Matrix Games Forums

What's everyone's opinion of the sub to sub detection/combat?

I'm of the opinion that in this era subs should not be able to combat other subs nor detect them if FOW is on. IE Subs sould just pass through hexes containing enemy subs and not see or attack/be attacked.

Comments?

Just happened to a guy I am playing ... I guess he took 3 hits .. but I am not sure ..
Did not want to ask him ... seems unfair ... i will see what he says ..

I would say that sub's should stop sub's ... they are a screen .. or used as such ..

I am using DD's and subs to screen my Italian CV Battlegroup in the East Med ....
Could someone pls tell me if troops in naval trans spot other units ..????[&:] .. number of hexes they do .. 1 .. 2 ..
I have seen some trans get hit 3 times and still be a 1 ... this is by BB or sub .. destroyers ...
seems they should just sink when hit by 2 decent units ..... other wise you are gonna have a gamey situation ...
Trans moving out to sea the other guys fleet ... with 20 pp .. garrisons ... so they die .. so what .. he does not hit my big units ... If he has no air .... and does not see there location ..
IDG

Yeah, that was me.[:'(] I didn't take any hits, the damn thing was damaged already... and yeah I was going for your carrier...[:@]

I agree subd should be able to screen against ships, but not subs. I don't believe that in WWII they had sufficient tech to detect/combat other subs.

Maybe I'm wrong... anyone?

ahhh, subs hunted subs in WWII
 
not as much a standard action as going after other ships, but enough that you can't say, it didn't happen

Alrighty then... I learned somthing today....that makes it a good one then eh?

Hard Sarge, do you have any info on this? I'd be very interested on reading about it. Sounds cool....

Trying to remember where I was reading that
 
but most of them I remember were in the PTO
 
IIRC, some of the subs that didn't make it home, after the war, they found info on there loss from enemy Sub Commanders logs
 
(don't know off hand of any underwater sub vs sub battles, but remember subs being caught on the surface by other subs they didn't see)

Yes as I recall several american subs sank or damaged japanese subs. Might find something in the WiTP forum on it.

Yep it happened .. not that often though .... I will look in the Tombs ...
My thought is that on this scale ... It would be detected ... attacked and ... hopefully sunk before he can go after my Italian Super CV .. battlegroup that is .... [:D]
IDG ...

I put him there so any naval unit arriving in the red sea route .... If he went straight north ....[;)]
This was previous to me amphibing into Port Said .. and capturing the red sea route ..
Stealthy bastards these U-boat ... But not when the run into a Wolf pack .. of Italians no less .. [8D]
IDG

Would also be nioce if they could put the Kiel Canal on the map ....
In 1939 .. German subs have 1 port to reinforce and hide in .. If you can call it that when the French BB's are blasting away at the U-boat pens ...[:-]
IDG

well, finally had a good patrol

went and hid, and then found the sea lane I wanted, took out a few convoys completely, but the hunter killers finally wised up and almost caught me, trying to limp home now, but sub Stats look the same (they both made high speed runs, so there Eff is a lower then it should be)

they took out 2 54 point convoys, a few 18-24 ones, and damaged a few others that slipped past (I would only chase so far)

The jury is still out on Subs for me.  I find the Allies simply overwhelm them when they attack a transport but maybe I am just not waiting for the correct transports.  Seems you dont want the really big convoys but those around 20 so a total kill leaves them invisible again.

After seeing the complete and utter devestation of the Allied convoys .. and the staggering losses they received ..
If you could ever get Uk to Her knees .. And exploit the situation with the Axis ..
U-boat fleet .. w all those .. Iron Crosses I am contacting Speer as I speak ..
Outstanding .. any tech involved ..??? [&:]
IDG

no tech, level 0 Subs, got them into the right place at the right time, they going to get slaughtered this time out, the Allies just got too many ships out there
 
but got to say, in the long run, the AI saved England this time around, it let me go wild with my subs, but left most of its fleet close to France, I couldn't even try a Sealoin
 
and of course, just as they pulled there fleets away, is when the Russians joined the war

By 1942 w some new U-boat ..
Here we go ..!! [:D]
IDG

The German sub fleet was extremely small until 41.  They simply were not building them.  That changed dramatically in 41.  In 39 and 40 the Germans only had 17 U Boats according the World at War Series I just watched.  I was really surprised at how small a force they had.

