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I also received an OOB book on the British Army in the Far East from Osprey Books yesterday in the mail. Now I'm looking at some of the British and Indian units which are in CHS and it actually looks like many of the Indian Divisions are considerably understrength. Many of the Indian Divisions in CHS are more like brigade size. According to the book I'm using it looks like they should be the size of regular divisions. So far the 14th, 19th and 20th Indian Divisions seem to be grossly under represented in the game. I'm still checking on others.

[Edit] Also arrival dates seem to be misrepresented in places, some Divs arriving prematurely and some arriving too late.

Unfortunately there is no mention of the local Indian militias which I put together in my mod. I assume they did exist however as shown on www.niehorster.orbat.com. [&:]

The divisions operate differently 14th and 17th are to hard to set up as divisions because that many Bdes operate through them
 
In total there should about 51 Bde equivalents of offensive Indian army troops spread between Divs and Bdes in India/Burma and Malaya throughout the war.
 
The problem with an Indian ORBAT is that Bdes move between Divs so any ORBAT is not going to be a best estimate not accurate without a withdrawal function.
 
In general you should be aiming for 27 Bdes including the 6 in Malaya and 4 in Burma excluding frontier forces at start
 
I normally split the 17 at start Bdes in India as follows 50 Para Bde, 7th Indian Div (1/3), 19th Indian Div (1/3), 20th Indian Div (2/3), 20th Indian Div (2/3), 23rd/36th/44th/45th/46th/48th/63rd/98th/99th/100th Indian Bdes
 
On top of that if you have slots you should have c 10 Indian Frontier Force Bdes incl Bannu/Razmak/Wana/3rd/ Khojak/ Korhat/Thal/Peshawar and Zhob
 
If you are short of slots a number of the FF Bdes can be amalgamated with the Forts
 
Andy

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I also received an OOB book on the British Army in the Far East from Osprey Books yesterday in the mail. Now I'm looking at some of the British and Indian units which are in CHS and it actually looks like many of the Indian Divisions are considerably understrength. Many of the Indian Divisions in CHS are more like brigade size. According to the book I'm using it looks like they should be the size of regular divisions. So far the 14th, 19th and 20th Indian Divisions seem to be grossly under represented in the game. I'm still checking on others.

[Edit] Also arrival dates seem to be misrepresented in places, some Divs arriving prematurely and some arriving too late.

Unfortunately there is no mention of the local Indian militias which I put together in my mod. I assume they did exist however as shown on www.niehorster.orbat.com. [&:]

Hi,

there was no Indian militia. Pre-war, there were some territorial battalions that existed (at least as paper-formations) as part of Indian regiments. But if I remember correctly, all territorial battalions were mobilized in September 1941.

The Niehorster OOB for India is of September 1939 and does not tell much about 1941 and later, it only shows the organization of the Indian Army before it was mobilized (the on-paper peace-time organization).

The only "named" brigades that still existed in 1941 were the frontier brigades in the NW tribal districts.

K

K

Aye the FF Bdes had normal Inf Bns they just were light on Hvy Weapons and support they were basic inf Bns and they rotated Bns back a lot to front line Bdes - it was almost rest duty for fron line Bns

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I also received an OOB book on the British Army in the Far East from Osprey Books yesterday in the mail. Now I'm looking at some of the British and Indian units which are in CHS and it actually looks like many of the Indian Divisions are considerably understrength. Many of the Indian Divisions in CHS are more like brigade size. According to the book I'm using it looks like they should be the size of regular divisions. So far the 14th, 19th and 20th Indian Divisions seem to be grossly under represented in the game. I'm still checking on others.

[Edit] Also arrival dates seem to be misrepresented in places, some Divs arriving prematurely and some arriving too late.

Unfortunately there is no mention of the local Indian militias which I put together in my mod. I assume they did exist however as shown on www.niehorster.orbat.com. [&:]

Another major problem was that the Indian Divisions/Brigades had at least four different TO&E at various times during the war. Also, as stated in some of the above postings, the Divisions were usually not static in their composition, thus could vary in size depending upon how many brigades were attached to it for any given operation. Unfortunately, the game does not allow for units to vary much in composition over time.

My solution, based on the Osprey Book, I created 6 different infantry formations, 4 divisional and 2 brigade. For the Divisional there is a light division based on two normal brigades, an assault divison based around a motorized concept, a M-T division with a hig proportion of horse/mule and light truck/jeep equipped units, and a Jungle division that had very little heavy equipment/weapons and primerily leg infantry. FOr the brigades, a regular motorized and and the chindwits jungle.

