Matrix Games Forums

I have not tried this, but I have been told that the defender in a fight can save the files, pick his chit, and then over write the files with the saved files to "fix" the fight. I would like to suggest a quick fix to this problem. The problem with an email game is that we don't know most of the people we play with, and we like to believe they are honest. But sometimes they are not.

The simple fix is just to add one more step. The Attacker picks his chit choice and sends the battle file to the defender. The Defender picks his chit chice and sends it back to the Attacker. No information is revealed until the Attacker has the Battle File back. Now with both choices locked in the choices are revealed. I would also like to recommend that the Attackers choice is not included in the battle file that is sent to the defender. I know that this slows down the game a bit, but I think it would be worth it. I hate even thinking that the person who picked the "Perfect Defense" might not have played fair. And lets be honest, we all wonder if that is the case sometimes.

Thanks for your time.
Larry W. Rose

ORIGINAL: larrywrose

I have not tried this, but I have been told that the defender in a fight can save the files, pick his chit, and then over write the files with the saved files to "fix" the fight. I would like to suggest a quick fix to this problem. The problem with an email game is that we don't know most of the people we play with, and we like to believe they are honest. But sometimes they are not.

The simple fix is just to add one more step. The Attacker picks his chit choice and sends the battle file to the defender. The Defender picks his chit chice and sends it back to the Attacker. No information is revealed until the Attacker has the Battle File back. Now with both choices locked in the choices are revealed. I would also like to recommend that the Attackers choice is not included in the battle file that is sent to the defender. I know that this slows down the game a bit, but I think it would be worth it. I hate even thinking that the person who picked the "Perfect Defense" might not have played fair. And lets be honest, we all wonder if that is the case sometimes.

Thanks for your time.
Larry W. Rose

I dont quite see how this would solve it ? if its dice roll involved.
Best option seems if battles where fought through some server, preferable the host.

Where host just needs to execute some incomming files in some host-folder. There dice rolls would be executed and both get the result file. Then take casulties, and then Consider if guard-commit/reinforce. Then next round. Then send your choices to host, where the pgm takes care of updating forces with casulties, rolls for guards/reinforce, and then finnaly roll next combat round.
Its not like the host needs to see any details, just execute some icon, which then creates new battle-files/result-files.

There would be couple extra emails involved, when host is included.(case he not involved).

If you cant trust your host, i dont think you would play the game.
As far as i know in EIA casulties where not taken in any special order eg att/defender.
And it would reduce the belief in cheats quite some i think.

Regards
Bresh

Matrix is not going to alter the procedure of battle files' exchanging.
So it's not possible to try the good solution proposed by Larrywrose.
A simpler solution is to send the chit choices to the host.
In other words, when both the players have decided the chit to be used in the ensuing battle, they send an e-mail to the host indicating their choice.
The host confirms to the players to have properly received the two choices and then the attacker sends the first battle file to the defender and the usual procedure begins.
I know that the defender is able to cheat on the die rolls, but this influences far less the outcome of the battle, than the chit selection.
In a PBEM game that I'm playing I picked two times in a row the perfect defense and I was happy to have communicated previously to the host my choices just to make sure that I was not cheating. 
Nobody requested me that notification and nobody after the battles asked the host if my choice was really sent in advance, but I felt better anyway.
This could be a house rule to be introduced in the most important battles, avoiding the players to ask for a such a "suspicious" procedure.
 
Regards
Cunctator
 

If Matrix will not change a proceedure to protect the integrity of the game, I think I would have a problem with that. Who wants to play a game that can't be played fair? Actually the best solution to all of it would be a Matrix Battle Server. All battle files are sent to a Matrix Battle Server. Included in the file would be the email address of both players. The Battle Server automatically sends a Battle File to the Defender requesting a Chit Choice. It rolls the die and sends the results back. I know I am dreaming on this one, but that would be completely unbiased. It would also make the whole battle file thing go away. Maybe we can get that in the 2nd version of the game in 10 or 20 years. Actually Matrix should look at that for any new games in development. For Play By Email when you go into battle the game contacts the Matrix Battle Server, gets a Battle ID and sends the info to the Defender. You get a confirmation from the server, now you wait until the Defender does his turn and sends it back. Keeps everyone honest. People would really appreciate it.
 
Larry W. Rose

Call me crazy on this, but why would I want to play a game where I should assume my opponenet is cheating?

Thresh

I'm kinda the same way. I've always felt wargamers were of a different breed, but, after reading somes comments on games that are hard for them or they are losing I'm tending to believe we are being infiltrated by cheats, hacks and any other form of "gotta win at all cost" type gamers. Afterall the modern generation of gamers is from the Game Genie/Cheat Codes generation, though we do have some aged and experienced gamers whom I wouldn't think would cheat no matter what. We grew up in the learn it or lose it generation not the cheating cheat code game genie generation.
 
