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Struggling through my attempt to play subject scenario against the IJ AI (RHSEOS 6.66), I have run up against another issue.

The AI is attempting to use the river port bases, as their destination and home ports, for sea going TFs. It seems while blocking off the river mouths prevents the rivers from being misused as deep water (by AI or otherwise) it cause other issues.

When the TFs are given orders to any of these blocked ports (by the AI) they stop in their current locations and their Moves (m/c) goes into a red figure (example 56/19998) and they will not proceed further. I have one Japanese TF that was prevented from unloading its troops and was ordered to retire to a river port location. I subsequently bombed and torpedoed it hell and back until I tried to discover what was going on. I checked and found the AI was routinely using the river port locations for many TFs and they were all frozen.

I know, I know, I know, the whole [:-], its not nice try to play AI games. This is just a report of an issue.

Sid, I will send you a saved game example.

The game was designed so that all ports are on the sea. Ports on inland river systems inherently confuse the AI. TFs on these waterways - if under AI control - often try to go to distant points - it is not just TFs at sea try to go to river ports.
This is a problem mainly for the Allies - and AI does not work at all with the Allies - so I don't worry about that.

But it also is a problem for the Japanese in a few cases. There is no solution except to do away with interior river systems in some sort of a "Japan controlled by AI" mod. AI is never going to handle this right. I have considered tricking the AI in various ways - and I can reduce the number of cases - but it isn't worth the effort.

More interesting to me is this:

EXTERIOR river systems function perfectly;

SOME interior river systems sometimes function properly under AI control. In particular, the AI seems to like the Ganges - don't ask why? And moves units upriver and then feeds them. Not that AI should run the Allies - but in auto tests it runs everything.

The proper solution is to play head to head or PBEM. Otherwise, ignore river port anomolies as some sort of gibberish. Lots of that IRL too.

We could do a special pwhex set which would open up the rivers - and this problem won't be too bad. But big ships will then go upstream - rarely - under AI control.

Note that in all AI controlled sides of all games TFs sometimes have no cargo, 0 fuel on board, and silly destinations. Fact of WITP life.

Of the two possible partial solutions mentioned above, I think that the "Japan controlled by AI" mod doing away with the interior river systems would be the way to go.  This would allow those wanting/needing to play by themselves the benefit of having access to the other neat rich details and concepts that RHS is all about.  The opening of the rivers not only facilitates unreasonable movement of supplies and troops to the interiors, but, also to other combat units.  My game is in the second week of Jan 1942 and in addition to the aforementioned supplies and troops heading inland I have a Carrier TF going to Kiamuse (hex 66/29) from the Banda Sea.  Too bad, I like the interior river system.
 
I thought maybe I could provide a little hands on help to redirect the errant TFs by going to Head to Head for a turn, but the problem is too great each turn with the AI really wanting to use its new assets.
 
Any additional mod doesn't make since if there is only one head strong player that would use it (that would be me).  If you find there are those who still like to play RHS in the AI mode and do other mod, I will sure try it.
 
 
 
 

This would b e a lot of work. Lots of pwhex and location and ship file coding involved. We could ignore the ship part - they they would be "frozen" and just die when attacked! It would have to be a new scenario. RHSAIO (AI Option?)

Sounds super to me. My name is Jimmy, take anything you give me and beggars can't be choosers. Seriously, the fate of the river boats is much less important than having a RHS AI game to play even with moderate faults.

There is no such thing as AI playing with moderate faults! It isn't AI - it is not intelligent - it is hard code. For what it is it does amazingly well - as Japan - and it probably never will do the Allies right. But it is a mess. You have lots of TF errors at sea too. Stupid waste of your shipping.

I understand.

What you can do right now is:

play RHS Level 5 scenarios

Use CHS pwhex file

Use either CHS art or RHS Level 5 art

This will cost you the ferry systems of RHS, and it will cost you all the interior river systems and most of the exterior river systems (but not those used by CHS). All ports that are inland will be unable to function, and AI should more or less ignore them. Naval units at inland ports will be land locked chrome.

But I like the ferries (now that's what I call leading with your chin).  I have solicited (actually begged) a fellow board member who lives in my area and who I worked with for almost 14 years before I retired, too use the editor and go in and remove the port capabilities of the river ports.  He is somewhat younger than I, don't drink much and has managed to conserve billions of brain cells that I have flushed down the toilet (I don't blame the Navy for that, but, it helped form me)
 
Maybe this along with occasionally intervening and assisting the computer opponent get back on track, will help me.  He said he could do it but I will have to start the game over.  Damn, the whole 12/08/1941 marathon turn all over again.
 
