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AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:34 pm
by Froonp
Hey, no thread on this one ??? This is not serious !!! [:D]
First, a question :
Should the AI of China be a 2 headed hydra : Communist AIO & Nationalist AIO ?
IMO, no need for 2 AIO.
China is a one and only country, the only difference is that the Communist actions are counted on Russian activities limits.
Well, technically, Communist units are moved by the Russia player too, well this is a problem, but the general strategy for China is still a whole. It could be broken in two parts, but IMO this is not desirable.
So what are the plans for China in WiF FE ?
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:01 am
by npilgaard
Regarding setup:
First choice is whether to set up units east of Chang-Sa (i.e. protect the 'entire' Chinese controlled area) or set up a shorter defensive line in the mountains west of that city.
I will usually go for the first one, but that requires careful consideration on when to retreat, to avoid the units being cut off when the Japanese take the city.
However, since the MWiF map changes things i China dramatically, I think that the testers, who have actually tried playing in this theater, will have more valuable advice [:)]
I assume that one thing is still valid for the Chinese: try to defend and avoid being conquered. Build as many cheap land units as possible - INF (and maybe split them to DIVs), GAR, Warlords (if playing with that rule) - and maybe a single FTR or AA. Only when the cheap land units are pretty much built out or if Japan is engaged elsewhere in a major land-conflict (eg vs. Russia og CW) can other unit types be considered.
Regards
Nikolaj
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:39 am
by iamspamus
Huh, Patrice. I thought that the CC and Nationalists HISTORICALLY fought each other as much or more than they did the Japanese. Seems pretty hydra-like to me.
Jason
ORIGINAL: Froonp
Hey, no thread on this one ??? This is not serious !!! [:D]
First, a question :
Should the AI of China be a 2 headed hydra : Communist AIO & Nationalist AIO ?
IMO, no need for 2 AIO.
China is a one and only country, the only difference is that the Communist actions are counted on Russian activities limits.
Well, technically, Communist units are moved by the Russia player too, well this is a problem, but the general strategy for China is still a whole. It could be broken in two parts, but IMO this is not desirable.
So what are the plans for China in WiF FE ?
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:41 pm
by Frederyck
They may very well have been at each others throats all along, but in WiF this is only mirrored by the facts that they don't co-operate, and that the Communists are nominally controlled by the Russian player. I can't remember a game where a Russian player did something with the Communist Chinese that was totally against the wishes of the Nationalist player. Sometimes you just have to let the Communists stand where they are and not do anything because the Russian needs his moves, but nothing more than that.
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:16 pm
by composer99
In WiF:FE my group usually sets a few Nationalists up in the north so the Communists can concentrate their forces in two hexes and so they don't get outflanked right away.
That may or may not work as well with the new scale.
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:31 pm
by Shannon V. OKeets
Here are some screen shots so you can consider where to setup the Chinese (Global War scenario). It shouldn't be too hard to decipher this page. The lines of code identify type of unit and quantity. The unit lists show which ones are in the force pools and available for random selection. Communists are in the upper right.
The next 3 screen shots show the new map of China with flags indicating who controls what. Communist Chinese set up after the Nationalists and have to be within 6 hexes or less of Sian or Lanchow. They may only set up in a city if the city has been designated Communist.
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:34 pm
by Shannon V. OKeets
The heart of China.
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:36 pm
by Shannon V. OKeets
A more complete view of northern China.
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:42 pm
by Shannon V. OKeets
4th and last in the series.
A more complete view of southern China. Because the flags have been turned on, some of the city icons are not visible: Nanchang and Wuhan.
So, where do you setup the Chinese?
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:48 pm
by Froonp
A more complete view of southern China. Because the flags have been turned on, some of the city icons are not visible: Nanchang and Wuhan.
The city, port, factory, resource icons should be drawn above the flags.
The flags, even if partialy covered, can be guessed at, partly thanks to the neighboring flags. The symbols can't, and not seeing them is very bad.
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:49 pm
by Shannon V. OKeets
Yeah, I'll do that.
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:51 pm
by Froonp
So, where do you setup the Chinese?
You need to also mention the Japanese forces, so that Chinese setup can be tried.
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:06 am
by lomyrin
This looks like the China map with all the extra cities option on. The option with only some of the cities or for that matter the one with none of the extra cities will cause the setups to be quite different, I believe. With this map I would garrison Wuhan and the cities along the rails in southern China and the Chungking Mil, and sometimes also the Kunming Mil, in Chengchow to absorb a Japanese impulse. The Communists placed in the mountains flanking the approaches to Si An and in the mountain hex east of Si An
CWiF sets up both the Communist Mil's presumably as a help in the larger map from that of WiFFE.
The option using Warlords will further change the setup decisions.
Lars
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:00 am
by amwild
ORIGINAL: Froonp
A more complete view of southern China. Because the flags have been turned on, some of the city icons are not visible: Nanchang and Wuhan.
The city, port, factory, resource icons should be drawn above the flags.
The flags, even if partialy covered, can be guessed at, partly thanks to the neighboring flags. The symbols can't, and not seeing them is very bad.
Maybe when toggling flags on, they could appear above everything for a second or two, then be placed below these other objects. That way, we can see the flags clearly by toggling them off and on when necessary if they are obscured.
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:22 pm
by npilgaard
ORIGINAL: Froonp
So, where do you setup the Chinese?
