Matrix Games Forums

Hello,

I was posting this to Harry Rowland a couple of days ago, discussing another matter (pilots), but drifting from the discussion :

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Also, I'd love if the computer game allowed for Pilots to earn exerience.
- Pilots begin as green pilots (-1 to all factors except range - minimum 1).
- After their first (or second) involvement in a combat they become normal pilots.
- After 5 more involvements in combats they become aces (+1 to all factors except range).
- After 20 total involvements in combats, they become cracks (+2 to all factors except range - maximum double initial factor - or only +1 but roll twice and take the best).
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And he answered :
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Sounds an excellent idea for the computer game Patrice. Have you suggested it to Matrix?
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So why not add something like that : Experience of Crews. This seems trivial to add to the game, from a programming point of view.

This could also be used for the Army and the Navy, having Crews' Experience raise with combat experience, and modify the counter's factors (except movement & range).

Normally I would be against this as not being a true reflection of the boardgame but given Harry's response it certainly warrants discussion. Planes would be a natural given the nature of (almost) single combat but how would you propose that this is translated to the army/ navy? On a battleship for example there is such a range of experience that it would not seem appropriate. The land forces though, could easily be -1 combat factor on the turn that they arrive on map to +1 after ?? 6 turns with white print / elite units immune.

Christo

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Hello,

I was posting this to Harry Rowland a couple of days ago, discussing another matter (pilots), but drifting from the discussion :

*********************************
Also, I'd love if the computer game allowed for Pilots to earn exerience.
- Pilots begin as green pilots (-1 to all factors except range - minimum 1).
- After their first (or second) involvement in a combat they become normal pilots.
- After 5 more involvements in combats they become aces (+1 to all factors except range).
- After 20 total involvements in combats, they become cracks (+2 to all factors except range - maximum double initial factor - or only +1 but roll twice and take the best).
*********************************

And he answered :
*********************************
Sounds an excellent idea for the computer game Patrice. Have you suggested it to Matrix?
*********************************

So why not add something like that : Experience of Crews. This seems trivial to add to the game, from a programming point of view.

This could also be used for the Army and the Navy, having Crews' Experience raise with combat experience, and modify the counter's factors (except movement & range).

Dont u think this would seriously unbalance the game?? - Imagine a barbarossa ...all the GE fighters & Tacs have either +1 or +0 to their factors ...while the USSR planes all have -1 ... - I like the rule though, but isnt it already kind of implied in the stats of the planes??

Also how would u define combat? is it A2A or would a successful "mission" qualify? ei. such as conducting an unopposed strategic bombardment, ground strike or how about combat air patrol?! Also u call it pilot experience would that imply that u can transfer a veteran pilot from one aircraft to another, if so and if by combat u mean "mission" I can suddenly see a key "training" role for all those crappy aircraft ...

ORIGINAL: christo

Normally I would be against this as not being a true reflection of the boardgame but given Harry's response it certainly warrants discussion.

Yes, that's why I asked. Moreover, this would be an option, and playing without that option you would be in a true reflection of the boardgame.

Planes would be a natural given the nature of (almost) single combat but how would you propose that this is translated to the army/ navy? On a battleship for example there is such a range of experience that it would not seem appropriate. The land forces though, could easily be -1 combat factor on the turn that they arrive on map to +1 after ?? 6 turns with white print / elite units immune.

I've written it all consistently for the Air Force, Navy and Army :

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There are 4 Crew Experience levels. The experience level changes during the production step. All units begin the game at the Normal Experience level :

For the Air Force :
Green : Planes are -1 to all factors except range (minimum 1) on the first turn on the map, until after the first combat (air to air combat or air mission other than rebase or CAP & escort that produces no combat).
Normal : Factors go back to normal the turn after their first involvement in a combat (air to air combat or air mission other than rebase or CAP & escort that produces no combat).
Ace : Factors are +1 on all factors except range after 5 more involvements in combats (air to air combat or air mission other than rebase or CAP & escort that produces no combat).
Crack : Factors are +2 on all factors except range (maximum double initial factor - or only +1 but roll twice and take the best) after 20 total involvements in combats (air to air combat or air mission other than rebase or CAP & escort that produces no combat).
Crew experience goes back 1 level after the plane goes back to the reserve pool, or the plane is aborted in combat. Example, an Ace crew would go back to Normal, a Normal to Green, a Crack to Ace, etc... A green would stay green.

For the Navy :
Green : Factors are -1 on all factors except range, movement & carrier class (minimum 1) on the first turn on the map, until after the shakedown cruise.
Normal : Factors back to normal the turn after the shakedown cruise. The shakedown cruise is the first naval movement that ends in a sea box section, where the ship returns to base at the return to base step. Movements from port to port would not count as the shakedown cruise. Movement at sea that do not stay at sea until the end of the turn would not count neither.
Ace : Factors are +1 on all factors except range, movement & carrier class after 5 combats in which the ship was involved.
Crack : Factors are +2 on all factors except range, movement & carrier class (maximum double initial factors) after 20 combats in which the ship was involved.
Crew experience goes back to Green status after the ship is bottomed. Crew experience goes back 1 level in case of damaged ship. Example, an Ace crew would go back to Normal, a Normal to Green, a Crack to Ace, etc...

