Matrix Games Forums

One device (92) is wrong in

LEVEL 7 only

RHSCVO

RHSRAO

RHSBBO and

RHSRPO

this device is an old 18 inch torpedo and it affects some aircraft in some units (not most or all units even for those aircraft)
Apparently Vildebeeste IL-4 and Beaufort

This device is dynamically shown in aircraft and air unit databases. So putting a correct device file in the set fixes all issues.

One could rename RHSPPO or RHSMAIO device files as spd070, 071, 072 or 073.

Or use a special update just for these scenarios with them already fixed.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

One device (92) is wrong in

LEVEL 7 only

RHSCVO

RHSRAO

RHSBBO and

RHSRPO

this device is an old 18 inch torpedo and it affects some aircraft in some units (not most or all units even for those aircraft)
Apparently Vildebeeste IL-4 and Beaufort

This device is dynamically shown in aircraft and air unit databases. So putting a correct device file in the set fixes all issues.

One could rename RHSPPO or RHSMAIO device files as spd070, 071, 072 or 073.

Or use a special update just for these scenarios with them already fixed.

I tried to be too clever in one of my games (RHSCVO), and had some Vildebeests with torps, and unit of Vincents', with the bombs.
The bomb carrying planes were almost depleted so I thought "why not just disband the Vincent group and absorb them into the group with torps"? (My true motive was selfish, I wanted more torpedo planes as they are much more damaging to an opponent.)
Well, instead, the entire group of planes turned into bombless/torpedo-less planes, and can now only be used a recon types, for all practical purposes.

NOTE:I had already become aware of the problem with the torpedo slot making the Vildebeest carry a land mortar and had already manually changed them to the 18 in torp, but got well into a game before I realised the Beaufort was also effected.
In my own personal "aircraft mod", I had been dealing ONLY with ranges and aircraft maneuverability on approx 95% of any changes I had made to aircraft, had not checked all weaponloads, just a few.
Apparently, (from the example I have given),as you have noted, the slot itself for that weapon seems to be flawed, as my occasion of retro-fitting has shown, but even stranger is that a few days later, the planes DID go back to carrying torpedoes!

Too bad a patch cannot be made to correct problems like this within a saved-game file,(during an on-going game), rather than needing to re-strt to correct problems, (like my Beauforts.)

BTW, glad to see so many of the CHS/RHS rare aircraft coming to AE...........[;)]

Yes - this was a tangled web.

It was noticed - more than once - that some units or planes had problems with "mortars" -
so some records got "fixed" - without understanding that those records were really right to begin with -
and just dynamically showed the wrong device in the right slot.

As a result - the "fixed" Vildebeeste" carries a different British 18 inch torpedo - in the aircraft record.
IF you upgrade to that aircraft - you WILL get torpedo bombers - slightly too effective since their torpedo is
slightly too good (a compensation for not haveing torpedos earlier???).

Now the problem is you cannot upgrade a British unit until 4/42. But the two cases of Soviet naval air force IL-4s are
different - they can upgrade whenever they appear - and indeed you can 'cheat" and upgrade other IL-4 units to torpedo carriers.
This is wrong in terms of doctrine and training - but in RHS the performance of bombers vs non ships is so much better with bombs
that I think you shoot yoruself in the foot if you do it - so I don't complain if someone does. The Soviet Long Range Air Force IL-4
has 10 100 kg and 3 250 kg bombs - a whale of a lot of firepower to trade for a single torpedo.

Anyway - it turns out that there were two versions of the device file - differing by a single record - and this probably editor induced.
Any new game will be fine. It turns out that any unit that upgrades to a Vildebeeste will get a torpedo - so even a unit with "bad ones" can upgrade to something else - than back to it - and get a similar weapon.

Becauise many - most in fact - of these units - do NOT have torpedos in the first place - many units were not affected. We tried to limit torpedos to units that had them - but unlike many Forum discussions - we were not just focused on Japanese torpedo bombers. There are two cases - some with the torpedo as default - and others (eg the Ki-67) with bombs default. Here it was a torpedo default with many units not so fitted. As far as I know, only RHS and derivitives use multiple loadouts for the "same" aircraft.

Not following you at all here Sid and I am having trouble with the naming conventions being used.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

One device (92) is wrong in

LEVEL 7 only

RHSCVO

RHSRAO

RHSBBO and

RHSRPO

Are you saying all other scenairos except these are OK? I am only interested in CAIO, AIO and MAIO.

this device is an old 18 inch torpedo and it affects some aircraft in some units (not most or all units even for those aircraft)
Apparently Vildebeeste IL-4 and Beaufort

This device is dynamically shown in aircraft and air unit databases. So putting a correct device file in the set fixes all issues.

Why are you changing the wpc (ship class) files in 072 and 073? Are the wpg (air group) files OK in these? If ship class files are also incorrect why are not 070 and 071 wpc files not changed?
One could rename RHSPPO or RHSMAIO device files as spd070, 071, 072 or 073.

Are you saying here that the game recognizes spd as a file name in the SCEN files? Also, does this mean that the wpd (device) files are also screwed up?
Or use a special update just for these scenarios with them already fixed.

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach


Are you saying all other scenairos except these are OK? I am only interested in CAIO, AIO and MAIO.

