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Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:56 pm
by Japan
If Units from China Area Army are moved into Mansouria, will this then have a effect on Mansuko Garrison, or is it only Kwutang Area Army Units who will have effect on this?
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:37 pm
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: Japan
If Units from China Area Army are moved into Mansouria, will this then have a effect on Mansuko Garrison, or is it only Kwutang Area Army Units who will have effect on this?
i believe it is the HQ the units are assigned to which affect the total numbers in the garrison.
Most players have house rules designed to reflect this, so you can't take a unit from Manchuria and march them to (say) Burma and still have it count as being in the Manchurian garrison.
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:05 am
by jumper
I think it doesn´t matter what HQ LCU have. Whatever is in Manchuria, its AV is added to the total garrison value. So you can boost it by China units for example if your HRs allows you to do so.
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:39 pm
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: jumper
I think it doesn´t matter what HQ LCU have. Whatever is in Manchuria, its AV is added to the total garrison value. So you can boost it by China units for example if your HRs allows you to do so.
i don't think this is true (witnessed by the numerous house rules against marching LCUs from Manchuria to China) - but i will check.
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:08 pm
by castor troy
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: jumper
I think it doesn´t matter what HQ LCU have. Whatever is in Manchuria, its AV is added to the total garrison value. So you can boost it by China units for example if your HRs allows you to do so.
i don't think this is true (witnessed by the numerous house rules against marching LCUs from Manchuria to China) - but i will check.
It´s doesn´t matter what HQ the unit is assigned to! Every unit in the Manchurian area counts! IIRC you can even move your home island divisions to the base far in the North and they count... [8|]
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:54 pm
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: castor troy
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: jumper
I think it doesn´t matter what HQ LCU have. Whatever is in Manchuria, its AV is added to the total garrison value. So you can boost it by China units for example if your HRs allows you to do so.
i don't think this is true (witnessed by the numerous house rules against marching LCUs from Manchuria to China) - but i will check.
It´s doesn´t matter what HQ the unit is assigned to! Every unit in the Manchurian area counts! IIRC you can even move your home island divisions to the base far in the North and they count... [8|]
This is what the manual says ("Any unit in the NW control zone counts for this requirement" section 8.6 page 154) - but two relatively experienced IJ players i've asked weren't certain if the manual was accurate - one is currently running a test to see if this is definitely true.
However Castor Troy is probably more experienced with running Japan... so i'd go with "location" rather than HQ until proven otherwise.
As for the house rules, apparently they are designed to keep things in theater rather than preventing abuse of garrison values.
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:57 pm
by jumper
I have just moved a good part of China Army to Manchuria and the garrison AV jumped from 8500 to 13000 as soon as my army under china command HQ crossed the border..
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:01 pm
by jumper
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
As for the house rules, apparently they are designed to keep things in theater rather than preventing abuse of garrison values.
Yes, IIRC manchukuo garrison starts with about 10000 AV so without such HR you could use 2000AV elsewhere and still meet the requirements..
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:04 pm
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: jumper
I have just moved a good part of China Army to Manchuria and the garrison AV jumped from 8500 to 13000 as soon as my army under china command HQ crossed the border..
More good evidence for location.
Be aware, though, that garrison AV values can (or could) vary DRASTICALLY from day to day for reasons that remain unclear (supply, perhaps). One player reported (and complained bitterly) that he had AV way over the needed 8000 value - but for some reason the AV dipped below 8000 for a turn (due to one of these fluctuations) - and the Soviets activated!!! [X(]
But that was in a prior patch... don't know if the AV still fluctuates like this now. However, if your AV stays up in the 12,000 range for several turns, and had been around 8500 range before that - it should be conclusive proof for location.
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:34 pm
by rtrapasso
Yet another experienced IJ player has confirmed these observations (see
fb.asp?m=1626001 )
- so until someone can prove otherwise or the game changes - it is location.
