Matrix Games Forums

Someone tried to do a combination of RHSAIO and RHSCVO. It didn't work out - yet - but it did cause me to wonder:

is there any interest in an AI version of CVO???

In principle, one can fairly easily combine the AIO location file with the other CVO files - only a few Japanese LCU then need to change to CVO form. Such a scenario would feature passive Russians, no interior river systems, and a wierd combination of PPO political points for the Allies but restricted political points for the AI controlled Japanese. [All these are reasons I would not be interested in it: I didn't develop active Russians, interior river systems, or political points not to use them, after all!]

The reason AIO uses EOS as its base is that AI is dumb - and Japan is weak to begin with - so a stronger Japan compensates for a dumb AI to make it more challenging. But someone wanting to practice CVO before taking on a human opponant - or someone offended by less than strict historical decision making - might prefer an AI controlled Japan in CVO.

The question is - I repeat - is there any significant interest in such a scenario?

I'm certainly looking forward to a finalized CVO variant after the eventually upcoming patch.

I'm definately _NOT_ interested in any AI based scenarios that do not help the AI to do better than in stock.

Sid,

My preferred RHS scenario is CVO and any AI assistance would be most appreciated as I play Allies against AI Japan ( temporarrily on hold , waiting to find out when v7 will be frozen to enable a restart )

DavidR

Absolutely!!! I am playing AIO now and enjoying it but it is really not my cup of tea. I am in the third week of the war and with all the emphasis that Japan has directed toward Hawaii area they have allowed me to salvage almost anything I want out of the Philippines, Borneo, East Indies, Singapore peninsula and Rangoon. Also the Borneo invasion fleet get battered by Allied surface TFs. At issue is the lack of aircraft pressure and Carrier TFs in those area.

Additional after the first week the Maui occupation ends up being cannon fodder and an experience builder for US Forces.

Also am not too much into all the non-historical Japanese aircraft.

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

I'm certainly looking forward to a finalized CVO variant after the eventually upcoming patch.

I'm definately _NOT_ interested in any AI based scenarios that do not help the AI to do better than in stock.

CVO is essentially finalized now. There will be no more upgrades in Level 5 or 6 until after a Matrix update - and not then either if it isn't required (although I think, unusually, this time it will be). After extensive human testing - we will see. Level 7 may upgrade when EEO finalizes - but so far no reason for that has been detected - and what work remains is dedicated to EEO.

AI will do better than in stock because RHS does some things more efficiently than in stock. Not least of these is attention to production of aircraft and engines. Regretfully you can upgrade aircraft models only one time - but within that limit - we try to help air units in particular. Similarly, ships will upgrade to better forms than existed in stock. It isn't enough, but it is something.

ORIGINAL: DavidR


Sid,

My preferred RHS scenario is CVO and any AI assistance would be most appreciated as I play Allies against AI Japan ( temporarrily on hold , waiting to find out when v7 will be frozen to enable a restart )

DavidR

No significant changes will occur for some time. Only EEO is being developed - and no reason to modify anything else has yet been detected. We will probably deep freeze tomorrow.

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Absolutely!!! I am playing AIO now and enjoying it but it is really not my cup of tea. I am in the third week of the war and with all the emphasis that Japan has directed toward Hawaii area they have allowed me to salvage almost anything I want out of the Philippines, Borneo, East Indies, Singapore peninsula and Rangoon. Also the Borneo invasion fleet get battered by Allied surface TFs. At issue is the lack of aircraft pressure and Carrier TFs in those area.

Additional after the first week the Maui occupation ends up being cannon fodder and an experience builder for US Forces.

Also am not too much into all the non-historical Japanese aircraft.


Well - AI is stupid. The AI puts too much pressure on KB to move West too soon to work. And there is a carrier force there to begin with. In reality this scenario should make it easier for Japan in the west - but you are too skilled and AI is not.

The aircraft are not a big deal - they represent what could have been done - and none are actually 'non-historical' - I don't do stuff like that. It is not the types that matter so much as sharing types between JAAF and JNAF as appropriate.

"Well - AI is stupid. The AI puts too much pressure on KB to move West too soon to work. And there is a carrier force there to begin with. In reality this scenario should make it easier for Japan in the west - but you are too skilled and AI is not."
 
