WitW-HKD Allied Fleet
Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:55 pm
The Intention is, to create a TEA fleet, that is a real threat to the Allied ships throughout the war. For that, TEA will cheat whereever possible.
As the importance of CVs isn't realized until approx. one year after the beginning of the war, all fleets will rely on BBs and not on CVs - which may change in the war.
First the official fleet strenght of the TEA+ it's allies at the time where the Washington Naval Treaty is cancelled 1936:
Germany: 10BBs
Poland: 2BBs, 2 pre-Dread
Finnland: 2BCs, 2 pre-Dread
Russia: 7BBs, perhaps 14BBs with 7 in Europe and 7 in Asia - needs to be discussed
Austria: 4BBs
Italy: 6BBs
Greece: 3BBs (according to the 1913 fleet expansion plan - probably old Austrian BBs)
Chile: 2BBs
Argentina: 2-3BBs
Yugoslavia: 2-3BBs
potential allied with TEA:
Denmark (1BB), Sweden(2BBs), Norway(1BB, 2 pre-Dread) after an British intervention to cut off Germany's ore supply from Narvik (as the British thought about in WW2)
Spain (3-4BBs) + Portugal (only cruisers up to perhaps some pre-Dread from the US or 1BB)
42 without the potential Allies, without two Russian fleets but with the maximum of all x-y fleets
56 with all potential allies and two russian fleets (of which 5 BBs will lay in front of Persia while the other 2 are in Asia and most likely won't be able to flee to europe.
Allies:
GB: 20BBs
US: 18BBs not before 42 or 43
Japan: 10BBs first units in Europe not before 6 month after beginning of the war
France: 7BBs
Brazil (2-3BBs) not before 42 or 43
Turkey 2BC and 2pre-Dreads
60 BBs
Potential Allies:
Spain and Portugal (see above)
Netherland (up to 2BB and 2BC) and Belgium (max. cruisers)
Mexico: 2BB
Potential Dominion fleets after declaration of full independance - so no collective foreign policy and no full integration of HMAS, HMCS, HMNZS, etc. into the RN:
Canada: 1-2BBs
South Africa: 1BB
Australia: 2BBs
NZ: propably only Cruisers, max. 1 BB
77 BBs absolute maximum
so 42:60 standard
or 56:72(without Spain and Portugal) maximum
After 36, only Germany and Japan will run a maximum expansion program. The Allied Nations will make their historical buildings until the beginning of the war. Italy may also built its historical units which are all completed (so no Aquila nearly completed for years...), Austria and Russia will built some more units, but not everything that's possible - perhaps 2BBs Austria; 4-5 BBs Russia
Within the war, the UK production will be nearly as historical (as I believe it was already running on maximum) with less SC produced as Germany will not rely on Subs. The US production may be perhaps somehow enlarged within historical means, but I guess it wasn't that far from maximum production as well, no?
When the TEA forces rearm every possible pre-Dread and BB, they are possible to get additional:
Germany: 15BBs (propably 1-2 less as sold to the scandinavion countrys), 14 pre-Dread
Poland: 2 pre-Dread
Russia: 4-8 BBs, 5 pre-Dread
Austria + Yugoslavia: 9 pre-Dread, all BBs are sold to Yugoslavia and Greece
Italy: 1-3 BBs
So when I assume 1 year to rearm all and I take the absolutly unrealistic case that all old ships are preserved and still in a sufficiant shape to be used, the situation before any expansion in 1936 will be in the maximum case (with spain+portugal TEA; Mexico, Netherlands Allied):
82 BBs + 36 pre-Dread (in most cases more heavy CA than BB) : 72
The allies will have an advantege in Carriers and will built significant more in the war, so the situation might be quite even, no?
This would change the game very much. Instead of being superior the first few month and just defending and hoping to fight as good as possible, both sides are at least somehow compareable throughout the war. Moreover, the TEA will be very widespread at the beginning which gives the British some chances to reduce its strength, but by sheer numbers, the TEA will be absolutly superior until the Japanese Fleet arrives and the Netherlands, USA, Brazil and Mexico enter the war.
This is indeed the Idea, to create a game where the "Axis" side is somehow equal to the allied and may even threat it seriously.
To explain why Britain should allow Germany a rapid expansion program, we can take some reasons:
1. an isolationist leftist government
2. economical problems and a government that is unwillig to built arms for debts.
3. A German-English friendship, that makes GB feel quite save despite the fact that Germanys navy is expanding rapidly after 1936.
An explanation for that is copied from the TEA-fleet thread:
Look how fast the "Friendship" between France and Germany was installed after 1945. It was already in 1952, when the EGKS was founded and in 1963 the Elysée Treaty was signed. In my scenario, Germany accepted peace as there's no big chance to win the war while the loss of the war isn't likely as well. The monarchs of GB and Germany are related and Germany offers together with the armisteace a regulation of the fleet to offer security to britain. So why shouldn't both countrys start a process of conciliation after 1917? This is absolutly possible as the war doesn't break out because of Germany attacking GB oder F or vice versa - it breaks out when the Russian Airforce attacks British ships in Persia. Germany, France and GB are just forced to fight against each other because of their alliances, not because of hatred between the peoples or because of long planned war aims.
While France and GB wouldn't ring their alarm bells when Germany enlarges its army nowadays, there might be more tolerance for a naval expansion program or the preservation of old ships as it would have been between the two Wold Wars IRL.