Probably the best thing to do is find out the age of your opponent. Anyone over oh 40 I'm pretty sure can be trusted. We is the baby boomers and we is the ones who grew up on Avalon Hill and SPI. The only cheating I ever saw in that was "sliding the dice" with 6's or 1's up. We made those players roll out of a cup afterwards. lol

Ravinhood,

The worst cheat I know is a 47 year old guy who hates to lose...

I'm just saying...

Thresh

ORIGINAL: Cunctator

Matrix is not going to alter the procedure of battle files' exchanging.
So it's not possible to try the good solution proposed by Larrywrose.
A simpler solution is to send the chit choices to the host.
In other words, when both the players have decided the chit to be used in the ensuing battle, they send an e-mail to the host indicating their choice.
The host confirms to the players to have properly received the two choices and then the attacker sends the first battle file to the defender and the usual procedure begins.
I know that the defender is able to cheat on the die rolls, but this influences far less the outcome of the battle, than the chit selection.
In a PBEM game that I'm playing I picked two times in a row the perfect defense and I was happy to have communicated previously to the host my choices just to make sure that I was not cheating. 
Nobody requested me that notification and nobody after the battles asked the host if my choice was really sent in advance, but I felt better anyway.
This could be a house rule to be introduced in the most important battles, avoiding the players to ask for a such a "suspicious" procedure.

Regards
Cunctator

Ok, bare with me since im bit drunk.......

Wish they could include guards and reinforcements in the 3.rd battle option.
There are ways to produce a online combat, in a chatroom/or some mud. are some but im sure there are more.
Since i played a couple muds, i know with a dice, a quill and couple notes, it could be simulated near to the "board" game.
eg writing chit choise on note, and then exchanging notes. Then each roll a die. And apply casulties/guards/reinforce eg.... and so on just like in a boardgame, "secret choices" just written to a note, and once both say ok done, they drop notes, and read them.
The advantage would be a combat only took a few minutes, the problem, both had to logon at the same time.

Regards
Bresh

So again, I am going to suggest the need for a central server hosted by Matrix. All rolls for any of their games go there. i hink it would be a big plus in selling their games as the only strategic site that eliminates cheats.
 
Why not do this?

ORIGINAL: Thresh

Ravinhood,

The worst cheat I know is a 47 year old guy who hates to lose...

I'm just saying...

Thresh

Seriously a 47 year old that cheats and cannot stand to lose? My my my what a childish mind. We always said if you have to cheat to win why play in the first place you are only cheating yourself out of a learning experience and will never improve and always be just a nobody and people won't like you and you will smell funny and their mother probably still dresses them funny also.

ORIGINAL: Yohan

So again, I am going to suggest the need for a central server hosted by Matrix. All rolls for any of their games go there. i hink it would be a big plus in selling their games as the only strategic site that eliminates cheats.

Why not do this?

Because it costs LOTS of money Yohan, you gonna pay a MONTHLY FEE to support that server?

Et voila, a simple and doable solution for the cheating issue (which do not slow down the game) I proposed some time ago...

-------------------------------

I am sorry to insist, but THERE ARE ways to avoid much of the cheating with pre-generated random numbers and to beat much of the "reloading and doing things in a different order" stuff. Here it is my proposal:

1a. Combat phase - Non trivial combat. Simple way of doing it:
a) The attacker choses his chits and sends to the defender.
b) The defender choses his cheats and the program generates the needed die rolls. None of them are shown (so no reload is possible), and
the file is sent back to the attacker.
c) Results of the first turn are shown to the attacker, he decides about guard commitment and sends back to the defender.
d) The defender receives, check for first turn results and decides about guard commitment. Needed die rolls are secretly generated
and stuff his sent back to attacker...
Go on until the end of the combat. No way of cheating here, large battles are often the crucial and more important ones in a game
and are now secured. Moreover, no more file exchanges then now are required.

1b. Combat phase - Trivial combat and assaults. Random numbers (different from the ones used in foraging duing the land phase) are
pre-generated during the previous player land turn (or naval phase if this is the first turn of land phase).
True, wicked players can alter the order of assaults and trivial battles to look for the most convenient die distribution, but still
these are generally non-decisive gains. Moreover, if you do not trust your opponent, do not give pre-assigned order to single corps.
Otherwise, the order in which assaults and trivial combat are taken can be fixed (by ascending area number, for instance) to avoid
cheating. It is a small price to pay (order of larger combats need not to be fixed) to avoid cheating.

