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First, great work and awesome attention to detail on the RHS mod - I suppose from reading things in the forum those accolades should go out to a lot of folks.

I have a couple of questions on the economics, I have read the forums up and down and the handbook as well and I understand the rationale on increasing resources and oil production, rightly so.

On studying the economy though, it appears that Japan at start begins with roughly 21,000 resources, 1,300 oil and about 13,500 HI with 800-900 manpower. To run the HI and manpower, it appears that the starting resources are sufficient and unless one expands HI significantly, no imports will be required except of oil (at the rate of about 7000 oil points (1200 centers) per day.

It also appears that there are a few oil centers, whose capture alone would result in sufficient oil supplies to meet that requirement. However, I am presuming that the large 'industry forts' will result in damage to places like Palembang, Miri, etc. such that there is no way Japan will probably never get them back up to their starting production levels.

Do, by mid or end war, you see large stockpiles of oil and resources at far flung locations? Say 1,000,000 oil points or something at Palembang and Japan simply can't move the oil back to the home islands.

I am also curious for some philosophy training on the large industry forts. I understand the intent that these represent the civilian economy requirements. However, although I have seen some threads, how do they fare in combat? I mean is a force of 10,000 support squads a challenge to overcome for say a brigade of troops? Also, how do they affect the supply requirements - my guess is 10,000 squads will require about 5,000 tons/month of supply?

By the way, the small allotments of resources, etc. spread out around the map are a good idea and correct. There are many small scale economies that easily produce several hundred tons of basic commodities out there and this accounts for many of the Japanese garrisons ability to survive until the end of the war.

Now, if WITP would only add a category called "munitions" which are produced only by heavy industry to add to stockpiles of Fuel, Oil, Resources, and Supply now we might in one step get a heck of a lot closer to simulating the reality of logistics.

[quote]ORIGINAL: donnie_1974_texas

First, great work and awesome attention to detail on the RHS mod - I suppose from reading things in the forum those accolades should go out to a lot of folks.

REPLY: Correct. There are many contributors of little sections. There are several ongoing contributors. The biggest of all is Cobra - who manages all the art and does quite a bit of it himself - including not one but about five different map art sets for three different levels of maps. The RHS manual is written in several editions by Mifune. The RHS site is donated by AKWarrior. A great deal of detail testing of files for eratta is done by Blitzk. No list can be complete, and several sections have had a lot of attention by individuals.

You may find the Level 6 RHS Economic Utility useful in trying to grasp these values.

There is a difference between stocks of supplies, fuel, oil and resources

and the centers that produce them.

There is also the technical matter of disabled centers.

There is also the technical matter of points that produce supplies without centers (mainly fishing ports).

The utility helps you understand all this on the first day of the game.

IF Axis industry could run wide open, and if we disregard disabled centers, the initial daily deficit for oil
is 11,087. But there is ALSO a daily deficit requirement for resources of 2,279. So the Axis starts with less resources than it needs. This won't matter instantly - because it has stockpiles. But its stocks of oil are much greater than its stocks of resources. Also, since some disabled centers will repair, and since some will be captured, these requirements will grow slightly over time.

Note however, that the gross totals ignore the requirement to move the oil and resources. Historically Japan did a much better job of producing oil and resources than it did of moving them to where they were needed. This almost always happens in the game too - unless Japanese players make economics their focus - and the Allies are not very skilled.

Note that the Allies start with excess oil and resources - but are in grave danger of losing significant amounts of both. On the other hand, the Allies start with significant numbers of damaged centers - so their production should grow for about three years - even if some centers are lost. It is not quite a zero sum game - in that the pie grows - but mostly it is the Allied pie that grows.

The problem with looking at raw numbers is that you cannot see how they interact - which is why the utility was written. Supply is generated by daily "free" supply points at certain points (mainly map edge Allied ones, but also some minor others on the map), by resource centers, and by HI centers. Unless you add up all three, you don't know how much supply is generated. Similarly, HI is used by several things, and unless you add them all up, you don't know how much is getting used. Nor do the totals tell you actual production - since shortages of things - or enemy in hex - or damage - will reduce these.

We do see some points 9999 out in terms of oil and supplies. Mostly these are points in places like Panama with lots of incoming daily feed and a tendency to be ignored by AI (which is boss in tests). If managed by humans it is not clear that any point on either side will ever 9999 out? I attempted to insure this would not often be the case.