ORIGINAL: targul

The German sub fleet was extremely small until 41. They simply were not building them. That changed dramatically in 41. In 39 and 40 the Germans only had 17 U Boats according the World at War Series I just watched. I was really surprised at how small a force they had.

IIRC, Germany had more than that number, but I believe 17 was the number of subs operational at any one time. Still, quite a small number compared to the size of the Atlantic...

[:(]The subs are a waste in this game, they are dead meat once they attack. Its sad, I had high hopes on them being a great tool for strategy in this game. I had 7 subs in a wolf pack and lost everyone of them in 2 turns after we attacke a convoy. The destroyers are too strong versus the subs, a sub has no chance against them.

I also gave up with the subs eventually after my wolfpack of 2 died.  7 seems like a huge number!  It just didn't seem cost efficient to me, as a couple of subs could only destroy maybe 10-15 PP per turn and they could only survive a couple of turns.  Heck it costs 70PP to buy a sub so it's not really worth it.  In the end, I just forgot about the Atlantic and put all my resources into the Eastern front.

Here is a guide to using subs in commander (from Slitherine's website):

Hints for Axis sub warfare:

- A good sub is a living sub. Do not overdo, do not use the Subs too early (wait until France falls), wait until you have numbers, TECH and use them in packs. Do not use them on the "water highways" near Britain unless you really have a stronger navy than the Allies have (quite unlikley but sometimes possible if they sent alot of navy to the Mediterranean). The golden age of Subs is probably in 1941-1943 so make sure you have not been doing prematurely fruitless attempts spoiling this opportunity.

- Use the Sub in combination with other threats because UK has a limited budget. After France surrender, pressuring UK by using air duels and bombing UK cities (will cost UK alot intercepting) combined with Italian naval action in the Mediterranean (might divert some UK navy there to help out near Egypt) and combined with a pack of 4-5 Axis subs showing up in some far west location attacking convoy means UK cannot afford doing all at once.

- Do not think you can fight the whole royal navy instead hit & move. Try to find a new place to hit again some turns later. Count UK Destroyers, if you see they have built destroyers then you know you need to be more cautious and await more tech and new subs to be strong enough. Often UK cannot afford building destroyers, investing in tech, replacing air casualties over Britain an help out Egypt at the same time so just be smart and do not overdo or kill yourself because if you mess up it will take the pressure off the UK.

- There are 3 convoy routes and protecting them all means Allies need to use 1/3 of its navy while Axis can focus them all in one big pack. Use this to your advantage but do not stand too close to the large ant hill (=UK) because standing in the middle of the trail you will be attacked.

- Use the Sub invisibility feature to your advantage. Remember as soon as you attack you become spottable to the enemy. Sometimes a large sub pack can even neglect attacking with all Subs just to leave some of them covering and doing a suprise attack on the first incoming ships that try to attack your newly spotted Subs. The turn after your attacks on convoys you can just move again and become invisible.

Sort of curious about this. I've played 4 games or so against the AI (even) just to get a feel for things, and subs haven't been as bad for me as what people are saying, in fact they're pretty good. You have to be very careful in the early stages until you build up numbers. Otherwise you get slaughtered. And don't stick around in the same area for too liI sortie everyhting as commerce raiders (surface included as soon as Denmark falls) and back them up with strategic bombers at Brest. I try to pick off the RN as it supports the convoys, especially carriers. It takes a while but by 43-44 I've pretty much had the Atlantic to myself as the AI does not seem to replace naval units.