For the Army :
MAR & PARA and White Print units would begin at the normal status.
Green : Combat Factor is -1 (minimum 1) on the first turn on the map, until after the meeting with the enemy.
Normal : Factors back to normal after the meeting with the enemy. The meeting with the enemy is the first time when the unit finishes the turn in an enemy ZoC.
Ace : Combat Factor is +1 after 5 combats in which the unit was involved.
Crack : Combat Factor is +2 (maximum double initial factors) (and maybe gain white print status) after 20 combats in which the unit was involved.
Crew experience goes back 1 level after the unit is shattered (or Breakthrough'ed). Example, an Ace crew would go back to Normal, a Normal to Green, a Crack to Ace, etc...
GBA are also be subject to this rule.
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Edit : Added the CAP & escort that produce no combat in the Air Force part, and the carrier class in the navy part.

ORIGINAL: CBoehm
Dont u think this would seriously unbalance the game?? - Imagine a barbarossa ...all the GE fighters & Tacs have either +1 or +0 to their factors ...while the USSR planes all have -1 ... - I like the rule though, but isnt it already kind of implied in the stats of the planes??

Well, as I have written it, the Soviet Fighters would all be at Normal level of experience. The Germans could possibly have reached Ace status, but not more IMO.

Also how would u define combat? is it A2A or would a successful "mission" qualify? ei. such as conducting an unopposed strategic bombardment, ground strike or how about combat air patrol?!

As I have written it would be : An air to air combat or air mission other than rebase.
I think that CAP that does not end up in the previous would not count, as well as an escort of a mission that is not intercepted.

Also u call it pilot experience would that imply that u can transfer a veteran pilot from one aircraft to another, if so and if by combat u mean "mission" I can suddenly see a key "training" role for all those crappy aircraft ...

I have written it so that when the plane goes back to the reserve pool then the level of experience decrease by one level.
Also, when the unit suffer battle losses (an abort is just that), the level of experience decrease by one.

One can always reach chrome level 2 :

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Experience acquired through training
Only combat can allow units to reach the Ace or Crack levels of experience.

Choice A
Units built normally enter the map at the Normal level of Crew Experience.
Units built in 1 turn less duration enter the map at the Green level of Crew Experience.

Choice B
Units built normally enter the map at the Green level of Crew Experience (except MAR & PARA).
Units can enter the map at the Normal level of Crew Experience if 1 extra turn of building time is spent.

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I like the rules but would maybe tone them down a bit.

Remove the crack level. +2 on a few key units is maybe to powerful.

A loss only pulls a unit back from Ace to Normal a Normal still stays at normal and is not reduced to green, otherwise a side that starts losing would be losing even quicker.

There would be questions of

• how to allocate your Crack crews to your best fighters then reallocate them when better aircraft become available.
• does your opponent know they are fighting Crack crews before allocating casualties ("so sorry Herr Bader... I pick for you to die")

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

There would be questions of

• how to allocate your Crack crews to your best fighters then reallocate them when better aircraft become available.

In what I've written, this is taken care of. When the aircraft goes to the Reserve pool, the crew loose 1 level.

• does your opponent know they are fighting Crack crews before allocating casualties ("so sorry Herr Bader... I pick for you to die")

A golden star would appear on Ace units (or their factor would be gold colored), and 2 stars on crack units (or their factor could be otherwise colored). Green units would have some sort of symbol too.
Casualties are allocated normaly, as they already are in the combat rules.

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

I like the rules but would maybe tone them down a bit.

Remove the crack level. +2 on a few key units is maybe to powerful.

Why not.

A loss only pulls a unit back from Ace to Normal a Normal still stays at normal and is not reduced to green, otherwise a side that starts losing would be losing even quicker.

Yes, this is good too. As I wrote that an Abort or a return to the Reserve Pool would make the unit loose 1 level, and aborts are somehow frequents. But I would keep it for damaged naval units and shattered land units, loosing 1 level whatever.

What is the definition of combat an overrun, an invasion against a notional, an attack of a partisan?

To avoid cheesy moves like invading empty out of supply island hexes I think a combat needs to have +20 or less on the 2d10 table or less than 10-1 odds on 1D10.

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

What is the definition of combat an overrun, an invasion against a notional, an attack of a partisan?

I would say any combat against an enemy that has more than 0 combat factors count. I'd say that Overruns on an enemy that has more than 0 combat factors count too.

To avoid cheesy moves like invading empty out of supply island hexes I think a combat needs to have +20 or less on the 2d10 table or less than 10-1 odds on 1D10.

I'd just say that the enemy needs to have more than 0 combat factors for the combat to count.

