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Playing Style in BG or HPS

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:16 pm
by rhondabrwn
Just to pass the time (and keep this forum looking busy in anticipation of the BG release)...

As I've stated previously, while I may be very experienced with these games, that experience has been obtained by playing solitaire against myself (or for a laugh, against the AI).

I was reflecting last night as I played a couple of turns on the Wilderness Beta, about how bloody my battles seem to always turn out. Once the battle lines come together, they tend to stay locked in combat - firing at each other on each phase - until units start to rout and one side's line collapses. This actually makes the Civil War play like the Western Front in WWI!

Now realistically, the lines should be about a hex apart with perhaps an occasional probing attack or artillery sniping occasionally (another problem, the artillery has way too much ammo in these games so they can fire indiscriminately and constantly). In a 12 hour "day" of battle, there should be a couple of major attacks, behind the lines shifting of units and reorganization of positions, and lots of turns with very little apparently going on that the opponents can see.

I have to confess that my games just always turn into a bloody slugfest despite my best intentions to play more realistically.

So... what about you real players out there? What do your games look like against a real opponent?

How could the games be improved to "force" players into a more realistic mode of operation?

I'm thinking that perhaps units that hit a certain fatigue level just no longer be able to fight except defensive fire and defense against melee. It is unrealistic to be able to put a unit with a 9 level fatigue rating into an assult (yea, I know they are penalized in combat effectiveness, but they shouldn't be able to attack in the first place!). These guys are supposed to be falling down exhausted, demoralized, scared... let's just accurately reflect that and force players to think twice before committing their units into extended fire exchanges or assaults.

Opinions?

RE: Playing Style in BG or HPS

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:54 pm
by oldspec4
I do not play against a real opponent due to the time involved. But as a long time player of the BG games (and limited HPS Vicksburg play) against the AI, I definitely would like to see AI improvements as you suggest. BTW, I have used many of the games to supplement my learning of map/unit details prior to actually doing a "staff ride" of the battlefield.

RE: Playing Style in BG or HPS

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:56 pm
by Caranorn
I only played the Napoleonic BG games against others (email), all my otehr gaming experience with BG is hotseat-solo or against the ai.

Anyhow, those games against another human player seemed to go more slowly, more careful marching (particularly flanking attempts trying to stay out of sight of the enemy, placing cavalry detachments on hills for spotting etc.), small breaks between actual fighting. Once contact was made in a particular place fighting would generally be brief but very brutal (two to three turns till one side routed en masse or withdrew temporarily). Fatigue was very important as I regularly had regiemnts that had been exposed too long to artillery fire would rout immediatelly once contact with enemy infantry or cavalry was made. I definitelly never saw lines firing on one another for prolonged times (even with english style battalions I can't seem to recall a situation where a force woudl stay in the firing line for more then two turns). Most artillery fire was long range, so ammunition realism was not as big an issue (limited effect though a badly placed batallion could receive significant fatigue over a number of turns).

I think the major difference between play against the ai and play against a human player is the surprise factor and the added caution to avoid getting surprised. The shock of contact could also at times seem real (when after a number of turns of manoeuvring and long range shelling two forces would come together in a violent clash for two or three turns and one would simply rout away (and in the worst case throw your reserves into disorder)).

The game I enjoyed most was one where my opponent tried a flanking manouver with the French at Ligny and where my cavalry picket had reported his movement early on. I managed to transfer various units in such a way to lay ambush on his column. This was the only time I managed to perfectly coordinate a battle. First letting him stumble into a single regiment (3-4 battalions) of veteran line infantry to stop his advance. Then charge a cavalry brigade (several regiments, split into squadrons) into both flanks of the now deployed French. His attempted counter-attack at first seemed to work as my line regiment had to fall back and the now immobile cavalry received a mauling. What he had not counted on was that I had two more infantry regiments (lesser quality) lying in ambush as well as reserve squadrons of that same cavalry. These now charged the French center and right and led to a complete collapse of his left flank (I had good vision of the field of battle from my picket posts while he could not see into a number of ravines and across fields my units had been hiding in). Within three or four turns his carefully planned flank attack had been halted and then destroyed (several batallions were captured or routed and surrounded), I even ended up capturing his hastily deployed artillery and iirc mauled the cavalry brought up to cover his withdrawal. So in only four turns or so I broke his moral and he conceded me a major victory (this was a tournament game, until then he had won everytime), that despite the fact that I had only mauled a detached force of his (maybe two divisions) and that my center was not faring all that well. It was the sheer shock of contact that brought me that victory.

I think ACW BG should be pretty similar, though the armies are of course quite different. Surprising the ai is not hard to do, getting surprised by the ai is almost impossible (I'd say impossible), against a human player this is entirely different which leads to added caution on both sides, but sucessful dares can lead to exceptional sucess.

RE: Playing Style in BG or HPS

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:23 pm
by rhondabrwn
ORIGINAL: Caranorn

I only played the Napoleonic BG games against others (email), all my otehr gaming experience with BG is hotseat-solo or against the ai.

Anyhow, those games against another human player seemed to go more slowly, more careful marching (particularly flanking attempts trying to stay out of sight of the enemy, placing cavalry detachments on hills for spotting etc.), small breaks between actual fighting. Once contact was made in a particular place fighting would generally be brief but very brutal (two to three turns till one side routed en masse or withdrew temporarily). Fatigue was very important as I regularly had regiemnts that had been exposed too long to artillery fire would rout immediatelly once contact with enemy infantry or cavalry was made. I definitelly never saw lines firing on one another for prolonged times (even with english style battalions I can't seem to recall a situation where a force woudl stay in the firing line for more then two turns). Most artillery fire was long range, so ammunition realism was not as big an issue (limited effect though a badly placed batallion could receive significant fatigue over a number of turns).

