Matrix Games Forums

Greetings,
I will be using this thread to learn more about how to run the Japanese economy with Nemo's Empire Ablaze mod. I am novice and will be jumping into the deep end of the pool with only one swimming lesson on running the Japnese economy. [:D]

I am assisting John 3rd with his economy (scary thought!) in his PBEM game against Canoerebel (Dan) and he will be my opponent using the latest version of Empire's Ablaze as soon as I get the cluster done for this mod to use with the newest version of WitPTracker. Hopefully, I can get it done in the next few days (am working through the long weekend - on call sitting at home, but the phone could ring). Then, get my first turn done and sent to John.

This screenshot is of Naval Shipbuilding and I feel I'm having "mental block." I've copied and pasted Nemo's thesis on doing this from months ago (I have pages of info from the "Must Read" threads on production issues) and have read though the feedback Damian (n01487477) posted about it in John's AAR, but I still feel lost. This is just the second turn against the AI to see if I can get WitPTracker to work with this mod.

For those with a better understanding on this issue (which is probably most of those out there), what ships should I accelerate and/or halt?? Please explain it in small words. [:D]

Sorry,
my answer was a bit technical before.

Simply I'd stop CV Kii giving you 180 more points. this will allow the DD's to build and they will be available in 15 days ...

edit: sorry didn't see CVL there too, might want to stop more ...

I'm not sure with this mod, but most ppl stop the Shinano and Taiho for a while in the beginning, just because ppl think they are "white" elephants ...

And build them later.

OK, let me take a stab at this.
Ship...........Dur..........Delay..........Accel Delay.......Building Points/Agg.........Calc Pts
CV Juny - with a delay of 146, that is how many days until its built; the Calc pts of 50/50 means how many shipbuilding pints it cost and "if" i was to accelerate it, the cost is still 50.
CV Yamato - I get it in 8 days with it costing 180 pints per day, but to accelerate it, the cost goes to 760 per day (x3)
CV Mushashi - cost the same as her sister, but to accelerate it cost x4 per day (not x3)
The "Accel Delay" calculates how much soon I get it "if" it is accelerated from now to the end??
CV Kii - the further out from completion, the more expensive is the acceleration cost??
 
Now onto lesson #3.

Almost right ! ... stretch the Building points column, and it says Building points/ Aggregate points.

So Junyo is the first to build in the List 50pts = durability(or build points) / 50 = taken from pool
second Hiyo = 50 / aggregate added to first = 100 and so on.

Use the drop down on CalBr to see the effect on the right ... sorry maybe should have designed this better.

If you do so, accelerate Junyo and you will see on the right that Cal Pts will change to 150/150. (x3)
(And every aggregate will increase by 100)

So below ... I'm showing the effect of accelerating the Shinano (normal build would be 180 / accelerated 540)

Lastly, I think maybe your general confusion lies in my bad design, what is actually happening is on the Left of the screen until CalBR, after that it is a what if display based on CalBR.

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

For those with a better understanding on this issue (which is probably most of those out there), what ships should I accelerate and/or halt?? Please explain it in small words. [:D]

My advice, which will differ from others is as follows....
Use a sheet of paper and keep track of the building point changes as you do this so that you know exactly how many points you are spending.