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:51 pm
by TenChiMato
In the recent reallocation of some Kwantung units I did (basically moving some units to South Korea for future reassignment but no change of HQ yet), I noticed that the total AV dropped while I had some LCUs in transit between bases in Mandchuria and Korea. Looks like it was the total AV of Kwantung HQ units in Kwantung HQ bases. Then again many units start In Mandchuria far away from some bases so strange indeed even when taking into account the temporary loss of AV due to the lack of support while the units moved away from corps HQ or airbases support units. Had to cancel several moves as the total AV suddenly dropped very very close to the Soviet activation value.
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:57 pm
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: TenChiMato
In the recent reallocation of some Kwantung units I did (basically moving some units to South Korea for future reassignment but no change of HQ yet), I noticed that the total AV dropped while I had some LCUs in transit between bases in Mandchuria and Korea. Looks like it was the total AV of Kwantung HQ units in Kwantung HQ bases. Then again many units start In Mandchuria far away from some bases so strange indeed even when taking into account the temporary loss of AV due to the lack of support while the units moved away from corps HQ or airbases support units. Had to cancel several moves as the total AV suddenly dropped very very close to the Soviet activation value.
According to other folk, bases don't have to be assigned to Kwantung HQ - apparently just in the right quadrant (they can even be in N. Japan) - the observation about them being in bases is interesting, though.
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:34 am
by jwilkerson
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: TenChiMato
In the recent reallocation of some Kwantung units I did (basically moving some units to South Korea for future reassignment but no change of HQ yet), I noticed that the total AV dropped while I had some LCUs in transit between bases in Mandchuria and Korea. Looks like it was the total AV of Kwantung HQ units in Kwantung HQ bases. Then again many units start In Mandchuria far away from some bases so strange indeed even when taking into account the temporary loss of AV due to the lack of support while the units moved away from corps HQ or airbases support units. Had to cancel several moves as the total AV suddenly dropped very very close to the Soviet activation value.
According to other folk, bases don't have to be assigned to Kwantung HQ - apparently just in the right quadrant (they can even be in N. Japan) - the observation about them being in bases is interesting, though.
Sorry I'm late to this party.
The Manchurian Garrison is a "box" defined by four hexes. I've posted these four hexes before .. don't have them memorized ... I can go look them up again if needed .. but I am sure that the "Manchurian Garrison" is defined as a box. Any Japanese side unit in this box will count. The box include part of Hokkaido but the Southern tip of Korea.
The HQ assignment of unit in this box does not matter.
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:48 am
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: TenChiMato
In the recent reallocation of some Kwantung units I did (basically moving some units to South Korea for future reassignment but no change of HQ yet), I noticed that the total AV dropped while I had some LCUs in transit between bases in Mandchuria and Korea. Looks like it was the total AV of Kwantung HQ units in Kwantung HQ bases. Then again many units start In Mandchuria far away from some bases so strange indeed even when taking into account the temporary loss of AV due to the lack of support while the units moved away from corps HQ or airbases support units. Had to cancel several moves as the total AV suddenly dropped very very close to the Soviet activation value.
According to other folk, bases don't have to be assigned to Kwantung HQ - apparently just in the right quadrant (they can even be in N. Japan) - the observation about them being in bases is interesting, though.
Sorry I'm late to this party.
The Manchurian Garrison is a "box" defined by four hexes. I've posted these four hexes before .. don't have them memorized ... I can go look them up again if needed .. but I am sure that the "Manchurian Garrison" is defined as a box. Any Japanese side unit in this box will count. The box include part of Hokkaido but the Southern tip of Korea.
The HQ assignment of unit in this box does not matter.
After thinking about it... i suspect the decrease in "Machurian Garrison" value when your units were on the road may well have been in supply issues. If a unit has lots of supplies, it functions well for most purposes... if supply levels are down even if little bit, interesting things start to happen (i.e. - check victory point values for bases in consecutive turns - the number of bases may be the same, but VP values change (sometimes radically) from turn to turn)... i suspect the garrison value for a unit might drop if not completely supplied.