There is also a tendency on the part of AI to collect excessive amounts of supplies/resources at certain points - and sometimes these may 9999 out. Usually, you get to values like 92,400 and it stops going up. Moving HQ seems to help it change its mind about such points. And if I want a point to be a collector, I have learned that a first digit of 9 (as in 90,000) TELLS AI "collect things here". Even though fields usually go to 999,999 - 90,000 or above is the code that says "collect this here." Or seems to be.

Supply syncs only abstractly represent civilian consumption - in the sense it is non-military units doing the consuming. It is not that they are proportional to the economy in the hex (except by accident). Instead, they are related to the excess resources generated by resource centers - to get rid of those supplies not really made there at all! It is a workaround and it is not at all perfect. It does, however, give you a shot at damaging centers in a hex undefended by military engineers - when captured. Damage isn't as much as I like - but often is 50-60% - and that may take a year or two to fix - so that isn't too off.

For small sinks - which are inside static units and not easy to spot in all cases - there are no problems with combat - even though the squads have normal leaders and morale. But big syncs are a problem. And one that gets worse over time. The units start with no experience - but gain it - for example. The combat model is such that squad count matters excessively. We did tricky things - plan for the wrong location - give awful leaders - stuff like that - to mitigate this.
It would be a lot better if we had soft control over resource centers supply generation - or if they generated no supply points at all. When/if that happens, RHS supply sinks will shrink - but not entirely go away. They have other functions (demolition, run civil air units, etc).

I prefer a "triangular" logistic system with

supplies

fuel (including aircraft and vehicle fuels)

ammo

and you may see that if there is a WITP II.

Triangular supply works very well in computer games.

I agee on the triangular supply system.  This is the way it should be - I always thought it strange that in WITP aircraft operate on supplies as representative of fuel when it should be fuel and munitions with supply used for repairs, maintenance, etc.
 
Have been culling through the supply sinks, industry issues as well and I like the concept that all, well almost all, supply should have to be produced by the HI centers and that Japan should have to ship it out from these locations.
 
I have been testing out a new device - "Technical Specialists" in Slot 314 for the Japanese.  Anti-soft and anti-armor/penetration of 1 and load cost of 3.  Setting up some tests to replace the supply sinks with multiple thousand squads of these guys.  I note on supply requirements they consume 1 sp per month per squad as do support, load cost is lower and hence manpower is lower.  I will be testing in combat, but, I am afraid that the non-combatant values are reflected more on number of squads versus actual manpower - is this a correct assumption?
 
As far as building them, I was thinking of setting up, as the LCU slots are available for Japan, of a number of groups of these units requiring replacements.  House rule being that Japan cannot start repairing capturing industry/exporting from it w/o shipping in one of these units.  Of course this would require some elaboration and I can already see the problems arising from what is the state of the industry when you capture it.  But perhaps this way, you no longer have to time the arrival of your reinforcements of say Palembang industry, etc.  I am putting in a build rate for these squads so that Japan does not have to consume MP, Arm pts to build them.
 
Dunno the best approach, access to the code would be ideal I suppose...think how easy it would be if we could just change the function that says - resource point creates 1 supply point to say resource point creates 0.1 supply points...or better yet, have the resource, oil, supply production phase just call an economic calibration table that can be modified with multipliers...nah, that would be too easy...
 
Several of the mods are steps in the right direction regarding air to air.  So, code modifications in general it appears are required for improvement to:
 
1)  land combat
2)  surface combat
3)  logistics
 
Everything else is pretty tolerable for the most part and this is an incredible game.
 
 
 

Oh, by the way, Cid - thanks for the breadth of replies.  I appreciate how much time you spend on this.  I wish had a little more time to play around with modding this game, I've got some ideas, but, we're launching a start-up right now and I have not quite the amount of free time I would like to.

[quote]ORIGINAL: donnie_1974_texas

I agee on the triangular supply system.  This is the way it should be - I always thought it strange that in WITP aircraft operate on supplies as representative of fuel when it should be fuel and munitions with supply used for repairs, maintenance, etc.

Have been culling through the supply sinks, industry issues as well and I like the concept that all, well almost all, supply should have to be produced by the HI centers and that Japan should have to ship it out from these locations.