2. Naval phase. This is the most delicate one. Intercept rolls and naval battle rolls here. The player playing the previous
turn pre-generates two different sets of random number, one for interception and one for combat. This way there is often
not so much room for reloading and rearranging order. Still, if you still do not trust the French from trying every turn
to beat GB blockade and invade, only to sistematically cancel his move when his ships are sunk, introduce a Naval combat phase.
It will not take too much time, just a single extra file exchange is needed per battle (and naval battle are much rarer then land one).
Procedure: attacker send out his naval battle file, defender generates the needed die number without seeing them, the file is
sent back to attacker and combat is resolved. Easy, fast and bullet proof.

3. Land phase. Only rolls here are foraging ones. Lets have your foraging rolls be pre-generated
by the player playing the previous turn. Of course, if you do not like the outcome of foraging
you can change their order or decide to pay for supply. This is (almost) unavoidable, but
advantages from this kind of cheating are at best mild.

4. Diplomacy and Economic phase: rolls here are not of extreme importance (influencing minors,
spanish gold, piracy...), but they can be pre-generated for the entire phase when the last
player playing the previous phase ends his turn. This will avoid reloading issues.

It is long to explain in detail, but as you can see, there are really no programming issues here. I guess it is pretty easy to implement.

There is another solution that I think is much easier to implement: add an option that allows the game master to generate die rolls and to selects the chits in selected battles.

When there are important battles:
- the phasing player sends the battle file to the GM
- both players send the chit choice to the GM that inputs them in the battle. The GM hits a button that fights the first turn and pre-generates 4 more die rolls that are invisible to the players at this stage
-the GM sends back the battle file to the attacking player and everything goes back to the normal procedure for the next 2 battle rounds.

It.

ORIGINAL: itmc09

There is another solution that I think is much easier to implement: add an option that allows the game master to generate die rolls and to selects the chits in selected battles.

When there are important battles:
- the phasing player sends the battle file to the GM
- both players send the chit choice to the GM that inputs them in the battle. The GM hits a button that fights the first turn and pre-generates 4 more die rolls that are invisible to the players at this stage
-the GM sends back the battle file to the attacking player and everything goes back to the normal procedure for the next 2 battle rounds.

It.

Sounds bit like my idea, though its not 4 die rolls, its possibly a ton of dice rolls, since to reinforce, you gotta roll for all avaible(there could be several single corps/stacks adjant). Then there are rolls for outflanks/withdraws each round.
And next Guard commitments.
Think resolving fights at host like i suggested would do better.

Regards
Bresh

Unless cheating is far more difficult, I have zero interest in a multi-player game.
There are very few people I trust to that degree.
 
Safeguards are put in place to keep honest people honest.
Cheating is very easy to justify mentally for too many people.
 
Others don't even need to do justify.  Winning is Winning.
 
 

Hey guys:
 
I'm always interested in making cheating more difficult. The trick is to make the cheating (while not impossible) certainly not worth the effort i.e. force the cheater to spend 100k to solve a 50k problem. I can see difficulty with a server based system just from a time perspective and also I intentionally tried to stay away from a server based system because of what it might require BUT I'm interested in this style of cheating (Defender retrying). Can you guys tell me exactly (in a little more detail) how the defender could cheat here ...
 
 

So, what everyone is sayin is that if/when I decide I have the time to play a PbEM game, I should automatically assume everyone is going to try and cheat, and should treat them accordingly...

Thanks, I'll pass....

Thresh

I'm not sure making cheating 'not worth the effort' will be a viable option. Your analogy doesn't really hold because the 'currency' on the two sides of the equation are not of the same type. i.e. the cheater will be spending 100k of effort outside of the game to gain 50k inside it, a trade off that most would take I suspect.

What might be a good, relatively quick way of approaching this would be to polish the 'quick combat' system to allow more preferences to be set for a defending stack. So the entire combat will play out without human intervention.

This will be a compromise solution that won't please everyone, but it will plug the immediate gap fairly easily as well as potentially speeding up games.

Sounds bit like my idea, though its not 4 die rolls, its possibly a ton of dice rolls, since to reinforce, you gotta roll for all avaible(there could be several single corps/stacks adjant). Then there are rolls for outflanks/withdraws each round.

From a programming point of view pre-generating 50 die rolls is the same as pre-generating 4. I agree the server would be a better option but this one is more realistic to achieve and at virtually 0 cost to implement for Matrix (except clearly for the programming time). In this way the defender has no way of knowing the chit chosen by the attacker and there is no way or replaying die rolls.

Why, server, just put it into hosting. files still exchanged, but when battle files needs to be exchanged.
Rolls happening at the host. Would be an easier solution to implement.


Regards
Bresh