Matrix Games Forums

Hi, first post.

As a keen student of all soviet military platforms (until fairly recently only Great Patriotic War air and ground platforms were of interest) I'd like to use software to educate myself on soviet naval matters in a few cold-war scenarios, being more or less uninformed about anything other than the occasional Akula or Kilo amongst the Yaks, ZiS and MiGs.

Harpoon3 ANW looks to be the one with which I can begin to start studying and enjoying, judging by the demo offered on the AGSI website.

My questions are, though, the following:

1. Is the most recent patch of H3:ANW 3.8? Will I be able to successfully use the software for extended periods for my purposes as of this patch, or should I wait for 3.9 or higher? (Btw read somewhere 3.9 is soon to be available? Is this correct?)

2. For whatever reason(s), it appears that a certain acrimony has developed between various parties about Databases and so on and so forth. Not my business to make any commentary other than this: - If I purchase H:ANW -which Database is considered at the moment to be the most compatible and stable with the current version?

3. H:CE is Harpoon 'light', a Harpoon Classic revisited, then?

4. Will development continue on H3:ASW for the forseeable as the primary, best-resourced product in the range, aside from the military versions?

Thank you, in advance.

Edited for: stupid typos.

(1) 3.9 is coming soon yes. I do believe it will be a free upgrade from 3.8 but don't quote me on that.
(2) Well that is a touchy one, there are many and switching between them is a breeze so use all
(3) Yes but much better under the hood.
(4) I can not see one on the horizon that will be better in the near future.

Thanks for your reply, JRyan.

Additional thought -somewhere I recall reading that the soviets were problematic to play in some scenarios? If so, how extensive is this issue? I'd appreciate any further info.

Cheers.

Just a little bit more info;-

All DBs have issues - different issues to different people. Typical Soviet weapon issues are playing a game featuring a submarine, getting into a firiing position, and then finding a DB error that will not permit the torpedo to fire.

I don't think I've found a completely error free DB yet - which is why requesting the DB editor is recommended for such situations. You can patch up the DB as you play.

I still generally use 3.8 for editing. It's not recommended, but when further tools become available, all the edits I've done so far will go ahead. It's forwards compatible. Some information is only available via the DB editor (for instance, comm information).

Development is continuing on ANW but there is no current release date for the next patch.

I must admit, the Colonial Wars DB (1956-1971) V2.2 is one I have had most fun with recently. Available from harpoonhq.com

You can have several databases available with the same ANW install - but you can only use one at a time (I've tried multitasking and it never seems to work right for me).

H:CE does not have a multiplayer option. ANW is multiplayer.

I've played many scens in several DBs and not found Soviets specifically hard to play. As said above its easy to change DB and you automatically then choose from the scens made with that DB.
 
Freek

Thanks, gentlemen, for your advice thus far.

Enjoying the H3 Demo, playing through the tutorials (all in real-time) to get some semblance of a grasp of things. I'm learning a lot about naval warfare as I go with the demo and only 2 CTDs in dozens of RT hours now -nay bad at all.

However, as is often the case, as you move along in unfamiliar territory more questions present themselves, so I'm going to ask you experts for further advice. Please bear with, as the n00b really is clueless at this moment in time!

I'm going to purchase H3, no doubt there. The intent is to try and set up some initial scenarios involving WW2/GPW soviet naval action. Okay, WW2 on the soviet side was clearly a war of the RKKA ground forces with the RKKA:VVS used in a supportive role as per the doctrine of the day. So...

Q. What do we know of soviet naval engagements during WW2 in what was (for the red army) essentially a ground/air war -at first defensive, then highly aggressive?

Anything I'm trying to find on WW2 soviet studies is yielding next to nothing so far. Seems the navy was also committed to the support of the army in a coastal defense role (extending to civilian commandeering) etc etc -does anyone know of any reliable reference material on this stuff I could get stuck into? (I'm inclined to suppose at this point I may well be limited to soviet convoy raiding or the support of allied convoys in my scenarios --I really have no idea atm whether there were any full-on axis v soviet naval engagements at all.)

Q. I'll (obviously) require DB1945V3.7.1 for Harpoon ANW V3.7.0 here with a 3.8 version to follow. Does anyone use this DB frequently? To what extent is the soviet navy modelled?

Q. From the Demo: 'Composite Warfare Command Sctructure:

Harpoon uses a command structure based upon the U.S. Navy's Composite Warfare Command.'

I presume that the above exists as a fundamental rule in the game engine and also a convention used to streamline the experience rather than actually utilising U.S. strategic Doctrine? I dunno. I guess the Warsaw Pact didn't use a U.S. Naval Warfare command, never mind the WW2 Baltic Fleet. Trying to get my head around this one in a n00bish manner, but I'm guessing the former is the case. Advice gratefully received!