I have been testing out a new device - "Technical Specialists" in Slot 314 for the Japanese.  Anti-soft and anti-armor/penetration of 1 and load cost of 3.  Setting up some tests to replace the supply sinks with multiple thousand squads of these guys.  I note on supply requirements they consume 1 sp per month per squad as do support, load cost is lower and hence manpower is lower.  I will be testing in combat, but, I am afraid that the non-combatant values are reflected more on number of squads versus actual manpower - is this a correct assumption?


REPLY: First, the number of support must equal or exceed the total of other squads - or the supply sink sucks support from military units in the hex. Second, anti-armor values and anti-soft values can = 0. Third, supply consumption is 1/30 supply point per day - not quite 1 supply point per month - but close. Fourth - manpower reports do not matter except as chrome. Fifth - squad count is a big deal in its own right. Too big.

[quote]ORIGINAL: donnie_1974_texas

I agee on the triangular supply system.  This is the way it should be - I always thought it strange that in WITP aircraft operate on supplies as representative of fuel when it should be fuel and munitions with supply used for repairs, maintenance, etc.

Have been culling through the supply sinks, industry issues as well and I like the concept that all, well almost all, supply should have to be produced by the HI centers and that Japan should have to ship it out from these locations.

I have been testing out a new device - "Technical Specialists" in Slot 314 for the Japanese.  Anti-soft and anti-armor/penetration of 1 and load cost of 3.  Setting up some tests to replace the supply sinks with multiple thousand squads of these guys.  I note on supply requirements they consume 1 sp per month per squad as do support, load cost is lower and hence manpower is lower.  I will be testing in combat, but, I am afraid that the non-combatant values are reflected more on number of squads versus actual manpower - is this a correct assumption?

As far as building them, I was thinking of setting up, as the LCU slots are available for Japan, of a number of groups of these units requiring replacements.  House rule being that Japan cannot start repairing capturing industry/exporting from it w/o shipping in one of these units.  Of course this would require some elaboration and I can already see the problems arising from what is the state of the industry when you capture it.  But perhaps this way, you no longer have to time the arrival of your reinforcements of say Palembang industry, etc.  I am putting in a build rate for these squads so that Japan does not have to consume MP, Arm pts to build them.

REPLY: This is pretty radical. It is imaginative. It would never work in an AI controlled game - and AI as Japan is a major way the game is played. There are problems. For example, you need engineers so the sink does demolition. You need to balance support and other elements. But it might be workable in a PBEM mod.

Hi guys,
I am a quite new WitP-gamer.
Discovered RHS, downed and installed. (more difficult than the manual says, a.o. no starters-button found)

I decided for EOS and had just the 1rst turn done.
First impressions are:
-Beautifull map. On land however the hexes are difficult to see.
-I also took the enhanced map-icons. They are nice but a little large. In Japan you can hardly see the map. Can live with it.
Maybe its a matter of getting accustomed to it.
-Part of the Sulu Sea is darkish. What type of sea is that?

2nd impression: It looks so good that I go on with EOS. The fact that Allies start with damaged facilities suits me fine. It seems an improvement for the Jap-player, allthough I have no idea how it will work out.
Great job guys. Must have been a lot of work.

A couple of other questions:
- Those coloured small boxes for diverse Centre hexes (like S=SCH Supply Centre Hex). They are new to me. How do they function?
- The formula's like 1 HI = 1 Resourse + 1 Oil are still valid ? (as in WitP)
- A Jap Eng Regiment has now in its TOE Jap Assault Egr Squads i.o Engineer Squads.
In WitP you see these Engineer Squads in the Intel-Resource-pool. The Jap Assault Egr Squads are not visible in that resource-pool. Does that mean they can't be replaced? Do I miss something?
- The functionality of the sealanes is not clear to me. Is there info on these?
- For the first landings at Aparri and Laoag I see several AK's in use for trooptransport. Lots of free AP's quite near.
Is there a special purpose for that?

AvG

There is a map key at the top. Explains the letters. They tell you major sources of Resource points, Oil centers, etc. Because RHS is economically centered, where stuff is matters.

We cannot change the formulas - they are hard code. But we cheat with resource centers - making the de facto supply production less because we "eat" the excess.

