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I am conflicted over an opening move.

Generally, I have always been a traditionalist about the start of any campaign. What are opnions regarding hitting Manila instead of PH? All those SS vs. having to deal with an intact US Pacific Fleet.

Any Allied Fan Boys out there willing to say what they would do if that was how thing started?

Figure that the Japanese would have to have substantial naval assets in the Central Pacific as a counter...

Me, me,me..sunk about 20 subs [X(][:D][:'(]

If you attack Manila you will get rid of these allied subs,they could be a real pain in ***[;)].
As JFB i think that is best target for first turn Singapore,you will get rid force "Z" in that way and secure that your DEI invasion goes without intrusions

That is my opinion.

Lots and lots of subs die.

At the start of the war probably a majority of naval experts still thought the BB was still the main measure of naval strength. Hence the PH raid. Some thought correctly that the CV would rule the waves in the war and so this was also an important objective of the PH raid.

How many thought that the sub would be decisive??? So historically speaking I'm not sure Japan would have really based its initial moves around a strategy to damage lots of subs. (BUT you know I'm snowed in today and so happy to start a controversy[:D])

In the game the allied subs are arguably more valuable then the BB's for the early going. But I would also be happy as allied to avoid the slaughter of my aircraft that occurs at PH on Dec 7.

while 20 subs running around the DEI in the 1st months can be a pain in the a$$, its not gonna slow you down by any means. And once the DEI is wrapped up, using coordinated convoys, escort ships, and ASW air platforms you can easily negate the effects of the allied unrestricted submarine warfare efforts. Unlike the real japanese, you have hindsight and know strongly escorted convoys will defeat any submarine interdiction (ie real life U-boat war in the atlantic)

I would go for Force Z. Hitting Singapore will pretty much sink the 2 BB's there (unlike PH), plus you still have the KB in the DEI from the start of the war.

Best case scenario is to convince your oppenant to play with "Allied Sub Doctrine ON". This alone will make those 20 subs at Manila impotent, without having to waste your KB attack on them. I'm currently playing a game as the Allies with Allied Sub Doctrine ON, and for the first 18months of the war, my subs would constantly sight enemy transports, but would only attack 1 out of 4-5 times with their 60% dud rate torpedos

Is it better to sink those darned BBs in 15,000Ft of water or put them down in 40'?
 
If the Americans were left with an intact Fleet---the QUESTION is what would they do with it?  How many Allied Fan Boys would sail out to meet the enemy?  Would the Americans cower around Pearl Harbor as the Japanese go into a feeding frenzy in the DEI? 
 
Anyone?  Anyone?? 

ORIGINAL: KDonovan
I would go for Force Z. Hitting Singapore will pretty much sink the 2 BB's there (unlike PH), plus you still have the KB in the DEI from the start of the war.

I agree with this 100%. In terms of hurting the allies I think your best bet is still PH (puts multiple BB out of action for the first year of the war and smashes US airpower in the Central Pacific), but Sing is a good move also. YOu probably will sink one and maybe 2 BB, plus the KB is in the SRA to support your invasions a couple weeks sooner than it would be if you attacked PH.

Sinking a bunch of subs won't make a bit of difference in the long run. The US gets a ton of subs as reinforcements. In the short run it will hurt a little, but IMO subs, while a PITA, don't really do much to slow down Japan.

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Is it better to sink those darned BBs in 15,000Ft of water or put them down in 40'?

If the Americans were left with an intact Fleet---the QUESTION is what would they do with it?  How many Allied Fan Boys would sail out to meet the enemy?  Would the Americans cower around Pearl Harbor as the Japanese go into a feeding frenzy in the DEI? 

Anyone?  Anyone?? 

If my fleet at PH was unmolested I would send part of it to reinforce DEI and the South Pacific. The slow battlewagons are of limited usefulness, but with a really adapt player can make good point defense ships. I would hold part of my fleet back though. Those battlewagons become much more valuable from 43 on when the US begins its offensives.

If the Americans were left with an intact Fleet---the QUESTION is what would they do with it? How many Allied Fan Boys would sail out to meet the enemy? Would the Americans cower around Pearl Harbor as the Japanese go into a feeding frenzy in the DEI?

Anyone? Anyone??

