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Graycompany please don't read this thread.
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I am planning a "must not fail" offensive operation. Phase I of this operation requires crossing a river to attack a Div+ in a non-base hex. This force needs to get across the river and force the retreat of the enemy in a single combat phase (1 turn, the turn they cross the river). There will be no time to rest and attack again. I have a good idea of the enemies troop levels and the terrain effects.

My biggest question is that these units (the defenders) have been sitting for a while, thus may have built forts up to level 4 (I'm planning for the worst). What affect will this have on the attacker's or defender's assault values?

Also, will combat engineers help take down a fort in a non-base hex like they do in a base hex?

I know crossing a river is an automatic shock attack and that the attacker's disruption level will go up considerably. Any ideas by how much disruption is raised?

Maximum planning and prep has to go into the op, because it absolutely positively can't fail.

Well, I have found that alot of combat outside a base hex is extremely brutal. Heck I had the 2 PI divisions that start in Naga fall back one hex and dig in and I wrecked 4 divisions trying to push them back. I was bombarding them, airstrikes, naval bombardments and everything for well over a month and a half. I finally had to take Manila and then move south to beat them. But 4 divisions were wrecked (all averaged 100 AS each) and took almost 6 months to rebuild.
 
Are you Allied or Japan? Either way, I would use a million airstrikes on the unit in question. Anything that does 300 or more casualties per turn for about a month and then hit them. There is still a chance that you will not kick them out in a single turn. The auto shock attack can be very brutal. Engineers do not do diddly outside of a base except take huge losses.

Well that's not very encouraging 2ndACR. [:D] Your supposed to tell me "no problem"[:D] The general didn't like that advise at all. [:-]

You are probably right. The problem is, I have been hitting with airstrikes for about a month, but to keep the actual point of attack secret I have been spreading the attacks out all along the 4 hex front line. He has the ability to move a lot of reinforcement in quickly so the actual point of attack has to be kept top-secret. If I concentrate the air power he is going to know exactly where I am attacking.

Would you want me to lie to you? I am giving you the honest truth.[:D]
 
 What date? Who are you (allied or Japan)? And what do you think you are facing (division, brigade etc)?

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

I am planning a "must not fail" offensive operation. Phase I of this operation requires crossing a river to attack a Div+ in a non-base hex. This force needs to get across the river and force the retreat of the enemy in a single combat phase (1 turn, the turn they cross the river). There will be no time to rest and attack again. I have a good idea of the enemies troop levels and the terrain effects.

It would depend a bit on how much you're bringing to the party. I once forced my opponent back the first day in a river-crossing shock attack. That was a while ago, but IIRC I had roughly 4 divs attacking a single enemy division that had already suffered a couple forced retreats and didn't have time to dig in much.

Unless you're using a huge force, I don't think it would be safe to assume that you'll succeed on the first day.

In one of my games I'm about to send 4000+ AV in a river-crossing against 2 divisions. I might take it on the first day (I do have an overwhelming force), but my planning is assuming that I won't.

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Would you want me to lie to you? I am giving you the honest truth.[:D]

No, I was kidding. I know it is going to be a tough op, if even possible, but somehow I have to make it possible.

The date is Oct 42. I am the Allies and it is the UK attacking across the Gangees. I have a total of about 2,800 assault points assembled (I might be able to scrape together 300-400 more), plus combat engineers and ART. The complete mission requires crossing the river, with part of the force remaining to block reinforcements (about 2/3) while the rest of the force marches on and takes a base. I had better complere the entire op in less than 10 days or reinforcements will arrive. My preference is to attack with just enough troops to ensure (yeah right) the retreat of the enemy. Then the next day the remaining force could cross without the disruption penalty.

I face a choice of attacking the 55th Div and 2nd Arm Rgt in the woods, or the 5th Div, one other Jap Div and an Arm Rgt in a clear hex. The enemy probably has at least 2-3 other divisions in the area, plus significant ART and some light INF. I have fairly uncontested control of the air with enough fighters to keep it that way.

Dedicated Recon and Bombers have been attacking the entire Japanese front line for at least a month so detection levels should be high, but I can only manage about 300-400 casaulties per day across the entire line (4 hexes).

This op is going to get very bloody very quickly and the loser is going to be in bad shape, at least in that theater.

One option I am comtemplating is sending 3 Chinese Divs across on day 1. They will get slaughtered but might raise the disruption of the enemy. Then day 2 I could send the main force. Only his armor could react and move in a single day. The Inf will take 2 days to move 1 hex. The trick is that I have to beat out his reinforcments.

Roughly...

Fort(0) = 100% AV
Fort(1) = 125% AV
Fort(2) = 150% AV
Fort(3) = 175% AV
Fort(5) = 200% AV
Fort(6) = 225% AV
Fort(7) = 250% AV
Fort(8) = 275% AV
Fort(9) = 300% AV

-F-

The woods will bump up his defense rating a bunch. I would pound the 2 divisions in the clear and send everything across the day after the Chinese cross over. Then beat the crud out of them.
 
Clear hex is much better than a wooded hex. For you the attacker anyway.

Thanks Feinder. I noticed you skipped fort (4). I'm going to assume that was an accident and that it is roughly 200%

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Roughly...

Fort(0) = 100% AV
Fort(1) = 125% AV
Fort(2) = 150% AV
Fort(3) = 175% AV
Fort(5) = 200% AV
Fort(6) = 225% AV
Fort(7) = 250% AV
Fort(8) = 275% AV
Fort(9) = 300% AV

-F-

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

The woods will bump up his defense rating a bunch. I would pound the 2 divisions in the clear and send everything across the day after the Chinese cross over. Then beat the crud out of them.

Clear hex is much better than a wooded hex. For you the attacker anyway.