Yes

I took my time - did a thorough investigation - and ultimately found there was a root cause in a single file. I checked all 22 RHS scenarios - and found the same problem in only four of them - the four listed above. All the other 18 are fine. All Level 5 and 6 did not have the issue. Only scenarios 70 to 73 had it. Which is why I described this matter as I did - and issued a single device file with those four names: they needed it - others do not. To further clarify - I said you could rename the other device files - because that is the same solution. If you can use the device file in CAIO in the problem cases - it means CAIO is fine. Does that make sense?

Why are you changing the wpc (ship class) files in 072 and 073? Are the wpg (air group) files OK in these? If ship class files are also incorrect why are not 070 and 071 wpc files not changed?

[/quote]

I did not change them. Why are you asking?

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Not following you at all here Sid and I am having trouble with the naming conventions being used.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

One device (92) is wrong in

LEVEL 7 only

RHSCVO

RHSRAO

RHSBBO and

RHSRPO

Are you saying all other scenairos except these are OK? I am only interested in CAIO, AIO and MAIO.

this device is an old 18 inch torpedo and it affects some aircraft in some units (not most or all units even for those aircraft)
Apparently Vildebeeste IL-4 and Beaufort

This device is dynamically shown in aircraft and air unit databases. So putting a correct device file in the set fixes all issues.

pme could rename RHSPPO or RHSMAIO device files as spd070, 071, 072 or 073.



Are you saying here that the game recognizes spd as a file name in the SCEN files? Also, does this mean that the wpd (device) files are also screwed up?
Or use a special update just for these scenarios with them already fixed.

This is a confused question. Since it refers to AIRCRAFT and AIR UNIT files - and is talking about DEVICE files reflecting through into them -
it is about device files affecting aircraft devices in aircraft files and air group files. The only thing wrong with what I said is that at one point wpd got typed as spd. But the last letter says "device file" - and all data files start with wp - so it should not be too confusing.

It appears that the devices are dynamically linked to the aircraft and groups using them. The same thing would also apply to a ship file if the device appeared in it - and a torpedo device CAN appear in both ship and aircraft files. This is absolutely so with the game files you use to start a game with - so issuing a corrected device file (or renaming it as indicated) WILL fix the first savegame file of any new game - as stated.
Wether changing the device record in a save game file would also work is a different question - and while the answer is likely the same (if only because it is easier to copy a field as is than to change its nature) - it does not matter - since we are not changing the save game file here.

This notice is a courtesy update about a detected problem. It was thoroughly investigaged and two solutions were offered to prevent any new game from having any issue: use the uploaded files or rename files you already have as instructed. IN ADDITION - as a separate matter - I described how you can work around the problems in ongoing games. This problem is substantially solvable using player procedures. There is yet another solution - but it requires changing the save game files - and the one time I offered to do that - it was declined. But it can be done by anyone with low level editors and the ability to understand the records involved .

This is not a very substantial problem. Few units are involved. Most or all can be fixed in one way or another. The units also can perform a majority of their missions - not just recon as alleged by someone above. The probably even perform anti-shipping missions at extended range - this is forced by hard code to use the right bomb device. I just did not want players to be in a situation where they were surprised by it. I have defined the problem and the solutions - and each person may take whatever action they deem appropriate. I have not restarted any games because of it.

The point of playtesting is to find problems of this sort. There are about 133,000 editable fields in a single scenario (and I manage 22 such scenarios). These are built on top of exiting files which were never eratta free - and so much was changed that there MUST BE MANY problems of incorrect fields. Thousands of them. If they were 99 per cent clean - there woujld be 13,300 bad fields. Pretending ANY scenario of any mod is free from this problem is to ignore information theory in its most basic sense: we KNOW there are problems. The only question is - do we want to find them? Well - there is also the question - do we want to fix them? In RHS we not only want to find them, we want to fix them ASAP - and openly so - giving players the information to decide what they would like to do? But this should not be taken to imly there are no such problems in other places: information theory says there must be many such. This is like CDC - a company that paid a thousand dollars for every reported bug: do that long enough and the code gets pretty clean. We hope to leave these scenarios in a cleaner form than is usually done. But to get there - we must seek out problems and solutions - and then make them available to players. I do not apologiae for the fact this is "unstable" - if there is a problem - I will report it and fix it. And keep looking for more problems - which I predict we will find - and fix.

ORIGINAL: el cid again



Why are you changing the wpc (ship class) files in 072 and 073? Are the wpg (air group) files OK in these? If ship class files are also incorrect why are not 070 and 071 wpc files not changed?

I did not change them. Why are you asking?
[/quote]

The file attached to your email distributing the files was named wpc073. The files included in that folder are wpg 070, wpg 070 and wpc 072, wpc 073.

Post withdrawn by a grouchy old man!!

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

ORIGINAL: el cid again



Why are you changing the wpc (ship class) files in 072 and 073? Are the wpg (air group) files OK in these? If ship class files are also incorrect why are not 070 and 071 wpc files not changed?

I did not change them. Why are you asking?

The file attached to your email distributing the files was named wpc073. The files included in that folder are wpg 070, wpg 070 and wpc 072, wpc 073.
[/quote]

Hmmm - all you need is wpd - wpa and wpg are included for safety and completeness - but should change instantaneously if you load a game or editor with the right wpd. Still - I can re upload all the wpgs if some were not included. I email to myself - but didn't notice this.

files re uploaded

4 device files

4 aircraft files

4 air group files

ONLY for scenarios 70 to 73

NO changes to any - a safety upload to insure any game start with these scenarios has torpedoes for device 92