Sid, I may be jumping the gun with only three weeks in to the war, BUT, I am salvaging way to many assets.  I am by far an experience good player, but I have pretty good 20-20 hindsight (the best signet in the world).  I have started this game under stock, CHS and RHSCVO many times  I know how much or how little I can get and should get away with.
 
Look I am having fun, but don't discount my observations as something I am doing so great and the "stupid AI" is doing so bad.  Listen, there is not enough pressure in the west at the beginning and I am having my way with the Axis and it is the result of not enough Axis assets driving on Borneo, Rangoon and Java.  This allows me "mucho" oil for Australia and air and base units for India.  The Axis aircover needs to be there to make the Allies pay a big price for putting TFs in harms way.  Rangoon should not be a yacht harbor that it is in this game.
 
NOTE, I am a big supporter of the RHS concept and these thoughts are from an ally not an adversary.
 
Buck

I am also playing the RHS AIO scenario (Version 5). I'm into it about 4 weeks and find the AI to be very weak. I'm not actually trying to do anything. I sent i CV to Midway and one to Canton on turn one. I sent a small CACLDD force to one of the contested Islands for fear of losing one of my 4BBs undamaged after raid on Pearl Harbor. AI never took Hilo. Took Maui but never reinforced or moved significant air their. My BBs simply did night time bombardments starting on turn 3. I've not seen the Japs come back to the HI, so I'll starve them out.

I did notice one thing. The raid on pearl is not so effective, and follow up focuses soley on the single ships at sea in the area ignoring follow up strikes on the port. Can the be improved by chainging Jap 1st turn air setting to port from naval or is the AI chainging it. I realize they really would be looking for the allied CVs, but getting moderate damage on only 4BBs and 4 completely undamaged is not so good.

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

"Well - AI is stupid. The AI puts too much pressure on KB to move West too soon to work. And there is a carrier force there to begin with. In reality this scenario should make it easier for Japan in the west - but you are too skilled and AI is not."

Sid, I may be jumping the gun with only three weeks in to the war, BUT, I am salvaging way to many assets.  I am by far an experience good player, but I have pretty good 20-20 hindsight (the best signet in the world).  I have started this game under stock, CHS and RHSCVO many times  I know how much or how little I can get and should get away with.

.

Buck

The chief (present) Matrix programmer wrote (here in the Forum I think) that you can only play WITP ONE TIME! "After that you know too much" The problem of 20-20 hindsight is pretty horrible. And no reader of the Forum is unaware that the Japanese are using Yamamoto's preferred strategy in EOS family scenarios - including AIO. You KNOW where the enemy is not. You also KNOW about Zeros, Long Lance torpedoes, etc. and don't go into shock because you meet them. Nothing I can do about that.

RHS in fact is NOT designed for AI play - and IMHO Matrix only pretended to do AI at all (it isn't even really AI - 'intelligent' is the wrong word for rigid hard code in slots) because it knew most people would mostly play vs the computer. RHS is designed for PBEM or FTF games - and AIO is the exception - with two missions:

1) Let human vs human players get practice before they take on a really skilled opponent

2) Let AI have a chance - by giving it more and better stuff to fight with. That is why AIO is based on the Japan Enhanced Scenario. It isn't good enough - but it was a step in the direction of making AI harder to beat.

Note also that, before I began modding WITP, the standard Allied strategy had become (according to a Matrix programmer with more than 12,000 turns game experience) "run with everything." It works because - well - it works.
It is political nonsense: you could not even maintain legal claim to a territory you didn't attempt to defend; no one credited the Japanese with being superior enough to actually run (at first); grand ideas existed that the Japanese could be attacked (British invasion of Thaland to deny the landing beaches) proactively or contained WHOLLY on the beach (MacArthur's defend everywhere strategy for Luzon). Gen Marshall considered a force of - what? - 35 B-17s "the greatest assembly of strategic air power in the world." No one thought the Far East Air Forces would be taken down in a couple of days without hurting the enemy worthy of mention. No one thought the British Army would run even at the sound of approqaching enemy troops (bike rims on pavement sounded like tanks apparently). YOUR troops don't suffer from illusions - and they are too effective in the game world. Just as YOUR strategy is too wise - too modern - NATO like "don't stand before a major thrust, get out of the way".