You need to also mention the Japanese forces, so that Chinese setup can be tried.
Japan:
Setup in China: 1 HQ (Umezu), 5 INF, 2 MIL, 2 GAR, 2(3) FTR2, 2(3) LND2, 2 guns, 2 INF DIVs, 2 warlords (Shanghai, Peking)
If Japan decides to go heavily on China from the start, more units can be brought in.
Other units setup:
Japan: 1 HQ, 1 MIL, 2 MAR, 1 gun, 1 ENG
Manchuria/Korea: 1 HQ, 1 MOT, 1 MIL, 1 GAR, 1 CAV, 2 TERR
Asia/Pacific: 1 INF, 1(2) NAV2, 1 NAV3, 1 MAR DIV
China has 4 warlords (Chungking, Kunming, Lan-Chow, Cheng-Tu)
Btw, I think I once read something about unlimited number of (INF?) DIVs being available, because of the long frontline in China, and the difficulties of defending it with only a limited number of units. Is that (in many ways significant) change going to be implemented?
Regards
Nikolaj
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:11 pm
by composer99
The extra cities ameliorate the Chinese supply situation that existed in CWiF, and they also make up for Japan's newfound manoeuvrability by giving them extra USE rolls.
However, unless I were playtesting the China campaign (and I have no desire or time to be a beta tester just now), I don't really have any useful suggestions to make for China in this theatre.
I'll look at it, maybe print off the map images in this topic, and try and come up with some ideas over the weekend.
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:15 pm
by Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: npilgaard
ORIGINAL: Froonp
So, where do you setup the Chinese?
You need to also mention the Japanese forces, so that Chinese setup can be tried.
Japan:
Setup in China: 1 HQ (Umezu), 5 INF, 2 MIL, 2 GAR, 2(3) FTR2, 2(3) LND2, 2 guns, 2 INF DIVs, 2 warlords (Shanghai, Peking)
If Japan decides to go heavily on China from the start, more units can be brought in.
Other units setup:
Japan: 1 HQ, 1 MIL, 2 MAR, 1 gun, 1 ENG
Manchuria/Korea: 1 HQ, 1 MOT, 1 MIL, 1 GAR, 1 CAV, 2 TERR
Asia/Pacific: 1 INF, 1(2) NAV2, 1 NAV3, 1 MAR DIV
China has 4 warlords (Chungking, Kunming, Lan-Chow, Cheng-Tu)
Btw, I think I once read something about unlimited number of (INF?) DIVs being available, because of the long frontline in China, and the difficulties of defending it with only a limited number of units. Is that (in many ways significant) change going to be implemented?
Regards
Nikolaj
The optional rule for unlimited divisions has several constraints.
First, the only divisions that can be
Built are those units that are part of the WIF FE counter mix. You can't build 'new' divisions.
Second, only major powers can break down divisions. This is also true in WIF FE because of the counter mix.
Third, when a corps/army is broken down,
New divisions are created that are not part of the WIF FE counter mix.
Fourth, corps/armies that are broken down are set aside in a separate Broken Down Pool and are not immediately available to be built again. To make this clear, they do not go into the Force Pool. When (new) divisions are reformed into corps, then the corps are taken from the Broken Down Pool (only).
Fifth, when (new) divisions, that were created by breaking down a corps/army, are destroyed, they go into the Broken Down Pool.
Lastly, when it is possible for two divisions in the Broken Down Pool to be reformed into a corps/army, then that is done. The reformed corps/army is moved into the Force Pool so it can be rebuilt, and the divisons are vaporized into non-existence.
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:08 pm
by npilgaard
I have mended the 3 map files together to a single map - that makes it easier to use for testing of setup - for e.g. Cyberboard (for non-playtesters, who don't have acces to the MWiF map elsewhere).
Map is here:
http://www.geocities.com/npilgaard/MWiF_China.jpg
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:29 pm
by npilgaard
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The optional rule for unlimited divisions has several constraints.
First, the only divisions that can be Built are those units that are part of the WIF FE counter mix. You can't build 'new' divisions.
Second, only major powers can break down divisions. This is also true in WIF FE because of the counter mix.
Third, when a corps/army is broken down, New divisions are created that are not part of the WIF FE counter mix.
Fourth, corps/armies that are broken down are set aside in a separate Broken Down Pool and are not immediately available to be built again. To make this clear, they do not go into the Force Pool. When (new) divisions are reformed into corps, then the corps are taken from the Broken Down Pool (only).
Fifth, when (new) divisions, that were created by breaking down a corps/army, are destroyed, they go into the Broken Down Pool.
Lastly, when it is possible for two divisions in the Broken Down Pool to be reformed into a corps/army, then that is done. The reformed corps/army is moved into the Force Pool so it can be rebuilt, and the divisons are vaporized into non-existence.
Sounds very balanced.
Are the usual limitations on unit type still in effect? (i.e. INF corps turn into INF DIV + INF/MOT DIV) - if so, then in effect only INF corps (and maybe a CAV/MTN or two) can be split up for China (no MIL or GAR DIVs, I assume).
RE: AI for MWiF - China
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:38 pm
by Shannon V. OKeets
Yes the limitations on type still apply. However, the player gets to decide if he wants the second division to be regular infantry or motorized - not random, this is his choice. MIL and GAR can not be broken down.