Aye TOE's changed a lot you also have to account for formations that were Desert trained and equiped like 5th Indian or in late 44 forces like 17th/19th that re equipped after Imphal onto a mechanised TOE
 
Its a real pain in the neck !!!!
 
I use Mark Bevis's Helion TOE books they are excellent as well

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Aye TOE's changed a lot you also have to account for formations that were Desert trained and equiped like 5th Indian or in late 44 forces like 17th/19th that re equipped after Imphal onto a mechanised TOE

Its a real pain in the neck !!!!

I use Mark Bevis's Helion TOE books they are excellent as well

Thanks Andy Mac! I just ordered the Bevis TOE books from Amazon. I'll check and see how close the two different authors are.

The Osprey book does list brigades which were part of the divisions and after scanning the database, I didn't find any of the brigades listed independently for the divisions which appear understrength. So I just assumed that the divisions should be represented at greater strength.

For instance 14th Divisions appears to consist of 4 brigades (47th, 123rd, 55th, 88th). In CHS 14th Division appears to be only one brigade in strength. According to the book it was raised in May of 1941. So I went ahead and gave it all 4 brigades worth of equipment and set the disabled percent high to represent the recentness of the mobilization.

[Edit] Also I'm thinking of reducing their experience a little more than in CHS around 45 or so to represent the lack of Jungle combat training which apparently provided a great hinderance to the combat effectiveness of the divisions early on.

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Aye TOE's changed a lot you also have to account for formations that were Desert trained and equiped like 5th Indian or in late 44 forces like 17th/19th that re equipped after Imphal onto a mechanised TOE

Its a real pain in the neck !!!!

I use Mark Bevis's Helion TOE books they are excellent as well

I agree, I picked up the set a couple of months ago. They also give some really good infor on the New Zealand units also. For instance I have included two Fiji Commando BN's.

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I also received an OOB book on the British Army in the Far East from Osprey Books yesterday in the mail. Now I'm looking at some of the British and Indian units which are in CHS and it actually looks like many of the Indian Divisions are considerably understrength. Many of the Indian Divisions in CHS are more like brigade size. According to the book I'm using it looks like they should be the size of regular divisions. So far the 14th, 19th and 20th Indian Divisions seem to be grossly under represented in the game. I'm still checking on others.

[Edit] Also arrival dates seem to be misrepresented in places, some Divs arriving prematurely and some arriving too late.

Unfortunately there is no mention of the local Indian militias which I put together in my mod. I assume they did exist however as shown on www.niehorster.orbat.com. [&:]

If you want to model how the UK managed its divisions IRL, you have to break each division down into its component brigades plus a division HQ providing support and of about brigade strength.

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I also received an OOB book on the British Army in the Far East from Osprey Books yesterday in the mail. Now I'm looking at some of the British and Indian units which are in CHS and it actually looks like many of the Indian Divisions are considerably understrength. Many of the Indian Divisions in CHS are more like brigade size. According to the book I'm using it looks like they should be the size of regular divisions. So far the 14th, 19th and 20th Indian Divisions seem to be grossly under represented in the game. I'm still checking on others.

[Edit] Also arrival dates seem to be misrepresented in places, some Divs arriving prematurely and some arriving too late.

Unfortunately there is no mention of the local Indian militias which I put together in my mod. I assume they did exist however as shown on www.niehorster.orbat.com. [&:]

If you want to model how the UK managed its divisions IRL, you have to break each division down into its component brigades plus a division HQ providing support and of about brigade strength.

I may end up doing just that the more I look into this book.

It is my guess that the OB you see in CHS is quite deliberate. That is, the intent is for units to slowly build from brigades to division sized. At first - by inheritance - RHS did the same thing. Now we have pretty much gone the route of tayloring each unit. Nevertheless, we still do this. A Forum recommendation was to add a "missing" division - but to start it at brigade size and let it slowly grow - so at least the last unit added is in this format.

My solution to the OB changes is:

a) Always use the OB at the time a unit appears on the map;
b) Permit equipment or squads to upgrade using device upgrade mechanisms - supply and production permitting;
c) Use specialized OB for units that are unique.

Thus - you will find three or four KINDS of "Chindit" brigades - in two different armies (British and Indian) -
composed of varoius combinations of British, Gurkha and Indian squads - based on the regiments from which
the units were made and their formal association. The Indian airborne brigade is obvously unique. Stuff like that.

Aye Cid this is an interesting area and its almost down to personal preference.
 
I for one from a management point of view in 43/44 and 45 want properly constituted Divisons rather than Bdes for when I go on the attack.
 
