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RHSCAIO level 7 (not sure of other scenarios). A comparison of Canada versus the United States potential oil production (damaged factories + producing factories) show they are about equal. I hadn't realized that Canada had that great of oil capacity then or now. I know absolutely nothing about the subject it is/was just a perception. Are there other factors? Any comments?


Edit: Note, I just checked several other of the RHS level 7 scenarios (latest revision date) and they too reflect the same data.

Well - the problem is the limited map area. And the part of Canada on the map has oil production centers, while in the USA, only the Southern California oil centers are on the map. There also is a "pipeline" (free oil) flowing into San Diego - indeed there is one - from Texas oilfields. In addition, there is oil from Latin America and the Gulf ports flowing into Colon, not to mention considerable storage, in Levels 5 and 6, while you have some of this moved to New Orleans in Level 7. I am not sure what you are looking at - just oil production - or production plus "free" oil - but the totals are shown in the RHS Economic Utility.

The US has 700 active oil centers plus 1315 disabled oil centers in Level 7. Canada is not broken out separately, but may indeed be similar. But "pipeline" production (entering map edge points from off map) for the Allies is 16,220 - so the on map production is small by comparison.

What matters is that the Allies have a substantial daily surplus of oil production over requirements - in addition to a substantial stockpile of oil. The problem (for the Allies) is two fold:

1) A good deal of daily production will be lost to the enemy

2) A good deal of industry will repair up and require more oil.

Even so, the theoretical daily net production minus daily net requirement, is 3458 to the good (while Japan is in deficit by over 11,000). The contest most of all is over the on map oil supplies NOT near the map edge - where battles are unlikely to occur. The Allies may indeed reach a point where they are in deficit - but if well managed they won't notice it very much because of immense stocks (both initial and built up during the game). Much more critical is "is the oil where it is needed?" This means skilled Allied play spends a lot of effort moving oil from where it is to where it is required. In many ways, the game is a time contest on unequal terms:

Total Axis production requiring oil (theoretically, and if there is no expansion) is 12,496 (only 198 of which is disabled)
but total Axis oil is 1292 (only 30 of which is disabled) - so there is a deficit of 11,204.

Total Allied production requiring oil is more than twice as high - 27,230 (9509 of which is disabled)
but total Allied oil is 30,668 (1780 of which is disabled) - so there is a surplus of 3458.

Because this is in daily terms, stock also count. Not just initial stocks, but those players build up. The Allies should move oil to storage whenever possible, and then should move to recapture oil centers as soon as possible, and also to damage them while in enemy hands as much as possible. The Axis should move to capture oil as soon as possible, then to move it to safer places as much as they can, so they will have something to run on even after centers captured are lost. Both have stocks which act to delay the awful effects of running out - Japan remarkably high stocks for its day (more relative to requirements than any other nation in any era). But the war in many respects is defined by the OVERALL contest for oil - it is why "strike south" instead of "strike north" for IJA - which ALWAYS intended to fight the USSR. It isn't oil in Canada or the Western USA that matters - it is oil wherever production centers require it. New Zealand or Australia or India will produce better if you feed them oil. I think the US West Coast may benefit from oil shipped in from New Orleans or Panama as well.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Well - the problem is the limited map area. And the part of Canada on the map has oil production centers, while in the USA, only the Southern California oil centers are on the map. There also is a "pipeline" (free oil) flowing into San Diego - indeed there is one - from Texas oilfields. In addition, there is oil from Latin America and the Gulf ports flowing into Colon, not to mention considerable storage, in Levels 5 and 6, while you have some of this moved to New Orleans in Level 7. I am not sure what you are looking at - just oil production - or production plus "free" oil - but the totals are shown in the RHS Economic Utility.

The US has 700 active oil centers plus 1315 disabled oil centers in Level 7. Canada is not broken out separately, but may indeed be similar. But "pipeline" production (entering map edge points from off map) for the Allies is 16,220 - so the on map production is small by comparison.