Regards,

I would try the WWII database, I thinks its at Harpoon headquarters. That will let you know how the game engine handles 'gun' engagements and such. It has been a while since I tried that one. I know some others here can give more detailed information than I.

ORIGINAL: Volga

Thanks, gentlemen, for your advice thus far.

Enjoying the H3 Demo, playing through the tutorials (all in real-time) to get some semblance of a grasp of things. I'm learning a lot about naval warfare as I go with the demo and only 2 CTDs in dozens of RT hours now -nay bad at all.

However, as is often the case, as you move along in unfamiliar territory more questions present themselves, so I'm going to ask you experts for further advice. Please bear with, as the n00b really is clueless at this moment in time!

I'm going to purchase H3, no doubt there. The intent is to try and set up some initial scenarios involving WW2/GPW soviet naval action. Okay, WW2 on the soviet side was clearly a war of the RKKA ground forces with the RKKA:VVS used in a supportive role as per the doctrine of the day. So...

Q. What do we know of soviet naval engagements during WW2 in what was (for the red army) essentially a ground/air war -at first defensive, then highly aggressive?

Anything I'm trying to find on WW2 soviet studies is yielding next to nothing so far. Seems the navy was also committed to the support of the army in a coastal defense role (extending to civilian commandeering) etc etc -does anyone know of any reliable reference material on this stuff I could get stuck into? (I'm inclined to suppose at this point I may well be limited to soviet convoy raiding or the support of allied convoys in my scenarios --I really have no idea atm whether there were any full-on axis v soviet naval engagements at all.)

Good to hear the news on your decision to jump to Harpoon ANW. I have news from the Front Comrade.

30th August 1941 - Baltic Front

The ships of the squadron of the Baltic Fleet are concentrated to form an artillery support force for the Leningrad Front under Rear Adm I. I. Gren. The first group is on the Neva consisting of the destroyers Opytny (provisionally completed) and Strogi, Stroiny and the gunboats Zeya, Sestroretski and Oka to support the 42nd and 55th Armies SE of Leningrad. The second group is in the Leningrad area as far as the eastern part of the Sea Canal with the cruiser Petropavlovsk (Capt 1st Class Vanifatev), which is still being fitted out and which has two turrets capable of firing, the flotilla leader Leningrad, the destroyers Svirepy, Grozyashchi, Silny, Stoiki and Storozhevoi (being repaired) and probably the minelayer Marti. The third group is in the area Kronstadt - Oranienbaum with the battleship Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya (Rear - Adm M. S. Moskalenko) and Marat (Capt 1st Class M. G. Ivanov), the cruiser Kirov (Capt 1st Class M. G. Sukhoruchenko), the flotilla leader Minsk, the destroyers Surovy, Gordy, Smetlivy, Slavny, Steregushchi and Strashny (the last two are being repaired) and the gunboat Volga.

Reproduced from:
Chronology Of The War At Sea 1939 - 1945
- The Naval History of World War Two
J. Rohwer & G Hummelchen
Greenhill Books, London 1992. p 83.

Cheers

Darren

Volga,

I'll look for more information regarding naval groups for say Baltic operations. I'll also see what I can find for you as far as the German naval groups that were operating in the same theatre. I would think once you have the basic groupings, and possibly where they were operating you could allow your imagaination to run woild and have all kinds of simulated WW2 naval actions.

I also have a few Conway's publications covering the era and could probably help you with platform stats if yyou wanted to have a shot at editing a database for your personal use. I hope to be working toward a WW2 DB as part of the HUD3 family and have already started looking at some of the issues involved with modelling WW2 with the current game code. An obvious example is how aircraft can presently be launched 24/7 in ANW regardless of their level of instrumentation. There's no VFR (Visual Flight Rules) setting in the database and so night strikes are an unwanted feature of WW2 battles. There are various ways using rearming periods to overcome this... I'm a firm believer in working with AGSI to introduce the correct handling of such features/improvements rather than simply working around the issue via modifying my database.

H3ANW and it's decendants are being closely tied to Larry Bond and Chris Carlson's Triology Naval Warfare system. This will mean that eventually [;)] we should be able to model from HMS Dreadnought, through to say 2020 and beyond. This is good news for those interested in say pre WW1 battles (Russo - Japanese War), WW1 & WW2 and all the way to where we are today. Again if you need details or would even like to get involved with DB development there's plenty of people here that aren't involved in the infighting [:)]

Also if your interested in particular dates/battles for WW2 Soviet/German naval engagements, just let me know and I'll see what I can dig up for you.

Cheers

Darren

[Deleted by Admins]

Excellent.

Replying, in no particular order and with varying degrees of lucidity, to issues brought up here:

1.