From my standpoint in 2 of 3 PBEM's i've played, Japan hit Manila instead of PH on turn one, leaving my BB's intact. Despite the presence of the KB in the DEI, i pretty much harbored my BB's in and around PH. While useless in the beginning of the war, they are quite handy when the allies are on the offensive in 1943 for bombarding bases, therefore i never risked them getting sunk in the first 6 months of war in any serious operations

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Is it better to sink those darned BBs in 15,000Ft of water or put them down in 40'?

If the Americans were left with an intact Fleet---the QUESTION is what would they do with it?  How many Allied Fan Boys would sail out to meet the enemy?  Would the Americans cower around Pearl Harbor as the Japanese go into a feeding frenzy in the DEI? 

Anyone?  Anyone?? 

Wasn't that the historical american plan to immediatlly send the fleet toward PI and win a decisive surface combat thus relieving the PI. I wonder what would have happened if Japan had concentrated on the PI and then just had KB lie in wait for the American battlefleet.

disabling the BB's does have it's uses as some players can be very aggressive with them. Also important are the hitting and destruction of the mass of airpower sitting at PH.

I keep forgetting about the airpower in PH.  I always swing at the Fleet and move on.
 
What about hitting PH with 4 of the 6 KB Fleet CVs and have to other two available for ops in the DEI?  Just 2 CVs would be a force to be reckoned with!  Couple them to the mini-KB and you might have a REAL strike froce!
 
Of course this thought would leave the PH Attack Force at only 4 CVs...would they be enough???

It's an interesting thought, using only 4x CVs for PH, and using 2x(?) for SRA.
 
Just playing "what if" there.  For your 4x CVs, your priority should then be the AFs at PH (I would think).

If you completely knock out the AF (you can probably do it with 4 dedicated CVs), you can then sit around another day or 2, and hit the port if you so choose. 
 
Frankly, I doubt an Allied player will sortie his BBs into open water, while 4 CVs are hanging around.  Esp with no AF to provide LRCAP or counter-strike.
 
It's also very important for you to close the AF if you only have 4x CVs, because Allied player will be strongly tempted to engage you with his nearby CVs.  If you're within LBA range of PH plus the additional flight decks, I'd consider taking a shot at a KB with only 4 CVs.  Not saying for sure, but I'd be tempted, and it would depend heavily upon whether I could field additional support form the AF at PH.

Of course, the flip on that is, if you use that "temptation" against the Allied player.  Most Japanese players would *love* for a crack at the Allied CVs during the first week.  But the only real way of enticing it, is shed 2 CVs for SRA and tempt fate.
 
I dunno.  It's an interesting thought.
 
-F-

Dont forget one thing,if you strike on Singapore you will probably sink Prince of Wales.
That is FAR better ship than those slow moving betty targets from PH[:D].

Think for minute what allied player can do with BBs from PH,nothing REALLY important except bombarding runs at ,maybe,Wake[;)]
If those BBs come any near than 15 hex from ANY relevant Japan base,lets say Kwaieliean,they would be decimated by LBA[:'(]

Wasn't that the historical american plan to immediatlly send the fleet toward PI and win a decisive surface combat thus relieving the PI. I wonder what would have happened if Japan had concentrated on the PI and then just had KB lie in wait for the American battlefleet.

Never would have happened. Couple months ago i just finished reading "War Plan Orange - The US Strategy to Defeat Japan: 1897-1945 by Edward Miller" The author goes through all the War plans against japan from that time period. While the very first couple of plans (Pre-WWI) had the classic "full steam ahead to the Phillipinnes mindset", that plan was never really ever considered.

The true War Plan Orange, later to become part of the Rainbow War plans right before outbreak of war, consisted primarily of 3 phases througout its development.

The 1st phase said that Japan would run amok in the Pacific for 6 months, conquering the Phillipinnes, Guam, and Wake inorder to secure access to the resources of DEI. Generally speaking, there were no plans for the rescue for the Phillipinne garrison, even though some generals insisted on it (ie McArthur)

The 2nd phase would be marching of the US forces across the Pacific with goals of developing a western naval base (usually indicated as a place in the southern phillipinnes) How to achieve this is where opinions varied into 2 camps.

The "thrusters" camp wanted an immediate western naval base before japanese can dig in, and proposed quickly securing a refueling base in one of the Marshalls lagoons (60 days into the war), then sailing directly to the Southern Philipinnes for construction of the great western naval base. Best case scenario sought establishment/completion of the western naval base 270 days into the war.

