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Question about devices
Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 8:26 pm
by hueglin
The manual states the following about devices:
Certain devices must be left in their assigned slots as follows:
- Industry items need to remain in slots 518-526.
- The atomic bomb needs to be in slot 213. The ohka bomb needs to be in slot 197.
- Aircraft engines and various support squads need to remain
in slots 236-256.
Furthermore:
- Only Allied devices should be located in slots 137, 138, and
315-517.
- Only Japanese devices should be located in slots 139, 237-
249, and 255-314.
Does this mean that devices in other slots can be used by both sides - example - could the device for a naval gun be used on a Japanese ship and an Allied ship, or would they need separate device entries?
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:52 pm
by el cid again
This is a very confusing matter because it is not fully documented. But, in general, certain kinds of devices are restricted to certain slot ranges. For example, low slots are for ship weapons. Higher slots are for land unit devices/squads. In between are certain slots that work for aircraft. And some slots are hard coded for certain purposes. Only a few slots work for radar devices for example - and most of those are side specific. Many devices can work for both sides - but should not - because the pools get messed up. But above a certain value, that isn't true, because there are no replacements or production anyway. Confused yet? If not, you don't understand the undocumented mess we have sufficiently yet: I promise - sooner or later you will be confused. The Forum is the best place to find answers. Search, ask, etc. And combine that with testing any idea you have.
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 11:03 pm
by JeffroK
To reword the question, are any slots neutral?
If you look at the restrictions posted by Hueglin there are a lot of spots without any APPARENT restrictions.
Alternatly, copy the data from one slot and create a copy in an empty slot, in CHS i'm sure there were plenty extra, maybe a lot tighter in the RHS scenarios.
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:29 am
by el cid again
Slots used by both sides are in some sense neutral. Thus, engineers, support, etc are "neutral" - and it is not at all clear how production works for both sides for such slots?
RHS also allocates "wrong" slots on purpose on occasion. RHS also uses slots "above" the production range - in particular where production is not required. The key to this is testing to insure that your intent is accomplished.
At the moment RHS is freeing up slots - for the sake of modders.
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:40 am
by Jo van der Pluym
ORIGINAL: el cid again
At the moment RHS is freeing up slots - for the sake of modders.
El Cid Again
Have you this done for the upcoming frozen versions X.68? Or is this later?
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:47 am
by Kereguelen
ORIGINAL: hueglin
Does this mean that devices in other slots can be used by both sides - example - could the device for a naval gun be used on a Japanese ship and an Allied ship, or would they need separate device entries?
To answer your question: Yes.
Any "free" slot (as you already listed the restricted slots) below slot 237 is usable for both sides if employed on ships and/or aircraft.
And you may use devices found in slots in this range (at least) for the Japanese side (for example: the 4.7in/45 3YT Naval Gun in slot 10 may be used in Japanese Coastal Artillery Regiments - the AI will produce them). May be useful, if you need free slots.
Did not test what happens when one uses "Allied" devices (for example: the 5in/38 Mk 22 Naval Gun in slot 23) in this manner (but may work if one gives them monthly production).
[As a sidenote to clear things: Ship and aircraft weapons are never "produced"]
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:58 am
by el cid again
Apparently not. Aircraft weapons are "free" (you pay for them by spending HI points for airframe I guess). Ship weapons probably are paid for by HI points related to the ship value. This appears related to (but is not purely) durability - and putting more weapons on a ship make the cost go up. Even so, you are NOT buying the weapons in the sense of buying each device in the sense land units do. Land units need to spend armaments points or HI points (depending on the device type / slot) -- and here things get messy. Who gets to use a device produced (or in a pool)?
Inside some slot ranges the answer is clear - but other times it is not clear.
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:59 am
by hueglin
Thanks to everyone who replied. This subject looks like it could use a thread of its own where modders can collect and share what they have learned about this "fuzzy" subject through trial and error. Perhaps it could be called "Device Allocation".