1. Halt CV Shinano. Huge point sink, Comes too late, too few planes, worth too many vps when sunk.
2. Halt all submarines. You don't need them initially and they are your most effective weapons. At 26 to 33 build points
per turn for each, you can save a bunch of points. Later, you can go back and turn on subs one at a time as you need
them to replace losses or when you have other ships available.
3. Accelerate the Musashi. Others will disagree, but here is my reason. By continuing Yamato on normal and accelerating
the Musashi, you will get both units on the map early. M should arrive 30-45 days after Y. These are the two most
durable and intimidating ships that Japan has, and they are the BBs with the best chances of success against the U.S.
N. Carolina and S. Dakota class ships that also start appearing in early summer. They also have about the best AA
out of all the Japanese ships early in the war, which is important. After they are completed, you would then roll the points
into accelerated carrier construction as explained below.
4. Search through your DDs. There are a few with radar that are 200 days or less out. Find these and accelerate them as
you really need radar equipped ships in the fleet.
5. Carriers. Look at the CVLs and CVEs. Ask yourself if each one is worth having in the fleet. The VP cost when they are
sunk is very high, and some of them are quite fragile. I would complete the ones that hold a good number of aircraft,
but I would halt the ones that only carry less than 36 planes. They are nothing but a target. You can always finish them
later when you have extra points. I will then allow the other carriers with less than 200 days to continue building at
normal pace, later accelerating if I have extra points. I initially halt everything from Taiho on up for the first couple of
months to save points and get the other stuff out the door. Then I resume as points become available (you will get a big
block of 180 when Yamato completes and if you accelerated Musashi, you will get 540 more when she completes). I first
resume the carriers that are 900 days or less on normal. I then accelerate the ones that are farthest out so that they
catch up to the carriers in que ahead of them. If you do this right it isn't expensive since it only costs double and not
triple to accelerate a ship early during construction (during the period where you can't halt them). Later, in the game
you will devote more and more to getting these carriers done, eventually accerating groups of them. The object being
to get them to arrive as close together as possible so that you can build an effective fighting force. As a general rule,
you want to have as many of these carriers arriving by turn 800 as you can. By that time the Essex class will be starting
to appear in number, and your surviving starting carriers will need the reinforcements. The other thing that this method
does is that it ensures that you get an effedctive force and do not fritter away your spaced out builds one at a time. If
you complete one carrier and lose it in action before the next three get finished, you have diminished your forces that
will be needed mid-game. However, if all four carriers arrive together mid-game, then you have an effective force even
if you earlier had lost all of your carriers in action.

Merchant Points:
1. Halt every AK,AP,TK that you can. Build only as you need them.
2. Convert some AKs to ARs and a couple to MLEs. Spend all of your available merchant points to accelerate these ships,
especially the ARs.
3. Turn off any merchant shipyards in excess of what you need to save the HI. In fact, you might want to consider
converting some of your excess merchant shipyards to naval shipyards early to give you additional points needed to
accelerate naval construction and assure getting the carriers by mid game. Don't go wild with this, however. You will
need to make sure that you don't create a supply shortage created by the industry expansions and shipyard
conversions.

Hope this helps. I am certain that others will disagree, but this is the strategy that I have found to be successful in my
games.

I then accelerate the ones that are farthest out so that they
catch up to the carriers in que ahead of them. If you do this right it isn't expensive since it only costs double and not triple to accelerate a ship early during construction (during the period where you can't halt them).

Great Post, however I think you will find that these don't cost double, rather just their durability.

4. Search through your DDs. There are a few with radar that are 200 days or less out. Find these and accelerate them as you really need radar equipped ships in the fleet.

CL Kitakami & Oi are Radar fitted in the beginning, use them in your ACTF. Matsu and Tachibana class DD are radar equipped too, but they come out later in the war ... Yugumo & Akitsuki class DD's get an upgrade in mid 42. But some of this is mod specific ... Which means I should expand the ship Production to show class / class information.

Halt all submarines. You don't need them initially and they are your most effective weapons. At 26 to 33 build pointsper turn for each, you can save a bunch of points. Later, you can go back and turn on subs one at a time as you needthem to replace losses or when you have other ships available.

I agree with this too, except for the classes that have Float plane capability. J3's / A1's /B1's and others ... damn really should make this easier to find.