The "cautioners" camp wanted a more conservative approached, and proposed securing/constructing an eastern pacific naval base first (at Truk, 270 days into the war) then moving onto the western naval phase (in the southern philipinnes +360 days into war).

Either way, there wasn't to be some "mad dash" to the phillipinnes to rescue the garrison there.

Japan at this point was expected to fight a delaying battle of attrition with cruiser and submarine forces, holding her battleline back for the climatic battle in Phase 3

Phase 3 was where planners thought the climatic battle would happen. With the establishment of the western naval base, the US would then secure the Ryukus chain, imposing an economic blockade on Japan. At this point, planners believe Japan would then sail out to meet the American fleet.

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I keep forgetting about the airpower in PH.  I always swing at the Fleet and move on.

What about hitting PH with 4 of the 6 KB Fleet CVs and have to other two available for ops in the DEI?  Just 2 CVs would be a force to be reckoned with!  Couple them to the mini-KB and you might have a REAL strike froce!

Of course this thought would leave the PH Attack Force at only 4 CVs...would they be enough???

It might be.....however a two CV attack on a port would probably only get minor results, at least if Manila given the large # of low VP targets. Two CV's attacking Singapore would be potentially more fruitful since PoW and Repulse would probably attract a majority of the carrier planes. (The G3M force can do the same though)

ORIGINAL: hawker

Dont forget one thing,if you strike on Singapore you will probably sink Prince of Wales.
That is FAR better ship than those slow moving betty targets from PH[:D].

Think for minute what allied player can do with BBs from PH,nothing REALLY important except bombarding runs at ,maybe,Wake[;)]
If those BBs come any near than 15 hex from ANY relevant Japan base,lets say Kwaieliean,they would be decimated by LBA[:'(]

I don't really disagree with this statement. There isn't a lot of the BBs to do early in the war, but I think they help keep the Japanese player honest. You basically force them to make their invasions with considerable air cover, otherwise they run the risk of a surface engagement. With a PH attack you disable the BBs for the better part of a year. That leaves heavy cruisers as the only surface threat. However, if you don't disable the BBs an IJN cruiser force probably won't cut it for invasion support, Japan would have to use its BBs to provide surface escort.

Don't forget too that the movement routine @ full speed often can allow a surface force to slip in and muck it up before getting blasted to hell by airpower so BB's can be even more of a threat. Rob the RRoberson did that to me in our 44' PBEM. Through a combination of timing and luck (my carriers failed to "find" the fat target sitting in the invasion hex due to weather) he was able to pull off a straight old fashioned surface battle and traded virtually 1:1 in BB's as a result....a better, more satisfying fate the RL IJN would have appreciated vs. the ignomity of being plastered by air without being able to retaliate.

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Don't forget too that the movement routine @ full speed often can allow a surface force to slip in and muck it up before getting blasted to hell by airpower so BB's can be even more of a threat. Rob the RRoberson did that to me in our 44' PBEM. Through a combination of timing and luck (my carriers failed to "find" the fat target sitting in the invasion hex due to weather) he was able to pull off a straight old fashioned surface battle and traded virtually 1:1 in BB's as a result....a better, more satisfying fate the RL IJN would have appreciated vs. the ignomity of being plastered by air without being able to retaliate.

Nik,you mention 44 campaign,my statement is that PH BB are USELESS in first part of 42.They are good only for target practice[8D].
Japan has a LOT of very good trained LBA and any less than decent Japanese player will prevent PH BB bombing of IMPORTANT bases,as i say those BBs can bombard Wake.. etc.
Yes,luck can be a factor,but not that big and if allied player is fool enough to sent BBs from Pearl anywhere west of 20 hex from Kwai. they are doomed.

Only relatively safe place that allied player can sent BBs is Australia.
All i want to say is that BBs has a very narrow place they can go against Japan in 1942.

ORIGINAL: hawker


Nik,you mention 44 campaign,my statement is that PH BB are USELESS in first part of 42.They are good only for target practice[8D].

The tactic i described can be done in any time period though obviously, if the base being raided or hit has a large # of long range torp bombers sitting there, there's a high risk factor. Myself, i've used Force Z to good effect despite the presence of Nell bombers @ Saigon. A bit of luck, timing and watching the weather can do wonders.