I'm new to all of this as I have only just finished making my beta version of my map and am still completing the wpohex.dat file (I'm using WPO). Eventually I hope to create a 1914 OOB for the US/Britain/France/Germany/Italy/Russia and Austria-Hungary, then South America.
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 11:03 am
by hueglin
ORIGINAL: JeffK
To reword the question, are any slots neutral?
If you look at the restrictions posted by Hueglin there are a lot of spots without any APPARENT restrictions.
Alternatly, copy the data from one slot and create a copy in an empty slot, in CHS i'm sure there were plenty extra, maybe a lot tighter in the RHS scenarios.
What happens if you just create a new device by inputting new data into a blank device listing without copying a previously existing device. Will it still work?
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 11:22 am
by Dili
I agree hueglin this a much needed topic for candidates to modding like me, not only for this issue but for all others too.
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 12:47 pm
by treespider
ORIGINAL: hueglin
ORIGINAL: JeffK
To reword the question, are any slots neutral?
If you look at the restrictions posted by Hueglin there are a lot of spots without any APPARENT restrictions.
Alternatly, copy the data from one slot and create a copy in an empty slot, in CHS i'm sure there were plenty extra, maybe a lot tighter in the RHS scenarios.
What happens if you just create a new device by inputting new data into a blank device listing without copying a previously existing device. Will it still work?
Yes
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:07 pm
by treespider
Tanjman posted this in an earlier thread...
wdolson,
Attached is a Scenario Editor FAQ I've been working on - sources are the WitP Manual, Editor Manual and the WitP Forums. Its still a work inprogress so there may be some errors and there is definately some missing data.
Scenario Editor FAQ
Slot Restrictions:
Devices:
Certain devices must be left in their assigned slots as follows:
- Industry items need to remain in slots 518-526.
- The atomic bomb needs to be in slot 213.
- The ohka bomb needs to be in slot 197.
- Aircraft engines and various support squads need to remain in slots 236-256.
Furthermore:
- Only Allied devices should be located in slots 137, 138, and 315-517.
- Only Japanese devices should be located in slots 139, 237-249, and 255-314.
These devices can be altered, but they should never be moved.
Ship Classes:
Certain ship classes must be left in their assigned slots as follows:
- Japanese Ship Classes need to be located in slots 1-171 and 501-1199.
- Allied Ship Classes need to be located in slots 172-499 and 1200-1999.
These devices can be altered, but they should never be moved.
Automatic Ship Replacements:
Note 1: Takes approximately 550 days from the date the original ship was sunk.
Note 2: USN CVs and USN/RAN CAs must have sunk prior to 01Jan44.
Note 3: Any minesweeper of any nationality will be replaced by a similar minesweeper.
Slot 0195 - this slot is hard coded for the Baltimore class CA re-spawn of USN and RAN CAs.
Slot 0208 - this slot is hard coded for the Cleveland class CL re-spawn of USN and RAN CAs.
Slot 0240 - this slot is hard coded for the Essex class CV re-spawn of USN early war CVs.
Slot xxxx - this lsot is hard coded for the re-spawn of Allied Minesweepers?
Slot xxxx - this lsot is hard coded for the re-spawn of Japanese Minesweepers?
Slot 0359 - this slot is hard coded for the Allied Large AK (capacity >5,000) conversion to MLE.
Slot xxxx - this slot is hard coded for the Allied Large AK (capacity >5,000) conversion to AE.
Slot xxxx - this slot is hard coded for the Allied Large AK (capacity >5,000) conversion to AR.
Slot xxxx - this slot is hard coded for the Allied Large AK (capacity >5,000) conversion to AS.
Slot xxxx - this slot is hard coded for the Allied Large AK (capacity >5,000) conversion to AV.
Slot xxxx - this slot is hard coded for the Allied Large AK (capacity >5,000) conversion to AD.
Slot 0384 - this slot is hard coded for the Allied PG conversion to AGP.
Slot 0385 - this slot is hard coded for the Allied LST conversion to AGP.
