire KB.

I was curious about this and decided to see what would happen. Would the PH attack be strong enough? What could I gain with Manila Bay attack?

Here are the results:

Pearl Harbor:

I set all DB and TB Daitai on Port Attack and two of four Zero Daitai on Sweep. The Strike consisted of 70Z/99V/107K. The Zeros easily swept away about 25 American fighters in the air.

Attack Results:
BBs
Arizona 2 TT/1 800Kg Bomb/5 250 Kg Bomb--on Fire
Nevada 3 TT/2 800Kg Bomb/6 250Kg Bomb--Heavily Damaged
Oklahoma 1 TT/3 800Kg Bomb--on Fire
Pennsylvania 1 800Kg Bomb/4 250Kg Bomb
California 2 TT/3 800Kg Bomb/7 250Kg Bomb--on Fire
Maryland 2 TT/2 800Kg Bomb/6 250Kg Bomb--Heavily Damaged
West Virginia 2 TT/1 800Kg Bomb/6 250Kg Bomb--on Fire
Tennessee 1 TT/1800Kg Bomb/4 250Kg Bomb--on Fire

CA/CL
New Orleans--1TT, San Fransisco--1 800Kg Bomb, Minneapolis--1TT and 1 800Kg Bomb, Raleigh 1 800Kg Bomb, Honolulu 1 800Kg Bomb

Misc...
2DD, 2 AV, 1 DMS, and 1 MSW all damaged

Allied Planes--36 Fighters, 8 Recon, 3DB, and 6 Bombers

Japanese Losses--1Z, 11 V, and 2K

By what I have seen and done, this raid appears to be an average to good raid on PH. Right? All BBs hit and only one probably operational...nice damage to CA/CL...plus other shipping...

Manila Bay
The strike was 11Z, 35V, 46K who then fought off about 16 P-40s. Raid results:

13 SS Hit by either a bomb or TT--2 sink immediately.

Other Shipping: 6 AK, 1 PG, 1 AP, 1 AO, AV Langley, and 2PT (both sunk)

Losses were only 4 Kates.


I consider two Port Strikes to be gamey but weakening the the PH Attack in exchange for this appears to be realistic. ALL other Japanese bombing missions were hitting AF throughout the Philippines and Malaysia.

So...who was right? Yamaguchi or the the Navy Ministry? [:D]

Both.

For an attrition strategy, Yamaguchi was correct.

However, Japan was certain to LOSE, using an attrition strategy.
The ONLY way, Japan could win, was throwing the bomb.

A very high risk/ high payoff campaign to try and win it fast.

Anything less is slow death.

Even losing the Isuzu was a defeat for Japan.

If you never TRY to get the big win, you wont get it.

IMHO the assumption that the Japanese would benefit from surprise in the PI several hours after their attack at PH (time zone difference) is faulty.  That IRL they did achieve it is irrelevant.  In the planning stage an assumption that surprise would be achieved in the PI would have been almost criminal.  In the game I have found almost no difference between the results with surprise ON or OFF so for the game there is no risk.
 
Another item of note is that the Ryujo (nor any of the other small IJN CVs in 1941) was not really on a par with any of the real KB in terms of flight operations or the training/competence of its air group.  Its B5Ns were used exclusively as level bombers IRL, apparently in part because its crew was unable to maintain such torpedos as it carried.  The main reason that all the IJN small carriers carried Kates was not so that they would be useful in antishipping missions but because the Val required a bigger elevator and more hangar space due to its (almost) non-folding wings (a much smaller jointed segment due to the high aerodynamic stresses experienced in dive-bombing).  Even though it was similar in size to the Kate it took up more space because of this foible (Shattered Sword remarks on this obscure fact and its effect on IJN air group composition). 

A couple of thoughts about your strike, starting with the strictly game oriented comment. I would not consider the Manilla Bay attack a success becuase, so far, only 2 subs were sunk. Subs early in the game are not much more than a bother to the IJN, so forcing them to go home to repair won't be much of a major blow. With the ports repair facilities and damage control team capabilities on the subs, I doubt you will sink many more, without a second attack.

On to the more historical comment. My understanding (which is limited) is that Japan used all 6 carriers in the strike because of the long distance to the target and their desire to maximize damage, but also to provide maximum protection for the strike force. Remember that the KB was carrier hunting when it sailed for PH and while they hoped to achieve surprise and catch the carriers at port, surprise was not guaranteed and there was no guarantee that the carriers would be at port. A worse case scenario for Japan might have been 3 US carriers waiting off PH. A duel near PH at anything even approaching even odds would probably not have gone well for Japan. Splitting the KB up while knowing that in the game US carriers won't be a factor in the first day is a little bit gamey IMHO.