What matters is that the Allies have a substantial daily surplus of oil production over requirements - in addition to a substantial stockpile of oil. The problem (for the Allies) is two fold:

1) A good deal of daily production will be lost to the enemy

2) A good deal of industry will repair up and require more oil.

Even so, the theoretical daily net production minus daily net requirement, is 3458 to the good (while Japan is in deficit by over 11,000). The contest most of all is over the on map oil supplies NOT near the map edge - where battles are unlikely to occur. The Allies may indeed reach a point where they are in deficit - but if well managed they won't notice it very much because of immense stocks (both initial and built up during the game). Much more critical is "is the oil where it is needed?" This means skilled Allied play spends a lot of effort moving oil from where it is to where it is required. In many ways, the game is a time contest on unequal terms:

Total Axis production requiring oil (theoretically, and if there is no expansion) is 12,496 (only 198 of which is disabled)
but total Axis oil is 1292 (only 30 of which is disabled) - so there is a deficit of 11,204.

Total Allied production requiring oil is more than twice as high - 27,230 (9509 of which is disabled)
but total Allied oil is 30,668 (1780 of which is disabled) - so there is a surplus of 3458.

Because this is in daily terms, stock also count. Not just initial stocks, but those players build up.

Actually, I was looking at it very simplistically. The bases Canada & Calgary have a optimum/maximum production of 2260 and the rest of America, including New Orleans have 2430 give or take.

I'm not trying to pick the model apart, it just struck me curious. I guess the answer to my question is, there are other factors to consider.

Thanks for the reply.

Blatant thread hijack![:D]

Still on the topic of "production, I am having real serious issues with the low production of Douglas Dauntless planes in RHSCVO 7.xxx..
I currently have 4 flattops sitting in Pearl waiting for new model 3/4's which are only coming at the rate of .75 or maybe 2 per day.
At this rate, they are gonna be there a LONG time, needing approx 60 planes total.
With most Dauntless's going to the Pacific, and steady assembly lines, surely this might be vamped?[;)]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Blatant thread hijack![:D]

Still on the topic of "production, I am having real serious issues with the low production of Douglas Dauntless planes in RHSCVO 7.xxx..
I currently have 4 flattops sitting in Pearl waiting for new model 3/4's which are only coming at the rate of .75 or maybe 2 per day.
At this rate, they are gonna be there a LONG time, needing approx 60 planes total.
With most Dauntless's going to the Pacific, and steady assembly lines, surely this might be vamped?[;)]

Why dont you use the SB2U-2 Vindicator until enough Dauntless's arrive? It should perform very similar and there are plenty in the pool.

I don`t know the exact ratios between the U.S. and Canada - then or now. I do know that Alberta, Canada is a major oil producing area and has been so for at least the last 30 years. Again, I don`t know how much this industry had been developed in the 40s.

Here`s an interesting tidbit about Canada and oil from Wikipaedia.

Petrolia (2006 population 5,222)[1] is a town in Ontario, Canada, near Sarnia, Ontario. It is billed as "Canada's Victorian Oil Town" and is often credited with starting the world oil industry.

In 1857 James Miller Williams of Hamilton, Ontario began distilling some of the "tar" lying around Oil Springs (located a few kilometers down the road), after buying the property rights from Charles Nelson Tripp. In 1858 he struck an oil deposit in Oil Springs while digging a water well, sparking the oil drilling industry. This resulted in a large amount of wastage from gushers, estimated at 5,000,000 barrels of oil in 1862 alone.[2]

Oil production went through several boom periods in Petrolia, one was in 1898 and another in 1938. Some wells sunk in 1938 were initially producing 100 barrels a day at a price of $2 per barrel. This output, however, often lasted only a few weeks, falling to less than a barrel a day. [3]

Oil men from Petrolia travelled to the far reaches of the world (Gobi Desert, Arctic, Iran, Indonesia, USA, Australia, Russia, and over 80 other countries) teaching others how to find and extract crude oil. Those born and raised in Petrolia are referred to as "Hard Oilers", paying tribute to the toughness of its ancestors. Petrolia is also home to the Petrolia Discovery museum. Oil fields in the area are still pumping there to this day.