I think the major difference between play against the ai and play against a human player is the surprise factor and the added caution to avoid getting surprised. The shock of contact could also at times seem real (when after a number of turns of manoeuvring and long range shelling two forces would come together in a violent clash for two or three turns and one would simply rout away (and in the worst case throw your reserves into disorder)).

The game I enjoyed most was one where my opponent tried a flanking manouver with the French at Ligny and where my cavalry picket had reported his movement early on. I managed to transfer various units in such a way to lay ambush on his column. This was the only time I managed to perfectly coordinate a battle. First letting him stumble into a single regiment (3-4 battalions) of veteran line infantry to stop his advance. Then charge a cavalry brigade (several regiments, split into squadrons) into both flanks of the now deployed French. His attempted counter-attack at first seemed to work as my line regiment had to fall back and the now immobile cavalry received a mauling. What he had not counted on was that I had two more infantry regiments (lesser quality) lying in ambush as well as reserve squadrons of that same cavalry. These now charged the French center and right and led to a complete collapse of his left flank (I had good vision of the field of battle from my picket posts while he could not see into a number of ravines and across fields my units had been hiding in). Within three or four turns his carefully planned flank attack had been halted and then destroyed (several batallions were captured or routed and surrounded), I even ended up capturing his hastily deployed artillery and iirc mauled the cavalry brought up to cover his withdrawal. So in only four turns or so I broke his moral and he conceded me a major victory (this was a tournament game, until then he had won everytime), that despite the fact that I had only mauled a detached force of his (maybe two divisions) and that my center was not faring all that well. It was the sheer shock of contact that brought me that victory.

I think ACW BG should be pretty similar, though the armies are of course quite different. Surprising the ai is not hard to do, getting surprised by the ai is almost impossible (I'd say impossible), against a human player this is entirely different which leads to added caution on both sides, but sucessful dares can lead to exceptional sucess.

Thanks for the input! That's the way I'd like to be able to play a solitaire game actually, but I agree with you that the ai is never going to make the kind of moves or reactions that you describe. I guess it comes down to having to play PBEM if you want any kind of realistic experience.

I have played PTW a bit and have a HPS Waterloo Campaign game in progress, but can't say that I'm very experienced. I would agree from what I have seen, the Napoleonic games do not have the lines locked into battle the way the Civil War games do.

The thing about the game mechanics is that you almost feel an obligation to "shoot" at every unit within range even if at extreme range. If you don't, the ai will still be shooting at you with every available unit and will eventually win through attrition (casualty points) rather than by seizure of objectives.

Possible solutions:

Much higher point values for objective hexes

Lower point values for inflicting casualties (except for high value officers, artillery, and cavalry).

Prevent high fatigue units from attacking or using offensive fire. Replace the 9 level BG fatigue system with a 900 point system to allow a more gradual deterioration of the unit's abilities.

Reduce the effectiveness of rifle/musket fire at higher levels of fatigue.

In general, make forcing fatigued units to fight a losing proposition that is very obvious to the player trying to force them into an attack.

Make fatigue recovery predictable with fatigue being reduced by a certain number of points for each turn that a unit does not move, fire, or melee. Eliminate the luck factor for fatigue recovery. Presence of an officer or being within command radius of a major commander (division, corps, army) might enhance fatigue recovery.

Eliminate the random nature of units running out of ammunition and replace it with a value for a certain number of rounds of firing before resupply is required.

Eliminate the "pool of artillery ammunition" and require artillery to expend ordinance just like other units (and require them to withdraw to a supply train to replenish). Add separate values to supply units to reflect infantry and artillery ammunition available.

Do not allow units to resupply within a certain range of enemy units... force a withdrawal back to a supply wagon and not allow supply trains to come within close range of the front line. Make supply wagons much more vulnerable to artillery fire.

Note: I have to confess that I've never seen any detailed description of what resupply was like during an ACW battle. I'm assuming that the old supply wagon doesn't just drive up to your unit and unload, but I'm also not sure that there weren't "Ammo bearers" that made the trip over to the supply train to bring back resupply. My thought might be that units have a "resupply" option that would simulate the detachment of 1/4 of their strength to go get ammunition. The number of turns these men would be unavailable to fight would depend on how distant the supply train was located. This would also allow units being mustered for an attack to resupply BEFORE they were at risk of running out of ammo. There is nothing like having a fresh unit go into an attack and then end up "low ammo" after firing one time the way the current system works.

I think adding the above would make for a more realistic gaming experience. Modifications to the game interface would be minimal while the effect on game play would be great.

What do y'all think?

RE: Playing Style in BG or HPS

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:55 am
by 1NWCG
Some of those problems are solved by using the scenario editor.  Others would have to be game engine edits.  The AI will never be good. They are scripted basic prompts for it to follow and is not that good.  Human players are the best to play as they don't do the dumb things the AI does.  It also lends a real feeling to the otherside.  People are more careful when playing but the bloodshed can be quite costly, especially if they know how to ZOC kill. That is the amazing eye opener, having someone who is good at the games destroy the Anglo-Allied Army in 6 turns at Waterloo, trust me I have seen it.
 
That's why there are normally house or player agreed rules to make it much more historic, because many historic elements are hard to place into an engine.
 
I've played humans for almost 4 years now, and its fun. I suggest folks give it a try.