Many units renamed for clarity. In all forms of WITP engineers are assault - but not always called that - except only two - which we call pioneers and motorized engineers (but are called engineer and engineer vehicle in others).

Seaplanes are low quality planes able to base on places with no airfield at all - or seaplane carriers - useful in some places. Japan should think about NOT building airfields forward - contest the area and let the allies start with NO airfields when they take them back. Delays the return of enemy air power.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

There is a map key at the top. Explains the letters. They tell you major sources of Resource points, Oil centers, etc. Because RHS is economically centered, where stuff is matters.

We cannot change the formulas - they are hard code. But we cheat with resource centers - making the de facto supply production less because we "eat" the excess.

Many units renamed for clarity. In all forms of WITP engineers are assault - but not always called that - except only two - which we call pioneers and motorized engineers (but are called engineer and engineer vehicle in others).

Seaplanes are low quality planes able to base on places with no airfield at all - or seaplane carriers - useful in some places. Japan should think about NOT building airfields forward - contest the area and let the allies start with NO airfields when they take them back. Delays the return of enemy air power.

Historically Japan used AKs vice APs most of the time. Dumb - and forced the economy to use APs instead of AKs. Dumb again. See The Japanese Merchant Marine and World War Two.

OK El Cid, thank you.

Of course I studied the map-key. Just have a look at the Sulu Sea. Its is not deep nor shallow. It looks like a marsh under water. Is it very undeep? It caught my attention because 1 sub is in the middle of it.

I also saw in that key where the letters (R, S, O, etc) are standing for. I want to know what they do. Are they working like an automatic gathering-point for their specific resource?

That renaming Jap Assault Egr Squads i.o Engineer Squads is a good thing for clarity. In WitP however I see those Engeneer Squads in the Intel-Resourcepool. the renamed Jap Assault Egr Squads are not in the pool (after the 1rst turn)
Will they show up later, when the AI decides to make them?

You write something about seaplanes. My question was about sealanes. Is their function only to enlarge the map in order to introduce distant cities? You can't enter them from the side?

AvG

ORIGINAL: AvG

OK El Cid, thank you.

Of course I studied the map-key. Just have a look at the Sulu Sea. Its is not deep nor shallow. It looks like a marsh under water. Is it very undeep? It caught my attention because 1 sub is in the middle of it.

REPLY: Art questions must be addressed by Cobra - I have nothing to do with art - except I ask for changes sometimes.

I also saw in that key where the letters (R, S, O, etc) are standing for. I want to know what they do. Are they working like an automatic gathering-point for their specific resource?

REPLY: They are pure indicators - we do not write game code. If there are 300 or more Resource centers in a hex, you get an R symbol for example. These symbols indicate concentrations of the thing specified are present.


That renaming Jap Assault Egr Squads i.o Engineer Squads is a good thing for clarity. In WitP however I see those Engeneer Squads in the Intel-Resourcepool. the renamed Jap Assault Egr Squads are not in the pool (after the 1rst turn)
Will they show up later, when the AI decides to make them?

REPLY: A lot of reports are hard coded - so they revert to original names - whatever name we put in the field. Even so, when they appear in units, our names are used. Engines are an example: some reports insist they be "Mitsubishi" instead of "Ha-1" - so I double named them. If my name appears you see the Ha number, but both ways you see the Mitsubishi.

You write something about seaplanes. My question was about sealanes. Is their function only to enlarge the map in order to introduce distant cities? You can't enter them from the side?

REPLY: Oops. OK - sea lanes are a way to move around the "backside" of the world - or between the main map and the mini maps for Panama and Madagascar. They are channeled and no, you cannot enter them from the side by ship. Planes, however, can enter them from the side - which is why the plane range setting restrictions (house rules).

AvG

Just have a look at the Sulu Sea. Its is not deep nor shallow. It looks like a marsh under water. Is it very undeep? It caught my attention because 1 sub is in the middle of it.

when I did the the art translation from Google Earth to AB's map the image Sulu Sea is different to the surrounding waters - your question prompted me Google it and found the first image that came from space of the Sulu Sea started a research study complete with a deep sea sub during the 80's and 90's
it appears that there is constant wave action in the Sulu Sea (depending on the day large ripples fanning out) the sea is at least 100 mtr + deep
One of natures wonders
Cobra Aus