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:31 pm
by jwilkerson
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
According to other folk, bases don't have to be assigned to Kwantung HQ - apparently just in the right quadrant (they can even be in N. Japan) - the observation about them being in bases is interesting, though.
Sorry I'm late to this party.
The Manchurian Garrison is a "box" defined by four hexes. I've posted these four hexes before .. don't have them memorized ... I can go look them up again if needed .. but I am sure that the "Manchurian Garrison" is defined as a box. Any Japanese side unit in this box will count. The box include part of Hokkaido but the Southern tip of Korea.
The HQ assignment of unit in this box does not matter.
After thinking about it... i suspect the decrease in "Machurian Garrison" value when your units were on the road may well have been in supply issues. If a unit has lots of supplies, it functions well for most purposes... if supply levels are down even if little bit, interesting things start to happen (i.e. - check victory point values for bases in consecutive turns - the number of bases may be the same, but VP values change (sometimes radically) from turn to turn)... i suspect the garrison value for a unit might drop if not completely supplied.
Nope, supply has no effect, moving units into the Southern part of Korea actually moves them outside the box and that is the reason for the decrease. Move them back North and the total will increase again.
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:50 pm
by jwilkerson
OK, went and looked up the boundaries of this box.
(56,37) is lower left.
(71,37) is lower right.
North edge of map is north boundary.
And hex rows 56 and 71 are the east and west edges.
And hex row 37 is lower edge.
Any Japanese unit on or inside this box is defined to be in the Manchuko garrision, any Japanese unit outside this box is not in the Manchuko garrison. There are no other qualifiers on whether you are in or out of the Manchuko garrison, not supply, not HQ, nothing, just whether you are inside this box or not.
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:02 pm
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
OK, went and looked up the boundaries of this box.
(56,37) is lower left.
(71,37) is lower right.
North edge of map is north boundary.
And hex rows 56 and 71 are the east and west edges.
And hex row 37 is lower edge.
Any Japanese unit on or inside this box is defined to be in the Manchuko garrision, any Japanese unit outside this box is not in the Manchuko garrison. There are no other qualifiers on whether you are in or out of the Manchuko garrison, not supply, not HQ, nothing, just whether you are inside this box or not.
i know there have been several discussions in the past about the garrison value varying fairly radically - and in one case (a while back) this resulted in an unexpected Soviet activation... if there are no qualifiers, why does the garrison value vary? (or has that been fixed???) [&:]
RE: Mansouria Garrison
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:33 pm
by jwilkerson
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
OK, went and looked up the boundaries of this box.
(56,37) is lower left.
(71,37) is lower right.
North edge of map is north boundary.
And hex rows 56 and 71 are the east and west edges.
And hex row 37 is lower edge.
Any Japanese unit on or inside this box is defined to be in the Manchuko garrision, any Japanese unit outside this box is not in the Manchuko garrison. There are no other qualifiers on whether you are in or out of the Manchuko garrison, not supply, not HQ, nothing, just whether you are inside this box or not.
i know there have been several discussions in the past about the garrison value varying fairly radically - and in one case (a while back) this resulted in an unexpected Soviet activation... if there are no qualifiers, why does the garrison value vary? (or has that been fixed???) [&:]
The only cases I know about where it "varied" were due to walking units in/out of the box. The issue is that the coordinates of the box are not generally known. And the coordinates do NOT correspond with the borders of Manchuko. So I think the variance, is just due to the value changing when people don't expect it to. The one case I recall which led to Soviet Activation, was (IIRC) when a guy moved 4 divisions to Southern Korea at the same time. This was the case that caused me to look up the coordinates in the first place. We need to try to remember to define the "areas" like cold zone, malaria zone and Manchuko in the manual for AE.