Matrix Games Forums

1. the limitation on unit placement at set up - it leaves you no tactical options at the start and puts your troops in some unrealistic and stupid places.
2. Pathfindin - i have noticed units getting stuck behing one another if their paths cross and they seem unable to figure a way round each other without a lot of manual input

Thanks for your support and feedback! I'm glad you're enjoying the game - some comments in response to yours:

ORIGINAL: DBeves
1. the limitation on unit placement at set up - it leaves you no tactical options at the start and puts your troops in some unrealistic and stupid places.

Is this in the random battles that you are having this issue or in the historical set battles or campaigns? You can adjust up to 250m as long as you don't get too close to the enemy. That really has been plenty for me to find cover or a better position in most cases.

2. Pathfindin - i have noticed units getting stuck behing one another if their paths cross and they seem unable to figure a way round each other without a lot of manual input

I haven't seen ths in a long time myself, thought we had this solved after Winterstorm. If you have a save that duplicates this situation, could you please zip it up and post it in the tech support forum? I'll make sure we take a look at it. Out of curiosity, how much separation do you usually keep between your units?

Regards,

- Erik

Erik in regards to the units sticking to each other or pathfinding you can move each unit individually and not as a group or squad correct? I do remember this being a big issue with OWS and would have thought also this was fixed before the release of PCK.  If it's any consolation though it happens in CM as well if you don't set individual paths for each tank and/or vehicle and then they usually end up getting blown to pieces because of this. I found I had to have good separation and plot my paths with several waypoints to solve the issue. This game does have waypoints as well right?

No waypoints because it doesn't need them. None of the CM delay factor causing traffic jams. If you set up in column on a road and give a move order to the HQ, the units all move along at the same speed. You will see the plot lines if turned on, and the spacing stays the same. If a front unit stops, the other units will try to plot around it. Ok, not perfectly, there sometimes are confusions, but not as annoying as CM IMO.

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Erik in regards to the units sticking to each other or pathfinding you can move each unit individually and not as a group or squad correct?

Correct.

I do remember this being a big issue with OWS and would have thought also this was fixed before the release of PCK.

It was vastly improved, at the very least. Seems there are still a few instances to squash.

If it's any consolation though it happens in CM as well if you don't set individual paths for each tank and/or vehicle and then they usually end up getting blown to pieces because of this. I found I had to have good separation and plot my paths with several waypoints to solve the ssue. This game does have waypoints as well right?

No waypoints, if you want some funky maneuvering, you have to do it in stages. Honestly, keeping some separation between my units in each platoon I never have this problem any more whereas I sometimes did in the original Winterstorm.

Regards,

- Erik

Spread out give them some room.  
If they jam up they will usually unclog the next phase.

ORIGINAL: DBeves

2. Pathfindin - i have noticed units getting stuck behing one another if their paths cross and they seem unable to figure a way round each other without a lot of manual input

In my experience with PCOWS, this is almost exclusively a result of units having been placed too close together:

http://www.hq.wwiionline.com/articles/attack_mech3.gif

If you space your units properly, you shouldn't have any problems.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

Sorry Erik dont have a save - but will try and get one when I have time ... dont really get the "space your units correctly " whats a proper spacing ... anyhow seems to me a bunch of guys should know how to walk round a halftrack...

As for the unit placement - I tried the first battle in the Menck ? campaign - and you start so close to the russian units that the system seems very particular about where you can move them to ... also it doesnt seem to be 250m for all of them and sometime I can place in a certain spot but a couple of pixels left or right doesnt work ... seems a bit flaky to me ... anyhow - my point is why have this limitation at all - it seems very artificial and I cant really see why its there - for example in the above campaign I had bought a platoon of mgs and they ended up in open terrain being shot at first turn - then I had to spend the first three or four turns driving around under fire just to get some semblance of formation. Surely if I am a commander I would make my approach marc in some kind of tactical formation and this limitation is inexplicable to me - game wise or coding wise - can you not jkust remove it, show a set up zone and let me place my units from a picklist ?

ORIGINAL: DBeves
Sorry Erik dont have a save - but will try and get one when I have time ... dont really get the "space your units correctly " whats a proper spacing ... anyhow seems to me a bunch of guys should know how to walk round a halftrack...

Ok, I hear you but if you do run into it again (pun intended) please save the game and send it to me. I'd guess we have different play styles and I'm not running into the same issue as a result.

As for the unit placement - I tried the first battle in the Menck ? campaign - and you start so close to the russian units that the system seems very particular about where you can move them to ... also it doesnt seem to be 250m for all of them and sometime I can place in a certain spot but a couple of pixels left or right doesnt work ... seems a bit flaky to me ...