...involved in the infighting [:)]

Ayup. Like everyone else hereabouts, I've read the history of the antagonism, read Mr. Bond's letter to the community and so on. Fact is, in my own case, I have a boxed set of Harpoon for the Amiga 1200 (R.I.P.), enjoyed it, and that's the sum total of the Harpoon experience. Never owned Harpoon 2 or 3 or 3.6.

Harpoon 3.9 -> TNH(?) is what we've all got to work with, if I read all of this correctly, if we want progress towards THE benchmark naval sim. The authors of the many Harpoon scenarios and databases are all to be applauded for spending their time for the betterment of the community. It's a shame, really when things get acrimonious -it needn't be that way. Harpoon has a lot going for it -that's the view of someone who hasn't participated in prior disagreements. I'm just a new player who just so happens to want a benchmark naval sim -and I think we can go for it with Harpoon. It's kinda unique after all.

Allow me to provide illustrations/comparisons in support of this argument.

Let's take Sonalysts. They could release such a benchmark in time, one could posit. Dangerous Waters, although a very different beast, might possibly lead to something very extra-ordinary in its next iteration, but I'd hazard a guess that development on their part for commercial games is on the wane, due to their good fortune elsewhere, where any revenues will far out-strip the pennies earned from a new PC/Mac game by a considerable margin.

The Operational Art of War - I find this game to be closer to Harpoon in spirit than Sub Command or what have you. Supposing I want to design a scenario where I can deploy a pair of Beriev Be-12s, accompanied by Yak-9D escorts from its airbase, in support of soviet troop ships invading Japan in January 1946, I should (with some graft) be able to manage it in Harpoon 3.8 -> which already caters to my requirements, i.e. the WW2 period and its associated DB, much like TAOW would enable me to see how Guard's tank regiments would fare against a very defensive Japanese opponent on the ground.

Silent Hunter 3 and 4. Fun stuff - and they look to be current benchmarks for single boat sims but they're at the opposite end of the zoo. I'm locked into a nazi or U.S. boat sim here. Not for me, I'm afraid.

Finally getting to the point though (huzzah!) -what do these games share? Their respective communities appear to work together for the betterment of all, an observation which the chap from Panther Games has already provided here, by providing mods etc that ultimately empower the end-user by giving him/her some plain old fashioned fun and throwing in some educational value to boot.

Really, what is there to argue over here? Life's too short -- let's just move on, folks.

ORIGINAL: Bucks

I'll look for more information regarding naval groups for say Baltic operations. I'll also see what I can find for you as far as the German naval groups that were operating in the same theatre. I would think once you have the basic groupings, and possibly where they were operating you could allow your imagaination to run wild and have all kinds of simulated WW2 naval actions.

Thank you. That would prove useful. Oddly enough, a good sourcing of RKKF units is to be found in the work of the Hearts of Iron Doomsday/CORE community where the not inconsiderable soviet submarine fleets are represented well.

Also - http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/fo ... 34&ID=8305 is proving useful as a starting place -the last post therein is piquing the old interest like you wouldn't believe.

ORIGINAL: VCDH

Regarding the Russians....

Harpoon players have problems with Russian units because they use those units in the same way that they user US, or other western units. Russian and ex-Soviet units were not designed for those tactics.

That was something that I was wondering about also. Implementing the broader strategic picture for soviet doctrines is presumably far outside the scope of anything a scenario writer can achieve? Or would there be a sensible compromise to be had someplace? (Or indeed, required at all if it doesn't impair one's playing of, and enjoying, any such scenarios).

Thanks for your help, gents -much appreciated.

ORIGINAL: Bucks

Volga,

H3ANW and it's decendants are being closely tied to Larry Bond and Chris Carlson's Triology Naval Warfare system. This will mean that eventually [;)] we should be able to model from HMS Dreadnought, through to say 2020 and beyond. This is good news for those interested in say pre WW1 battles (Russo - Japanese War)

Darren

Sold! That's really good news. Cheers.

ORIGINAL: Volga
Harpoon 3.9 -> TNH(?) is what we've all got to work with, if I read all of this correctly, if we want progress towards THE benchmark naval sim. The authors of the many Harpoon scenarios and databases are all to be applauded for spending their time for the betterment of the community. It's a shame, really when things get acrimonious -it needn't be that way. Harpoon has a lot going for it -that's the view of someone who hasn't participated in prior disagreements. I'm just a new player who just so happens to want a benchmark naval sim -and I think we can go for it with Harpoon. It's kinda unique after all.

Well, you do have HCE too, just because ANW is the golden child doesn't mean HCE is dog meat. The HCE groupies spend more time working together than working apart and so compares somewhat favorably to your suggestion of the influence of community cohesiveness. The organization of the HCE project might also prove to have benefits. We're small but hopefully we'll continue to accomplish good things in part due to the small organization and relative freedom we have. Now, if ANW gets some really big military contracts HCE will be left in the dust!

[Deleted by Admins]