Slot 0108 - this slot is hard coded for the Japanese Large AK (capacity >5,000) conversion to MLE.
Slot xxxx - this slot is hard coded for the Japanese Large AK (capacity >5,000) conversion to AE.
Slot 0090 - this slot is hard coded for the Japanese Large AK (capacity >5,000) conversion to AR.
Slot 0106 - this slot is hard coded for the Japanese Large AK (capacity >5,000) conversion to AS.
Slot xxxx - this slot is hard coded for the Japanese Large AK (capacity >5,000) conversion to AV.
Ships:
Up to 9,999 total ships may be created for each scenario. Certain ships must be left in their assigned slots as follows:
- Japanese ships must be located in slots 1-2999.
- Allied ships must be located in slots 3000-9999.
These devices can be altered, but they should never be moved.
Slot 0037 - this slot is hard coded to upgrade the Chitose from a CS to a CVL - Slot 0560 - it takes 180 days for the conversion.
Slot 0038 - this slot is hard coded to upgrade the Chiyoda from a CS to a CVL - Slot 0560 - it takes 180 days for the conversion.
Slot 0051 - this slot is hard coded to upgrade the Ise to a BB with a high floatplane capacity - Slot 0514 - it takes 330 days for the conversion.
Slot 0052 - this slot is hard coded to upgrade the Hyuga to a BB with a high floatplane capacity - Slot 0514 - it takes 330 days for the conversion.
Aircraft:
Certain Aircraft types must be left in their assigned slots as follows:
- Japanese aircraft types must be located in slots 1-76.
- Of these Japanese aircraft, slots 1-8 and 14-24 and 76 may operate from carriers.
- Allied aircraft types must be located in slots 77-249.
- Of these Allied aircraft, slots 77-101 and 243-249 may operate from carriers.
These devices can be altered, but they should never be moved.
Slot 003 - this slot is hard coded for the Zero Bonus.
Slot 028 - this slot is hard coded for the ohka bomb capable bomber.
Slot 201 - this slot is hard coded for the B-29 Superfortress nuclear capable bomber.
Item 13 - Aircraft slots 8, 14 and 24 and 76 have been changed to carrier capable for the Japanese and slots 243
to 249, for Allies.
Item 43 - Activate Four additional Aircraft icon sets.
There are 249 aircraft but currently only 244 sets of aircraft artwork. Have found that this can be easily expanded to 248. Expansion to 249 is not easily available as the artwork comes in sets of four and the system will not support 252.
NOTE: this will not affect stock scenarios but can be used for modified scenarios, which have run up to the 244 limit.
Note 01 - All aircraft speeds should be converted to knots:
1 knot = 1.853 kph
1 knot = 1.152 mph
Air Groups:
Certain Air Groups must be left in their assigned slots as follows:
- Japanese Air Groups must be located in slots 1-949.
- Allied Air Groups must be located in slots 950-2399.
These devices can be altered, but they should never be moved.
Slot 1071 - this slot is hard coded for the anti-Zero/AVG bonus.
Slot 1618 - this slot is hard coded for the B-29 squadron that drops the nuclear bomb.
Locations:
Certain Locations must be left in their assigned slots as follows:
- Japanese HQ’s must be located in slots 1-98.
- Allied HQ’s must be located in slots 100-215.
- Bases must be located in slots 217-900. Do not move any Base to a different slot as some parts of the game program
assume these bases are in their current slots.
- Japanese ground units must be located in slots 979-1999. (976 LCUs)
- Slots 1940-1979 must be left open as these are the slots used by Japanese Militia ground units that are automatically
mobilised in 1945.
- Slots 1980-1983 must be left open as these are the slots used by Japanese North Vietnamese militia units that are
mobilized each time (up to a maximum of four) an Allied unit moves into a border hex inside North Vietnam (from China to
Hue).
- Allied ground units must be located in slots 2120-3499. (1379 LCUs)
- Japanese TO&E’s must be located in slots 901-977.
