Matrix Games Forums

I have a problem attaching a fourth corps to the Army of the Potomac. The AOTP has 3 corps already attached, but wll not accept a fourth. According to the manual, this shouldn't be a problem. Any ideas?

You probably are maxed out on manpower or divisions.  An army can accept only a total of 8 corps *OR* 35 divisions *OR* 140,000 men.   So even if you have only three corps attached, if you are at 120,000 men, you can't attach another corps with 30,000 men.

ORIGINAL: jsaurman

You probably are maxed out on manpower or divisions.  An army can accept only a total of 8 corps *OR* 35 divisions *OR* 140,000 men.   So even if you have only three corps attached, if you are at 120,000 men, you can't attach another corps with 30,000 men.

Is there a way to mod these limits, or will that make the game unstable?

The limits are moddable. I have done it. The limits are set by number of Brigades that can be in each container ( not that I can see anywhere, by number of subcontainers).

I suggest if you change one sides numbers you change the other as well. The US is set for 5 brigades a Division, 15 brigades ( I believe) a Corps and 34 brigades an Army. The Confederates are a little higher on all 3 numbers.

Gah I forget the file right now to mod. they are all in Data though and can be modified by notepad or a better program.

I only play Union, and those limits I quoted were from one of my armies in the current game.  I don't think different armies have different quotas, or do they?
I haven't modded anything.
 
JIM

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

The limits are moddable. I have done it. The limits are set by number of Brigades that can be in each container ( not that I can see anywhere, by number of subcontainers).

I suggest if you change one sides numbers you change the other as well. The US is set for 5 brigades a Division, 15 brigades ( I believe) a Corps and 34 brigades an Army. The Confederates are a little higher on all 3 numbers.

Gah I forget the file right now to mod. they are all in Data though and can be modified by notepad or a better program.

Another totally unhistoric constraint on the union side. It's like limiting an essex class carrier to 50 planes in a WW II game to give the japanese a chance.

Well no, it's actually historic; the CSA divs and corps tended to contain one extra sub unit, on average, than their Union counterparts.  This was a consequence of each sides intrinsic organizational doctrines.

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Well no, it's actually historic; the CSA divs and corps tended to contain one extra sub unit, on average, than their Union counterparts.  This was a consequence of each sides intrinsic organizational doctrines.

Confederate corps and divisions were on average larger than union ones but armies were not. In only one major battle in the entire war did a confederate army outnumber a union army and that was when Longstreet reinforced Bragg at Chickamauga. It impossible to create an Army of the Potomac that is equal in size to the historic one in this game.

I forgot to add that confederate brigades were almost always smaller than union brigades in the war.

A theoretical army limit of "8 corps *OR* 35 divisions *OR* 140,000 men" seems to me would hold the AoP.  Right?

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

A theoretical army limit of "8 corps *OR* 35 divisions *OR* 140,000 men" seems to me would hold the AoP.  Right?

The last time I checked 3,000 times 35 equaled 105,000.

ORIGINAL: chris0827

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

A theoretical army limit of "8 corps *OR* 35 divisions *OR* 140,000 men" seems to me would hold the AoP.  Right?

The last time I checked 3,000 times 35 equaled 105,000.

[&:] Brigades are 3000. Divisions tend to be somewhat larger, usually.[:D]

Actually, no, I think I might have been mistaken...I was copying the 35 Divisions reference from someone else above...but looking the files I am beginning to think it IS actually 35 Brigades as a limit...
 
That being the case (?) then yeah, it makes sense to boost that number for the Union to 50...maybe allow then a ~150K man AoP that way.

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Actually, no, I think I might have been mistaken...I was copying the 35 Divisions reference from someone else above...but looking the files I am beginning to think it IS actually 35 Brigades as a limit...

That being the case (?) then yeah, it makes sense to boost that number for the Union to 50...maybe allow then a ~150K man AoP that way.

It is brigades but I think the manual says divisions.

I did some digging into the Battle of Gettysburg and came up with the following numbers for the AoP and ANV.

AoP in game terms would have had:
1 Army container
8 Corps containers (including 1 Cavalry Corps)
23 Division containers (including 1 Artillery Division at the Army level - the "Arty Res")
75 Brigades or equivalents (I looked at artillery Battalions as equivalent to a FoF Brigade)
I forgot to write the total strength down, but I believe it was ~125,000.

ANV in game terms would have had:
1 Army container
4 Corps containers (including 1 Cavalry Corps)
9 Division containers
60 Brigades or equivalents
Same mistake for strength, ~95,000.

As you can see the AoP had many more containers, but not that many more Brigades or troops overall. The USA Corps and Divisions tended to be smaller than their CSA counterparts.

Recommend the group limits be changed to the following:
USA
Army container - 10 units (Corps, Division, or directly attached Brigade) with a max of 8 Corps per
Corps container - 5 units (Division or directly attached Brigade) with a max of 3 Division per
Division container - max of 4 Brigades
Total # of troops - 150,000

CSA
Army container - 6 units (Corps, Division, or directly attached Brigade) with a max of 5 Corps per
Corps container - 8 units (Division or directly attached Brigade) with a max of 4 Division per
Division container - max of 6 Brigades
Total # of troops - 120,000

I think this will give more of the historical organization people are asking for, but maintain some flexibility for the player to work with.

Doc

One quick question? Where and when did you find a Confederate Army of 120,000? Wouldn't 90,000 be more correct? The South's real "organization" advantage seems to have been in needing fewer commanders within their armies because their sub-units could hold more---thus allowing them to pick and choose for leadership quality better. Though even that wasn't always the case..., some of the Union Corps at Chancelorsville were quite a large as anything the Rebels every fielded.

The game does NOT actually limit containers inside containers. The limit is based solely on brigades. Or at least that is my experience. I can put 4 divisions in a Corps now as the US as long as I dont exceed the brigade count, havent found a need to put 5 divisions inside a corps yet. Rule states 3 Divisions max in a Corps for the US.

And when one checks the file with the listed limits all you find is one number which would seem to be Brigades.

It's true there's no strength limit per se, just a brigade limit.  (The incidental strength limit follows from the brigade limit...)

With regards to total strength, I intentionally increased the amounts found in the ACW in order to give the player an ability to do things slightly ahistorical. That is why I recommended a cap on the Union at 150,000. Also over historical numbers by a small margin.

The rest of my suggestions seem to be mute given ericbabe's admission that the only other cap is Brigades.