IF you want a history like campaign DO NOT RUN. SEND REINFORCEMENTS to Malaya, the Dutch East Indies, and the Philippines - as IRL - as long as you can do so. That is HISTORICAL play. If you don't do that - you are bound not to lose as much in initial ops. It is really up to you - not me.

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Look I am having fun, but don't discount my observations as something I am doing so great and the "stupid AI" is doing so bad.  Listen, there is not enough pressure in the west at the beginning and I am having my way with the Axis and it is the result of not enough Axis assets driving on Borneo, Rangoon and Java.  This allows me "mucho" oil for Australia and air and base units for India.  The Axis aircover needs to be there to make the Allies pay a big price for putting TFs in harms way.  Rangoon should not be a yacht harbor that it is in this game.

NOTE, I am a big supporter of the RHS concept and these thoughts are from an ally not an adversary.

Buck

I am not offended by any of your comments. I am not insecure - it isn't my style. RHS is for those who like it - and anyone who does not should not be looking at it. Anyone who does look at it is welcome to comment. I seek only to help you understand the modder's design perspective.

IF you think the Japanese position in EOS is weak - play a human - or play me. I promise you will claim the Japanese are way too strong. It is not that AIO lacks the assets of EOS - AIO IS EOS: it is that AI is totally stupid, rigid, and wastes over 90% of its potential. Look at ships: many go places of no value; or they go empty; or they go by insane routes; or they go unescorted; or all of those things at once. The number of ships doing something useful is less than 1 in 10. Humans - even bad humans - are not that bad. And Japanese shipping is not strong enough to be that inefficient.

One Forum member said that Matrix gave "free supplies" in forward areas as a crutch - because AI could not address logistics well. RHS reformed logistics - and you must move resources, oil, supplies and fuel well - or things will shut down on you. I have seen aircraft production go all the way to ZERO - early in the war. But it turns out that AI is pretty good with logistics - on land. It is only ship logistics that is horrible. Still - in a sea war - sea logistics matter critically. NOTHING I can do about it - so NO AI scenario will do anything well except this:

1) Provide practice/familiarization in a situation you cannot wholly predict

2) Make an AFB feel good

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I am not offended by any of your comments. I am not insecure - it isn't my style. RHS is for those who like it - and anyone who does not should not be looking at it. Anyone who does look at it is welcome to comment. I seek only to help you understand the modder's design perspective.

Your design is not in question it is the scenario's strategy. The drive to take and hold Hawaiian and surrounding islands. I think in my IMHO, is flawed.

IF you think the Japanese position in EOS is weak - play a human - or play me. Hey I am dumber than the AI and I cheat against it!!. It is not that AIO lacks the assets of EOS - AIO IS EOS: Again it is the opening strategy it is that AI is totally stupid, rigid, and wastes over 90% of its potential. Look at ships: many go places of no value; or they go empty; or they go by insane routes; or they go unescorted; or all of those things at once. The number of ships doing something useful is less than 1 in 10. Humans - even bad humans - are not that bad. And Japanese shipping is not strong enough to be that inefficient.

One Forum member said that Matrix gave "free supplies" in forward areas as a crutch - because AI could not address logistics well. RHS reformed logistics - and you must move resources, oil, supplies and fuel well - or things will shut down on you. I have seen aircraft production go all the way to ZERO - early in the war. I love RHS (level 7) for all these reasons. But it turns out that AI is pretty good with logistics - on land. It is only ship logistics that is horrible. Still - in a sea war - sea logistics matter critically. NOTHING I can do about it - so NO AI scenario will do anything well except this:

1) Provide practice/familiarization in a situation you cannot wholly predict

2) Make an AFB feel good

Not about to quit this game until maybe after I see was Matrix is coming up with. I have been waiting too long too start playing again, NOT EVEN IF YOU FREEZE AND UNFREEZE IT A HUNDRED MORE TIMES [:D][:D]

Question, what would have been your openning strategy as the Japanese? That might be fun to play (NO I DON'T WANT TO PLAY YOU [:)] ) ]

Well - if your problem is the opening strategy - than that is a vote for RHSCAIO. Based on CVO, it will use the standard opening gambit.