- Allied TO&E’s must be located in slots 2001-2119.
- Japanese TF’s must be located in slots 3500-3899.
- Allied TF’s must be located in slots 3900-3999.
These devices can be altered, but they should never be moved.
Slot 0002 - this slot is hard coded as a Japanese restricted command.
Slot 0003 - this slot is hard coded as a Japanese restricted command.
Slot 0004 - this slot is hard coded as a Japanese non-restricted command.
Slot 0005 - this slot is hard coded as a Japanese non-restricted command.
Slot 0007 - this slot is hard coded as a Japanese restricted command.
Slot 0008 - this slot is hard coded as a Japanese non-restricted command.
Slot 0020 - this slot is hard coded as a Japanese non-restricted command.
Slot 0027 - this slot is hard coded as a Japanese non-restricted command.
Slot 0xxx - this slot is hard coded as an Allied non-restricted command.
Slot 0xxx - this slot is hard coded as an Allied restricted command.
Item 49 - Adjusted editor Task Force ranges from 400 Japanese/100 Allied to 250/250.
Range is now 3500-3749 for Japanese and 3760-3999 for Allied. No affect on current games or stock scenarios - useful only to modders.
AAA Design Notes:
"Nikademus" and "michaelm" tested and discovered the following:
The dead zone lies between (not surprisingly) 6K and 9K feet.
Guns with max altitude of 26K feet have a min altitude of 7K.
Guns with max altitude of 28K feet have a min altitude of 7K.
Guns with max altitude of 30K feet have a min altitude of 8K.
Guns with max altitude of 34K feet have a min altitude of 9K.
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:50 pm
by Dili
Thanks Treespider; What means "support squads" it is just motorised support, support? And what means "Industry items"?
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 7:04 pm
by el cid again
RHS has been freeing up slots for some time now. It depends on the file how critical this is, and unfortunately
we have been most successful with the ship file, which is not quite as critical as the device file. However, we had essentially run out of ship slots, so it mattered. We have freed up a few slots of most kinds - and identified other potential slots - so this process will continue for at least one more release.
Note that RHS 5 and 6 are about to be more or less abandoned, except insofar as we may introduce seasonal maps,
or another scenario at all levels. This may happen within the next few days - as development is almost completed -
and "missing" ships almost all added - while only a few ships need combining into multiple ship units. Level 7 is experimental, but won't be in development very long - once any bugs are identified - we will abandon rapid development as well. We may go on to other kinds of scenarios, or we may attempt a modern war on this model (China's "strait crossing" operation vs US, Japan, Taiwan and Australia).
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 7:06 pm
by el cid again
ORIGINAL: hueglin
ORIGINAL: JeffK
To reword the question, are any slots neutral?
If you look at the restrictions posted by Hueglin there are a lot of spots without any APPARENT restrictions.
Alternatly, copy the data from one slot and create a copy in an empty slot, in CHS i'm sure there were plenty extra, maybe a lot tighter in the RHS scenarios.
What happens if you just create a new device by inputting new data into a blank device listing without copying a previously existing device. Will it still work?
Maybe. You won't get hidden fields - if any - which is the reason for the procedure. In some data sets you are dealing with fields you cannot see in the editor. I never looked at the device file in a non-editor environment to check this out.
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 7:09 pm
by el cid again
ORIGINAL: Dili
Thanks Treespider; What means "support squads" it is just motorised support, support? And what means "Industry items"?
Support squads are NON motorized support required by many land squads/weapons. Motorized support is the same idea with a truck - abstractly - I guess. Note that aviation support is a wierd case - it does NOT require support squads of either type - self supporting I guess.
Industry items are shipyards, heavy industry centers, engine plants, oil centers, etc.
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 5:48 am
by Dili
Thanks
RE: Question about devices
Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 1:48 pm
by Dili
I am editing my flavour of WITM devices, i have a lot of Japanese air to air guns wasting slots in 160-190 slot bracket, can i edit them for squads, CD guns and some AFVs?