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Blatant thread hijack![:D]

Still on the topic of "production, I am having real serious issues with the low production of Douglas Dauntless planes in RHSCVO 7.xxx..
I currently have 4 flattops sitting in Pearl waiting for new model 3/4's which are only coming at the rate of .75 or maybe 2 per day.
At this rate, they are gonna be there a LONG time, needing approx 60 planes total.
With most Dauntless's going to the Pacific, and steady assembly lines, surely this might be vamped?[;)]

Why dont you use the SB2U-2 Vindicator until enough Dauntless's arrive? It should perform very similar and there are plenty in the pool.

That is certainly an option I had not considered!..Thank you!

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Blatant thread hijack![:D]

Still on the topic of "production, I am having real serious issues with the low production of Douglas Dauntless planes in RHSCVO 7.xxx..
I currently have 4 flattops sitting in Pearl waiting for new model 3/4's which are only coming at the rate of .75 or maybe 2 per day.
At this rate, they are gonna be there a LONG time, needing approx 60 planes total.
With most Dauntless's going to the Pacific, and steady assembly lines, surely this might be vamped?[;)]

Not enough data here: what scenario????

Production is probably too high - and I am considering reducing it - at least in EOS family. I am noting way too many Allied pools of gigantic size. The planes just are not getting used - not even 1 in 10 in many cases. But the foundation is real: this number should be the number in theater - with only a tiny % (5 I think) going to training, attrition, diversion for special projects, etc. SBD is not the big deal number wise until the 5 model - and other types should be used to replace as required until you get big numbers of 5s. We take the number and divide by the months to get the total - approximately - with compensation for ramping up too.

Back to the thread

Note that this is carefully balanced:

The Allies are rewarded for keeping all their industry supplied with oil. So are the Japanese. But the Japanese need for oil is much greater, relatively speaking. And even if the Allies cannot feed all their industry every turn, the base is bigger, so they still probably out produce Japan. [Also - HI points have fewer uses for the Allies - for the part of the economy they feed - it is a much greater fraction]

The design intent is to focus players on the oil fields - and on moving their product where it is needed - and on stopping the enemy from getting oil fields or moving their product where it is needed.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Blatant thread hijack![:D]

Still on the topic of "production, I am having real serious issues with the low production of Douglas Dauntless planes in RHSCVO 7.xxx..
I currently have 4 flattops sitting in Pearl waiting for new model 3/4's which are only coming at the rate of .75 or maybe 2 per day.
At this rate, they are gonna be there a LONG time, needing approx 60 planes total.
With most Dauntless's going to the Pacific, and steady assembly lines, surely this might be vamped?[;)]

Not enough data here: what scenario????

Production is probably too high - and I am considering reducing it - at least in EOS family. I am noting way too many Allied pools of gigantic size. The planes just are not getting used - not even 1 in 10 in many cases. But the foundation is real: this number should be the number in theater - with only a tiny % (5 I think) going to training, attrition, diversion for special projects, etc. SBD is not the big deal number wise until the 5 model - and other types should be used to replace as required until you get big numbers of 5s. We take the number and divide by the months to get the total - approximately - with compensation for ramping up too.

RHSCVO 7.7872 is the one I am reporting on.. All production points in the US have loads of supply in 3/42 and I have depleted the stock of existing DBD 3/4 planes.
As reported, from combat attrition on my carriers, I have a need for 40-60 planes right now, for USN.
If I try to revert back to the older Vultee plane, I suspect I will lose the historic unit, not to mention the historic complement, which is a major concern.
As stated, the factory is only turning out between .75 to maybe 2 planes per day, and that is not enough for my needs.

I cannot change the crude mechanics of the game. If I don't use average production, you end up with too many - a big problem for the Allies generally anyway.

You won't lose a unit by changing the aircraft it flies.

Attrition and logistics are big reasons there were few battles: just because intel gives you an opportunity does not mean you have time to get oilers in position - or the planes to strike with. Real ops are limited by such factors.