There are three things at work in placement. First the will of the scenario designer. I'm guessing Mobius can comment on why he chose the placement locations he did for that scenario bu I'm sure he had his reasons. Second, the 250m limit. Third, it checks against enemy units to make sure that you are not moving yourself further than 250m away from your original spot AND that you are not getting too close to an enemy unit. It's that last condition that can (especially if you are placing forward from your original spot) make for some unusual placement limits, but if you keep in mind they are limited by enemy unit proximity it can sometimes also offer a clue.

anyhow - my point is why have this limitation at all - it seems very artificial and I cant really see why its there - for example in the above campaign I had bought a platoon of mgs and they ended up in open terrain being shot at first turn - then I had to spend the first three or four turns driving around under fire just to get some semblance of formation. Surely if I am a commander I would make my approach marc in some kind of tactical formation and this limitation is inexplicable to me - game wise or coding wise - can you not jkust remove it, show a set up zone and let me place my units from a picklist ?

We try not to start you out under fire on turn 1, perhaps a placement needs to be adjusted there. In general though, the limitations on placement changes allow the scenario designer to give you a historical formation and locations without locking you into them completely. It also prevents easy "overloading" of one side or edge to allow a more concentrated formation from the beginnning of a scenario than would have been historical.

With that said, some type of setup zone option is on our wish list.

Regards,

- Erik

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

As for the unit placement - I tried the first battle in the Menck ? campaign - and you start so close to the russian units that the system seems very particular about where you can move them to ... also it doesnt seem to be 250m for all of them and sometime I can place in a certain spot but a couple of pixels left or right doesnt work ... seems a bit flaky to me ...

There are three things at work in placement. First the will of the scenario designer. I'm guessing Mobius can comment on why he chose the placement locations he did for that scenario bu I'm sure he had his reasons.

[/quote]On that scenario a thin line of Soviet infantry guard the perimeter of the Soviet defensive lines. The Germans recon force moves forward until they are taken under fire. Your scenario begins at this point. Additional Germans are pulled into the battle to try to dislodge the Soviets.

Because you start so close to the enemy you are nearly locked into your start position. You might be able to move a little side to side or back.

I've just posted in the Tech Support forum about the same thing regarding path finding.

A squad are stuck behind a half track and not going anywhere. Now, whilst the "general suggestion" of proper spacing might hold some water, all I did was select an unmount command for the troops....so I wasn't able to place them anywhere...

...and without "waypints", I can't even walk them round myself. So if I can't "walk" them round, and they can't get round themselves, then I have to make other moves and forfeit 40 seconds of combat! e.g. I have to move the squad to the left or right by 10/20 meters and play before moving them to where I want them to go, or I have to move the tank/vehicle before giving the squad a move order...all whilst under fire? Not ideal, really.

How many scenario have you played so far? In my experience, with Kharkov, this is quite rare.

I only experienced the pathfinding lockup between two units in the Boot Camp 6 mission so far, when the dismounted foot unit and a truck locked up in two or three instances and couldn't get free until I gave out specific movement orders to one or the other, or both.  Often, the foot unit would have a movement path showing an intent to move around the vehicle, but couldn't do it.
 
Also started playing the Mcensk Recon set battle scn. and experienced the inability to reposition units on set up.  I don't mind having that restricted in any way, but felt that it was odd that there were HMG units, mortar units, and AT units in the front line of this "recon force".  Not sure about how actual recon was conducted, but it seemed odd that support troops were on the front line and unable to be repositioned to a more covered area.
 
One thing that struck me as difficult when trying to fix the pathfinding lockups was the difficulty giving a move order to the individual unit when the HQ unit of that formation was in another mode.  I seem to recall having to wait for the current turn to end before giving an order that allowed movement, which then hindered the rest of the formation trying to engage the enemy some other way, which used up another turn's order, before I could get things to where I wanted them.
 
Now, some of this confusion is realistic so I don't mind having order issues slow things down... UNLESS the scenario imposes some strict time limit.  Some of the Boot Camp scns. did this, but some didn't and I haven't played enough other game scenarios to know if severe time limits are commonly imposed.  I assume part of the learning process is knowing which orders allow some units to fire and some to move.
 
(I recall having a problem when my HQ unit had to spot indirect fire, while another squad still had to cover a lot of ground and whose move plot *I think* was cancelled when the HQ changed orders; it seemed this separated squad was then pretty immobilized for the rest of the scn.  I believe the spotting order doesn't allow movement so I felt I couldn't have this detached squad rejoin the formation -- again my unfamiliarity with orders abilities might've been the bigger problem.)

Oh... and in that BC6 scenario, there were all of these trucks in the same "unit"; in order to move one, I had to give the "HQ truck" (?) a "rush" order which seemed to require that every truck move at least some amount.  Maybe it's there and I haven't picked up on it yet, but it would've been nice if I could've given that "rush" order, then selected "no move" or "stay" for every unit but the one truck I wanted to move, instead of all trucks having to have a movement plot.
 
(And of course maybe I could have done that but just didn't recognize it.)

Erik is it possible to make it where infantry and arty dismount from the SIDES instead of the rear? And perhaps put them in a grid square one grid away?