I long have studied the opening strategy - and when I asked one of my friends who has been with me about 40 years what I should do in the Tag Team game - he said "you have convinced me - go for Hawaii"

I would do what Yamamoto wanted to do - combined with early commitment in the SE direction - indeed - AFTER Hawaii falls - any carrier not damaged which can be given a healthy air group sweeps the SE sector before returning to Truk to repair/replace back up (in far more detailed games with about 60 players).

I have absolutely no doubt - the EOS strategy is far stronger. The Americans are PINNED - absolutely pinned to defend Hawaii. The idea they will fight for it probably means Japan gets its early Decisive Battle - and an absolutely free hand until 1943. But if the USN is wise - and only seeks to make the conquest of Hawaii expensive WITHOUT losing capital ships in droves - or all its long range airpower early in 1942 - even so it is fighting in a place Japan does not need like it needs the SRA. It is my favorite strategy in general terms: fight battles you can afford to draw or even lose, distracting the enemy AWAY from the battles you must/need to win.

I have learned to "program" AI to some extent. I can tell it what theater I want a unit to go to. I can tell it what objective I want a unit to go for (at least for a land unit). But I cannot follow up. And I cannot respond to unpredictable events/positions. That is fatal I am afraid. You can always beat a system like that.

I wanted to take Oahu automatically in RHSAIO. I have not yet figured out how to do that: Oahu is tough enough it REQUIRES a campaign to take it - and AI won't tough it out long enough to succeed. It can take all the preliminary positions - scare the Allies a bit - and sink lots of ships if they do not run. But it cannot sustain applied airpower to reduce the forts of Oahu - and IF you go in early against them - EVERYTHING will die. Maybe someday I will figure out how to do better than that - but not yet.

Note that it was a consensus among both US Army and US Navy officers on Dec 9 or 10 that Japan SHOULD HAVE invaded - or been prepaired to implement an invasion option. On Dec 10 (Tokyo time) Adm Yamamoto came to the same conclusion: his caution in August and October was unwarranted - because air power was far stronger than even he had believed (air advocate though he was). He never turned back: from that date he worked to mount the invasion - and it was too late: by the time it could have been mounted, the forces available could not have been sufficient. But in 1941? As my friend said - it is the only way to go.

I (and I suspect most of us) want anything to enhance AI or make the AI player better or unpredicatable.
IMHO there should be a countless number of mod options, each with altering AI moves which have never been seen before?
Maybe an AI that sets out to take the Phillipines and New Guinea without a raid on Pearl whatsoever?
I suspect Japanese carriers were strong enough in late '41 early '42 to make a Jap carrier vs American BB interception at sea a greater loss than Pearl..??

Oh yes - if the battlefleet is at sea - it will sink in water too deep to recover them from. I like to suck the fleet out to sea - and sink it there. Far more decisive than sinking it where it can be salvaged.

An that is the problem. With Pearl intact and/or the inability to keep it neutralize Maui and Midway (IMHO) forces are wasted (not sure about Johnston). In my mind Palmyra and Christmas and cutting off New Zealand/Australia supply feed is more important. I also think an early take over of Port Morsbey, even before other New Guinea bases is needed and applies more isolation.

Ah, what the hell do I know anyway.

Well - I set out to make AIO the same as EOS - and ended up settling for the appearence of trying to do the mission. It is possible things might have gone wrong had this been tried. The Hawaii Division (split only in November 1941 - into two understrength divisions - from which the 100 th battalion would be stripped out early in 1942) was the most professional in the US Army. The Hawaii Separate Coast Artillery Brigade was the strongest organization of its type in the world. The Hawaiian Air Force was not nothing. Taken together with the imposing geography of Oahu - trouble might have occurred. I decided to "cheat" and not send the invasion forces into Oahu in AIO - only to see them wiped out. AI never takes the hint from unit tasking - and does not run the invasion as it should.

Maybe someday I will figure out how to sustain an air operation? But until then, players expecting a conventional opening will be surprised - and everyone must deal with all those forces in Hawaiian waters. It is supposed to be a practice game - and real players of EOS will be using this force - so it serves its purpose.