Assuming this will allow the TEAs nations to have a stronger navy than one would usually consider.
As the importance of CVs isn't realized until approx. one year after the beginning of the war, all fleets will rely on BBs and not on CVs - which may change in the war.
First the official fleet strenght of the TEA+ it's allies at the time where the Washington Naval Treaty is cancelled 1936:
Germany: 10BBs
Poland: 2BBs, 2 pre-Dread
Finnland: 2BCs, 2 pre-Dread
Russia: 7BBs, perhaps 14BBs with 7 in Europe and 7 in Asia - needs to be discussed
Austria: 4BBs
Italy: 6BBs
Greece: 3BBs (according to the 1913 fleet expansion plan - probably old Austrian BBs)
Chile: 2BBs
Argentina: 2-3BBs
Yugoslavia: 2-3BBs
potential allied with TEA:
Denmark (1BB), Sweden(2BBs), Norway(1BB, 2 pre-Dread) after an British intervention to cut off Germany's ore supply from Narvik (as the British thought about in WW2)
Spain (3-4BBs) + Portugal (only cruisers up to perhaps some pre-Dread from the US or 1BB)
42 without the potential Allies, without two Russian fleets but with the maximum of all x-y fleets
56 with all potential allies and two russian fleets (of which 5 BBs will lay in front of Persia while the other 2 are in Asia and most likely won't be able to flee to europe.
Allies:
GB: 20BBs
US: 18BBs not before 42 or 43
Japan: 10BBs first units in Europe not before 6 month after beginning of the war
France: 7BBs
Brazil (2-3BBs) not before 42 or 43
Turkey 2BC and 2pre-Dreads
60 BBs
Potential Allies:
Spain and Portugal (see above)
Netherland (up to 2BB and 2BC) and Belgium (max. cruisers)
Mexico: 2BB
Potential Dominion fleets after declaration of full independance - so no collective foreign policy and no full integration of HMAS, HMCS, HMNZS, etc. into the RN:
Canada: 1-2BBs
South Africa: 1BB
Australia: 2BBs
NZ: propably only Cruisers, max. 1 BB
77 BBs absolute maximum
so 42:60 standard
or 56:72(without Spain and Portugal) maximum
After 36, only Germany and Japan will run a maximum expansion program. The Allied Nations will make their historical buildings until the beginning of the war. Italy may also built its historical units which are all completed (so no Aquila nearly completed for years...), Austria and Russia will built some more units, but not everything that's possible - perhaps 2BBs Austria; 4-5 BBs Russia
Within the war, the UK production will be nearly as historical (as I believe it was already running on maximum) with less SC produced as Germany will not rely on Subs. The US production may be perhaps somehow enlarged within historical means, but I guess it wasn't that far from maximum production as well, no?
When the TEA forces rearm every possible pre-Dread and BB, they are possible to get additional:
Germany: 15BBs (propably 1-2 less as sold to the scandinavion countrys), 14 pre-Dread
Poland: 2 pre-Dread
Russia: 4-8 BBs, 5 pre-Dread
Austria + Yugoslavia: 9 pre-Dread, all BBs are sold to Yugoslavia and Greece
Italy: 1-3 BBs
So when I assume 1 year to rearm all and I take the absolutly unrealistic case that all old ships are preserved and still in a sufficiant shape to be used, the situation before any expansion in 1936 will be in the maximum case (with spain+portugal TEA; Mexico, Netherlands Allied):
82 BBs + 36 pre-Dread (in most cases more heavy CA than BB) : 72
The allies will have an advantege in Carriers and will built significant more in the war, so the situation might be quite even, no?
This would change the game very much. Instead of being superior the first few month and just defending and hoping to fight as good as possible, both sides are at least somehow compareable throughout the war. Moreover, the TEA will be very widespread at the beginning which gives the British some chances to reduce its strength, but by sheer numbers, the TEA will be absolutly superior until the Japanese Fleet arrives and the Netherlands, USA, Brazil and Mexico enter the war.
This is indeed the Idea, to create a game where the "Axis" side is somehow equal to the allied and may even threat it seriously.
To explain why Britain should allow Germany a rapid expansion program, we can take some reasons:
1. an isolationist leftist government
2. economical problems and a government that is unwillig to built arms for debts.
3. A German-English friendship, that makes GB feel quite save despite the fact that Germanys navy is expanding rapidly after 1936.
An explanation for that is copied from the TEA-fleet thread:
Look how fast the "Friendship" between France and Germany was installed after 1945. It was already in 1952, when the EGKS was founded and in 1963 the Elysée Treaty was signed. In my scenario, Germany accepted peace as there's no big chance to win the war while the loss of the war isn't likely as well. The monarchs of GB and Germany are related and Germany offers together with the armisteace a regulation of the fleet to offer security to britain. So why shouldn't both countrys start a process of conciliation after 1917? This is absolutly possible as the war doesn't break out because of Germany attacking GB oder F or vice versa - it breaks out when the Russian Airforce attacks British ships in Persia. Germany, France and GB are just forced to fight against each other because of their alliances, not because of hatred between the peoples or because of long planned war aims.
While France and GB wouldn't ring their alarm bells when Germany enlarges its army nowadays, there might be more tolerance for a naval expansion program or the preservation of old ships as it would have been between the two Wold Wars IRL.
Assuming this will allow the TEAs nations to have a stronger navy than one would usually consider.