Eh BTW Sid, did you notice you used the phrase "and AI should more or less ignore them".  Now isn't that easier than writing out computer opponent.[:D]

You can do this by editing location file too. Just set the river ports to 'airbase' instead of "base" - and they will cease to be ports in the AI view of things. But ships there then have a problem! Theoretically one should 9999 them all out.

We could call this RHSAIO??? [AI Option?] Since it ONLY would work for Japan - we could leave in the river system manual players must manage anyway as Allies. Japan has only one port on the upper Yellow River and one on the Upper Yangtze - take out their Japanese units you have Allied only river systems. The Russians would have to lose their river stuff - or Japan just have no ships to contest them (which ships didn't do much IRL). But note that NOTHING ever is going to make AI work for Allies.

The only thought I have as to leaving the river ports active for the Allies is that some of those bases will likely be captured by Japan by wars end and you would have the problem again. Since you can't edit the bases for an on going game that would put you at square one again.

Actually you CAN edit pwhex DURING a game! If you make it a non-coastal hex, the port will not be a port.

But I don't like any of this. AI does no work. Why pretend? Find someone to play against - or play against yourself with scripted rules for the AI side. A script is more intelligent than what we have - and won't do stupid things. Or play against me. I can generate a turn very fast.

I know nothing about editing a PWHEX and less about scripted or scripting rules.  Thanks for the offer but I am just not interested in playing a PBEM game.  The AI (if you will) may do stupid things but so do I.  Also the long term commitment of a PBEM game is not something that appeals to me.
 
Bottom line is I will muddle along for a while pretending until it is time to shelve this mother.

You misunderstood:

If you want a quick and dirty turn - then send me the turn and I will turn it around fast - no attempt to be clever - just basic

And if you want to roll your own

take a sheet of paper -

write basic rules for allocating "enemy" TFs - then just check them as if it were a face to face game - always honor your "script" - and you have a presto game of "aided" AI

I'm really am not questioning your comments Sid. Maybe it's just a reaffirmation to myself why I don't go the PBEM route.

Thanks for you for explaining your script thoughts but controlling the operations and mapping out everything my computer opponent is to do in a Head to Head, sounds like work and not play, even if you suggest much less detail.
I have played (and enjoyed) the game Empire Deluxe where some of the mods needed scripting and that part always confused me and sounds very different than what you are saying.

Anyway thanks again.

AI simply cannot handle an interior river system port intelligently. So it occurs to me we might make a mod for AI players. Since AI also cannot handle the Allies, it would have to be AI as Japan. And since AI is weak, and one way to give it more power is to give it more to use/lose - that implies EOS might be the candidate scenario. Otherwise it might be CVO. Wether or not it is Soviet Active or Passive is a question? If passive, we could time delay the Soviet subs as in CVO and RPO. We could call it RHSAIO (AI Option). We might have to give it its own pwhex file - but if I define NO interior river system ports, probably not.

I will look forward to trying the RHSAIO if it gets off the ground. Will it be applicable to the level 7 project and while I'm asking, what scenarios do you plan to use with level 7?

Level 7 has all six main RHS scenarios already fully developed - ALL that is happening is integration of the map art, pwhex and location files (mainly because some locations must move in Australia now). Level 7 actually works for testing - the problem is that Australia is not functional. Doing South Island NZ now - North Island done - ship channels revised and finally testing the way I want them to (with a "triangular" South Atlantic movement option).

IF RHSAIO were based on RHSEOS (because the stronger Japanese position helps the AI as Japan)

should it be Russian Passive or Russian Active? There is currently no Russian Passive variant of EOS,

and the Russian river position in the North is so strong that taking out the Japanese probably means the

Russians also should be taken out. Few other interior river systems have this problem to much degree.

Anyway - does Russian Passive make sense?

I think the Russians should be passive to allow them the benefit of the other items that give the Japanese a stronger position. In the month and a half (game time) I played the EOS the Russian sub's took a pretty good toll from the Japanese shipping, unlike the U.S. subs with it's inferior torpedoes.

In addition, I was finding that with Japan using much of their assets supporting the attacks on Hawaii, Johnston Island, Midway and the quick attack to the south (Rabaul & Kavieng) that their thrust in Burma and toward the DEIs suffered considerably.

Also, the taking of the Hawaiian island Maui and trying to take Lanai only gives the Oahu recovering air units cannon fodder. Johnston and Midway are out of reach except for the B-17s and the Carrier TFs. It might be better to leave Maui and Lanai in favor of Palmyra and Christmas Is. Oh, and keep the Death Star in the area to police against the counter attack by the U.S. Carriers.

Just some thoughts.


BTW, I am not a Japanese Fan boy.