According to the manual woods and jungle mean defenders are x2, which sort of makes it a wash. The clear hex is better in the sense that it is on the flank of his defensive line, so if I take it and roll his flank back it will be much easier for me to hold, rather than punching through in the center. However, one advantage to the center hex is that only having one unit, I could concentrate my bombers there the last couple of days before I attack and hopefully cause additional disruption to that one unit.

Make sure your units are set to follow so they all cross the river at the smae time.

If that unit has been sitting there a while it will have lvl 4 forts but should have some fat/disruption due to being outside a base and probably short on support units. If this is a malaria zone this might be quite high.

Can't get more than level 3 in a non-base hex by my understanding. I've personally never been able to entrench better than 2 fort levels in a non-base hex.

You are going to have a darn tough time against those the crack 5th div, plus another div and an ARM unit. Seriously tough time.

So Mynok, your suggestion is to go after the 55th Div in the woods?

If you’ve had good recon, and have a fair idea of the number of troops, a “fair” estimate of the base AV of an enemy stack is: (Number of Troops / 30)

Why?

Because you need 1 support squad (20 troops) for every combat squad (10 troops).

6000 troops will –likely- be made up of –roughly-

2000 combat troops = 200 combat squads (AV of 200)
4000 support troops = 200 support squads

It’s a fair ball park number to work with, that you should THEN adjust by:
What is his supply situation? What is the terrain? How long has he been there?


Other things that affect your AV

Terrain
-------
Clear, Farmland, Atoll = 100%
Woods = 200%
Swamp = 300%
Mountains, Urban = 400%



Prep Level
----------
100% + Prep Level
So, 50 prep points = roughly 150% AV.
Only applicable if in the hex that the LCU is in, is designated as the objected hex.



Supply
------
Greater than or equal to supply needs = 100% AV
2/3 supply needs = 75% AV
1/3 supply needs = 50% AV
0 supply = 25% AV



Corps HQ
--------
110% AV
The prep level of the HQ might matter.
It might only be applicable the target hex, is the objective of the HQ.
Prep of the HQ may be completely irrelevant, it may just give the bonus if the HQ is present in the hex.
I have not formally tested, but I believe the HQ need only be present, and the prep of the HQ doesn't matter.



Command HQ
----------
190% AV
The prep level of the HQ might matter.
It might only be applicable the target hex, is the objective of the HQ.
Prep of the HQ may be completely irrelevant, it may just give the bonus if the HQ is within command range of the hex.
The command range is actually one LESS than that posted on the info screen.
I have not formally tested, but I believe the HQ need only be within range, and the prep of the HQ doesn't matter.



Support Percentage
------------------
Support Squads / Combat Squads = Percent AV, but not over 100%.
So 100 combat squads with only 80 support squads = 80% AV.
So 100 combat squads with 120 support squads = 100% AV (not 120%).
Yes Virginia, you –do- need support squads.



Disablements
------------
Observationally, it –appears- that a disabled squad lends about 1/2 towards a total.
So a unit with:
6 active combat squads
4 disabled combat squads
5 active support squads
4 disabled support squads
Would have (5 + 4/2) / (6 + 4/2) = 87.5% AV



Disruption
-------------------
Roughly (100 – Disruption) = AV percentage.
So a unit with 40 disruption, will be at about a 60% of it’s AV.
Disruption can hurt a LOT.



Fatigue, Morale, Experience
---------------------------
I’ve actually been surprised, but –OBSERVATIONALLY- (and limited testing), I have not seen that these have that great an impact on a unit’s AV. Yes, there is some impact. But not to the dramatic minus 40% you can see by disruption. I’m surprised that Experience does NOT seem to have a major impact on AV (by observation). I –do- think that experience –may- impact how quickly one recovers disruption. Just as fatigue and morale –may- impact how quickly one (does not) recover disruption. The inability or slowness to recover disruption, would impact your AV. Maybe a higher exp unit recovers disruption faster, or suffers LESS disruption with each attack (than a less experienced or more fatigued opponent). This would affect their AV over the period of time.

Feinder, great run down, thanks.

At the moment recon shows 21,160 troops. So, applying your formula (which makes a lot of sense), There is 21,160/30 = 705.3

Modify that by the terrain bonus 705.3*2 = 1410.6

Supply is probably at 100%, but I have been blocking off resupply so it could be less.

The unit is not in a base hex in a malaria zone so I'm going to assume that fatigue is high and with the bombin disruption may be as high 10%...implies 1410.6*0.9=1296.6

Since combat is occuring in a non-base hex prep points are not relevant.

Disablement is probably around 5% not really significant enough to factor.

No Corp HQ is likely to be in range, but there is probably a command HQ in range, which means 1296.6*1.1 = 1410.6

Looks like my 2800 AV could be enough to force retreat, but I won't have much left to attack the base.

I am assigning III Corp to command the river crossing units and the Burma Corp to taking the base. Both commands are very well commanded.

It still looks touch and go.

So Mynok, your suggestion is to go after the 55th Div in the woods?

They look like similar targets to me because of the woods bonus. Since I'm with Feinder on what morale and experience does (improves disruption recovery and reduces disruption from combat), my memory recalls the 55th as being a decent div but the 5th is definitely a crack division.

Also, since there is only one main unit in the woods, every disrupted assault point is actually two AV points gone. In addition, the woods will help your troops against counterattacks.

Either is going to be a tough nut, but I usually will pick numerically inferior positions, even if more difficult to attack. It's the nature of the Witp land engine (what we know about it at least).

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Maximum planning and prep has to go into the op, because it absolutely positively can't fail.

If there is a slight chance if will fail, then it will fail. [:'(]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Can't get more than level 3 in a non-base hex by my understanding.

Not so, I've seen up to level five.

edit: I just realized this is ancient [:o]