I like your ideas about gaining experience levels. IMO everything to tone down abstraction of the corps sized land and air units a little bit, without being a clickfeast, is a good thing. This will give a personal character to units.

Any chance to connect pilot training with oil spending? Does pilot production in WIF cost Oil?

Fine-tuning of the experience level would have to be part of play-testing.

Question is: How much work is it to program unit experience? Will Steve do it? Is there enough room for graphical representation, like experience stars, on the unit counters?

Regards


P.S.: Historically, the interdependency of training, ressources, and strategy was important:
- As we all know, lack of oil hampered Luftwaffe and Japanese airforces' quality.
- Germanys reluctance to withdraw from the Baltic states in 1944, partly, was motivated by the wish to secure the Baltic Sea as a training ground for U-boats.

Combat aginst enemy with more than 0 in combat factors would work, prevents the invasion against 0 notinals.

I think you would have to play using oil with this rule otherwise you would make sure to use your aircraft every turn to manage to get them to ace status, you might see that anyhow.
You would probably see more groundstrikes in the winter turns when you wouldn't attack anyhow to give your stukas some experience, but since you need to perform 5 missions before ace status I don't mind it that much as it'll be a year before a unit becomes an ace.

If during playtesting it is showned that to many units become aces, An alternative to just count the combats the unit has been in could be to count the time's the unit accomplished something, aborted/shot down and airplane, flipped an opponent, hit a factory, killed retreated or shattered an opponent.

Also, DIV sized units should not be affected by this rule, they are too small and their factors are too small too.

Question is: How much work is it to program unit experience? Will Steve do it? Is there enough room for graphical representation, like experience stars, on the unit counters?

I bet Steve would prefer not to add this to MWiF product1, even if it is demonstrated that it is not hard to integrate to the game, it reprensents more unwelcomed work.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Hello,

I was posting this to Harry Rowland a couple of days ago, discussing another matter (pilots), but drifting from the discussion :

*********************************
Also, I'd love if the computer game allowed for Pilots to earn exerience.
- Pilots begin as green pilots (-1 to all factors except range - minimum 1).
- After their first (or second) involvement in a combat they become normal pilots.
- After 5 more involvements in combats they become aces (+1 to all factors except range).
- After 20 total involvements in combats, they become cracks (+2 to all factors except range - maximum double initial factor - or only +1 but roll twice and take the best).
*********************************

And he answered :
*********************************
Sounds an excellent idea for the computer game Patrice. Have you suggested it to Matrix?
*********************************

So why not add something like that : Experience of Crews. This seems trivial to add to the game, from a programming point of view.

This could also be used for the Army and the Navy, having Crews' Experience raise with combat experience, and modify the counter's factors (except movement & range).

This idea:

(1) Is Unnecessary; if you wish to do this I suggest you try a more tactical and less strategic game such as “Campaigns for North Africa” or “Richtoffens War”.
(2) Is Unrealistic; Need I remind you of the scale of the game? An aircraft unit represents 250 aircraft in 1939 gradually increasing to 500 aircraft by 1945.
(3) Is not part of the RaW WiFFE 7.0 It has been posted several times by Matrix developers “no new code not covered in the RaW”.
(4) It unbalances the game.


IMO this is along the same lines as “Special Forces”, giving advantages to land units with gas operated rifles, and PT boats. This is something that would affect a tactical game that has no place in a strategic game.

If this is allowed then things that need to be considered are:

(1) Pilot rotation.
(2) Change of aircraft.
(3) Change of opponent/theater.
(4) Type of enemy aircraft fought.
(5) Etc.

ORIGINAL: c92nichj
I think you would have to play using oil with this rule otherwise you would make sure to use your aircraft every turn to manage to get them to ace status, you might see that anyhow.
You would probably see more groundstrikes in the winter turns when you wouldn't attack anyhow to give your stukas some experience, but since you need to perform 5 missions before ace status I don't mind it that much as it'll be a year before a unit becomes an ace.

More than one mission can be made per turn by Stukas, who often are reorganized during the turn. Also, each mission flown is a risk of air to air combat and Anti Air fire, and losses suffered (a simple Abort) mean a loss of experience of the air unit. IMO it would be rare to have Air units of ace level units and maybe exceptionnal to have crack Air units.
It is sure that this rule should be used along with the oil rule, I had this in mind as the oil rule is part of my group's bag of rules, and playing without the oil rule sure encourage to more missions flown.

If during playtesting it is showned that to many units become aces, An alternative to just count the combats the unit has been in could be to count the time's the unit accomplished something, aborted/shot down and airplane, flipped an opponent, hit a factory, killed retreated or shattered an opponent.

Completely right.

If this is implemented I hope it is as an optional rule.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Also, DIV sized units should not be affected by this rule, they are too small and their factors are too small too.

A shame I would have thought that the 4-2 Art would be one of the fastest units to advance to Ace status.... During the first year it participates in almost every single combat on the german side, when I play