By the way John, how are things in LaSalle? I went to school at Northern Colorado.

Has anyone ever tried to split KB to attack both Manila and Singapore as part of what some in the Japanese Navy wanted and skipped the Pearl Harbor attack?? 
If there is an AAR on this, please post a link.
Thanks!

Thanks for the thoughts.  I was simply curious as to what players felt.
 
NiceGuy--The total has risen to 5SS now (Dec 10th).  Since I damaged 13 subs they cannot get out of Manila safely.  After my opening attack, I have split my Betty's between Clark and Manila Bay.  SEEMS to be working.  Any subs I can sink there will not be a thorn in my side starting in 1943!  (Trying to think ahead...)
 
La Salle is A OK!  Greeley was national news today with that ICE raid at the packing plant.  I went to UNC for 10 years and am an addjunct faculty there now.  Small world.  What was your major?
 
Hey NYGiants!  I haven't tried it.  I feel like I MUST take a swing at PH.
 
Lee has taken a screen shot that he will send me of the PH ship damage.  Whenever I get it, I will post it here.
 
 

Well from what i see here i only saw a better result at Pearl once... i lost 3 BB's to the 1st attack[X(][:@] as for those sub's well if they go to West coast or whatever they will not be laying mines around DEI and belive me the S-Class boats torpedos are not that faulty... but i don't think any reasanable player will allow more then one port attack on turn one[;)] as for Reality in the Phillipines in 1941... the USAAF was wiped out not becouse of suprise but becouse of incompetent command and bad luck. The bomber commander wanted to attack Jap Airfields on Formosa but neither McArthur didn' allow that... the fighters were set on CAP but it happened that when they landed to refuel they were attacked. And this was coused by bad weather over Formosa wich prevented jap planes on lunching on time. If the weather was good the Jap's would be meet by P-40's in the air... the result would be probably the same but it would be at least that the USAAF put up a fight.

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Has anyone ever tried to split KB to attack both Manila and Singapore as part of what some in the Japanese Navy wanted and skipped the Pearl Harbor attack??
If there is an AAR on this, please post a link.
Thanks!

Sneer did that against Raverdave.

tm.asp?m=988842

John, 5 subs is a good deal and if you can hang around to finish off another 5 then I would say definitely a good deal.

I did catch the news about the raid in Greeley. I can't say I'm surprised about the raid. My girlfriend and I passed through Greeley last summer. It was the first time I had been back in about 10 years. It wasn't looking quite as prosperous as it did in the early 90's. What are your thoughts? Are things going ok up there economically?

I attended UNC from 86-90 and majored in physics. I actually selected UNC thinking that I was going to major in english lit, but decided I really enjoyed eating too much to give it up. [;)] So went for my second favorite subject.

I have a second cousin there now who is a professor in the physics department. What subject do you teach? When did you attend?

Add two more SS on Dec 11, 1941!  I've reached seven for Manila Bay.  Rock solid effort!
 
NiceGuy--Greeley is booming.  There are 1,000s of houses being built (no BS!),  We have no water in this state so LETS BUILD HOUSES!  I've been here since I started college at UNC in 1984.  Went to UNC from 1984-1991 and came back from 1996-98 for my MA in History.  Have taught HS nine years and college (Community College and at UNC) for ten.
 
I choose History for love and REALLY could have chosen something else (like you did) for FOOD!
 

I'm glad someone is choosing the field of history. It's a very important subject, in particular in HS

Final tally--Manila is now empty of shipping (most of them are on the bottom of the harbor [:D])--10 Subs sunk. All ten are modern SS--not S-Boats--and will not be used in the name of the Imperialist Americans!

Nice Guy
I love the field and I love teaching HS kids; however, I have given up and left that area of education. I have run into so many Ivory Tower--don't know what the REAL world is--types that I got out. Education is (generally) a bastion of dewey-eyed, liberal educators who want to do RIGHT but, generally, have issues knowing HOW to accomplish it. Sorry--bit of a tirade--If I had my drothers, I would still be teaching at the level.

Now, I teach Comunity College on Tues-Thurs and will return to UNC in the Fall as a fulltime Adjunct working on M-W-F. Between the two schools, I will be in good shape for my family (wife, 3 year-old son, and 4 month-old) and can relax a little.

Perhaps do more postings here...

Now 10 subs sunk is certainly a victory. Godd job