Its very much a personal preference I want to maximise (while not compromising at start historical deployments) the number of 350 AV Divisions as opposed to 117 AV Bdes. (So in India I want to see 19th/20th/23rd/26th Indian Divs at less than full strength unlike stock I recognise that 17th and 14th are just to hard to do and keep historical as so many Bdes passed though them)
 
Some people would rather have 51 Combat bdes and have maximum flexibility at the expense of micromanagement and don't like the system of starting Div shells at less than full strength such that they grow to full strength by 43. Others, including me, like having forces at start so 10 Bdes in Malaya and Burma and c 20 other independent Bdes and 19/20/23/26 at start and 5/7/25 perhaps 44th arriving as reinforcements that will grow into full scale divisions and not having to many Bdes except where historically required (Burma/Malaya and some of the at start Indian Bdes).
 
It really is a matter of personal preference with one exception stock is set at 80 Squads replacements BECAUSE you need to fill out 5 Division (or c 1,000 Indian Inf Squads) meaning that without combat losses all 5 at start Divs are at full strenght sometime in 43 - if you give full Divisions or Bdes at start and do not start with empty shells you must severely reduce the 80 squads a month the Indians get or else it is to easy for the allies to fully rebuild from cadre Malayan and Burmese Bdes and end up with thousands of squads in pool.
 
The 43 upgrade should be left at 80 squads whatever happens
 
Andy
 

Hi Andy, mine preferences are same as yours - I prefer to use divisions when possible. Do you have complete listing of units in india, in form easy to inject to database? I ve seen you already posted which units are present, but without dates when unit arrives, or where unit starts.

Ouch - I missed my 1000th post

Since brigades so often changed divisions - and since the Forum India scholars seemed uniformly to recommend a brigade foundation - RHS has gone that way. We ALSO have added many independent battalions - finding for example that a typical division and/or corps had one or even more than one of these - and yet other cases where the units remained independent. We do have a few divisions - where the organization seems close to stable and/or the division had an important role as such. In spite of the theory WITP is division oriented, I think it is brigade/regiment oriented - and also that moving units is easier to do in tact if they are not whole divisions. [It is not easy to lift a division on a 25 ship convoy - particularly if a proper proportion is escorts] If you get all the parts - I don't see a big problem. However - I will grant that it is more playable if you have fewer formations to manage. Since I am a simulator I prefer detail and player control at the expense of playability - and I agree that it is valid to make the other choice. But in that case you must compromise the division OB - pick some set of brigades - and maybe an extra regiment - and arty - and "freeze" it into a combination. Players may still break it into three packages, but they won't see the brigade names, nor be able to send the heavy guns (or independent battalion) where they wish. RHS focus is attention to historical detail, so brigade and "regiment" (battalion) names are part of that. It also sometimes permits units to arrive at the right date - when for example a division arrives in "packages" and not on one day. It also sometimes permits a division to be in multiple places when it appears - if it was indeed in multople places. One can divide a division - but a modder cannot start it divided except by breaking it up. [If two brigades appear at one point I create a "division" brigade - a unit that divides into two parts and is formally called a division - but is represented by a brigade symbol.] There is also the matter of four brigade divisions - and by representing them as brigades you can get the right "packages" - where a division would only allow three. There are so few CW formations and they have such vast areas I prefer the brigade - and independent "regiment" - approach. Nevertheless, because players can divide them I think divisions will work adequately. They just require a higher level of abstraction - I guess you put the division at the HQ location - ignore its other parts in other places and/or appearing at other dates - and don't allow players to separate out the divisional independent regiment - or artillery - no matter the need. My principle "power to the players" requires more work for the modder - and more management by the players - but it results in a more historical set of unit locations/dates and more flexability for players. Having said that, I think the entire concept of a more playable WITP - which isn't very playable - is of great merit - and worthy of serious attention.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Since brigades so often changed divisions - and since the Forum India scholars seemed uniformly to recommend a brigade foundation - RHS has gone that way. We ALSO have added many independent battalions - finding for example that a typical division and/or corps had one or even more than one of these - and yet other cases where the units remained independent. We do have a few divisions - where the organization seems close to stable and/or the division had an important role as such. In spite of the theory WITP is division oriented, I think it is brigade/regiment oriented - and also that moving units is easier to do in tact if they are not whole divisions. [It is not easy to lift a division on a 25 ship convoy - particularly if a proper proportion is escorts]

That is why can in the game can divide a Division into three parts, thus not tying up slots and making it easier to transport.