Matrix Games Forums

I'm not sure if it's just me but I find running submarines in HCE and previous versions of this game to be the most challenging element of the game. Here's how I handle it, and the challenges I encounter, thus far. Feedback is welcome!

- Anti-surface:
Not too bad. Get your initial passive contact and prosecute it, establish the target group's path of intended movement and high tail it to an intercept point. If possible don't position yourself directly in their path to minimize chance of detection but close enough to one side that your torps will not be outrun prior to impact. Depending on the target's speed you may need to pop up and do a quick radar scan for precise targeting info (sharpens your passive solution) prior to weapon launch. Dive deep and creep away unless detected in which case run like hell.

- Anti-sub:
This is the tough part. Getting a good firing solution is very difficult against other subs without being picked up yourself, unless the enemy sub is transiting at high speed. I like this to some degree (I remember the days when most ASW kills in Harpoon were made with StandOff weapons because they were so easy to find). But it makes many of these situations akin to the famous hand grenade battle in a phone booth as once you pick them up they pick you up - especially your launch transient - and you both die. Attempts at being a hole in the water for those subs that haven't seen me but are coming close to me never work as they eventually pick me up and fire.

- How can it be improved?
o I'd like to know how much noise I'm generating at a given speed for both surface ships and subs. This could be a number on the Unit Info screen. It would help me gauge whether to make that sprint at 18 knots or 14 knots without simply using a SWAG.
o As long as we're doing that it would be nice to have an Average Detection Range also given, again a number in nm in the Unit Info Screen would do, wherein it would display the distance at which the vessel's own sensors could detect itself 50% of the time.
o Both of these options would help sub commanders maneuver less blindly than they are forced to now.

DN

ORIGINAL: darknite
- Anti-surface:
Not too bad. Get your initial passive contact and prosecute it, establish the target group's path of intended movement and high tail it to an intercept point. If possible don't position yourself directly in their path to minimize chance of detection but close enough to one side that your torps will not be outrun prior to impact.

This is pretty much exactly how I try to prosecute a surface contact.

Depending on the target's speed you may need to pop up and do a quick radar scan for precise targeting info (sharpens your passive solution) prior to weapon launch.

Very rarely would I risk a radar search. Maybe against a target with a known weakness for ASW. Generally, however, with my luck, I get an SS-N-14 Silex in the face for my efforts, or an enemy helicopter gets sent along the bearing to investigate.

Dive deep and creep away unless detected in which case run like hell.

Agreed. [:D]

- Anti-sub:
This is the tough part. Getting a good firing solution is very difficult against other subs without being picked up yourself, unless the enemy sub is transiting at high speed. I like this to some degree (I remember the days when most ASW kills in Harpoon were made with StandOff weapons because they were so easy to find). But it makes many of these situations akin to the famous hand grenade battle in a phone booth as once you pick them up they pick you up - especially your launch transient - and you both die. Attempts at being a hole in the water for those subs that haven't seen me but are coming close to me never work as they eventually pick me up and fire.

Whenever I am able to detect an enemy submarine before he's in knife fighting range, and work out his course and speed, I try and maneuver into his baffles before engaging him. It can buy me a bit more time before he detects up my torpedo(s), especially if he's traveling at speed.

- How can it be improved?
o I'd like to know how much noise I'm generating at a given speed for both surface ships and subs. This could be a number on the Unit Info screen. It would help me gauge whether to make that sprint at 18 knots or 14 knots without simply using a SWAG.
o As long as we're doing that it would be nice to have an Average Detection Range also given, again a number in nm in the Unit Info Screen would do, wherein it would display the distance at which the vessel's own sensors could detect itself 50% of the time.
o Both of these options would help sub commanders maneuver less blindly than they are forced to now.

I am doubtful that either of these 'aids' will come about. I think in large part submarine warfare is very much a matter of knowing your platforms, their strengths and limitations. Its a risky business. You can never know for sure if the enemy has heard you, except for trying to gauge his behavior, and you're always trying to anticipate what he'll do next. For me, its what makes sub warfare enjoyable. Can't change the 'rules of the game' too much. [;)]

I rarely run radar.  But it's there when you need it, especially against high value targets you really don't want to risk missing.

And absolutely, move to their baffles and stick there against enemy subs.  But manuevering to that spot is very tricky because besides a basic SWAG you as the player really have little idea of how 'detectable' you are at any given speed.  At least with radar you have an idea of where you might be picked up.  But with sonar there's no fixed circle of detection.  As such a method of indicating your radiated noise and estabishing a 'range of the day' to yourself would be handy tools for driving subs and for surface vessels as well.  These aren't game breaking additions and are methods routinely used by navies today.

DN

Baffles is tough too with the AI subs doing the crazy Ivan periodically in HCE (either thanks or curse you Bret McKee [;)]).

Hey, I liked them in "Red October", and they seemed to help in the game.  Geez - take a bit of a break and find people diss'ing you in discussion forums

I am a relative newcomer as well but have played harpoon before but bought HCE to get back into things.
Thanks to all for an interesting thread - can't wait for a block of time this weekend to experiment.

Cheers! [:)]

ORIGINAL: bretm
Hey, I liked them in "Red October", and they seemed to help in the game. Geez - take a bit of a break and find people diss'ing you in discussion forums

LOL. Hi Bret. [:)]