This is a very different Mod that requires a different approach than others. The Yamato and Musashi are not BB's but very heavily armored Shinano-class CV's. These are different than any other mod. Their flight deck can withstand anything from allied DB's and they are only vulnerable to torpedo bombers which will face the heaviest flak you will see in any WITP Mod. The Shinano and the Kii are the same. In Empires Ablaze, the Japanese ASW position is also much stronger at the start and is not such a critical need. I would say that in this mod the submarines give you less bang for the buck. Another difference from other mods is more naval shipyard points at start and the potential (I repeat potential) for a stronger economy to support building powerful ships.
This is a carrier-centric mod intended to keep the Japanese competitive deeper into the war. The key ships are the armored carriers and the CAAA's and CLAA's that support them. The allies get stronger faster as well and you are going to need these ships. The strong ASW might make the SS's a less cost effective choice. If you choose not to build the ships this mod is built on you will be outclassed very quickly

Where can I D/L this mod from? Can't seem to find it at any of the "standard" mod sites.
Thanks ahead of time.

Whipple

Here is the link to the thread on it.
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1768903
 
However, Nemo just finished the second modification to the newest version, but he hasn't uploaded it yet (as far as I know). It's a very easy mod to install and the newer version should be out soon. 

Thanks for the additional info, as well as da linky.

Whipple

Another link with scenario description is:

http://www.akdreemer.com/ahs/AHS_WITP.htm

The files can also be found on the RHS scenario page under scenario variations. I think AE will displace the usual WITP stock and mods, but Empires Ablaze and the RHS EOS series provide some interesting alternate history scenarios that will still have an interesting appeal. I suspect that Nemo and El Cid will do AE based versions of these, but that will take a while. As ny59giants said, there will probably be a new version posted within a few days. New RHS version, too.

I have the newst version, if you cannot wait for it.

ny59giants,
I would like to get the new files so I can check them over and fix them up over the holiday. I rename the Samurai and Nemo (Shogun in mine) classes with Japanese names just to help with the suspension of disbelief and I have experimented with modding a few things to my own taste (although much of what goes on due to hard code remains a mystery). I was fixing some obvious errata not expecting a new version so soon. I will PM you with my email address.
Thanks!

Couple of points:
 
1. BBs are worthless in 44 so I have them all converted to moderately armoured CVs( kinda Yamato-lites ) in January 44 IF you, the player, want. YOu can always jut turn that upgrade off.
 
2. CVAs are worth their weight in gold and far more survivable than most other CVs.
 
3. CAAAs and CLAAs ( classified as CLs and DDs due to the vagaries of the game code) are really required to keep your shipping safe.
 
4. Airplanes will spot and kill far more enemy ships than subs ever will.
 
 
So I would look at the two BCs due in 1945 and cut them for sure and then next I'd look at cutting the SS and then lastly cutting old-style surface warfare CAs and CLs in the pipeline.

That should buy you enough breeding space to get things on track.
 
 
5. This is a really different mod. Japan starts the game with more radars then in stock and the CLAAs etc being built come in with radars.
 
6/ i designed the new ships with some care. i think they are definitely worth building.
 
Chuckwalla,
I'd be interested in what thee obvious errata were. If you've found errors i'd like to fix them.

Nemo,
I knew I should have written these down somewhere. These appear to still be present but are easy fixes.

Fuso Class BB's - 40 mm Bofors in class 004 file, but Fuso and Yamashiro start with 25mm type 96's. I'm not sure which you intended.

Chuyo (Nitta Maru) has class pointer to 557 which is the 1943 version Taiyo resulting in similar mismatch of AA guns (Bofors vs Type 96). Pointer probably should be to class 44 the 1941 Taiyo.

ROC 38th New Div is weird. Starts with 2lb'er AT guns and the TOE field is 2087 for cavalry instead of 2089 for infantry. I just convert it to a standard ROC infantry division by correcting these.

Also there was the issue of missing air art for late war Japanese planes but I understand you intend to address that with an updated art file in the future.

I promise to write down and report anything I see in the future, especially since your mod seems to be developing a following. The approach to the Japanese economy is especially interesting. I prefer a non-blitzkrieg first turn and your mod adapts itself equally well to that kind of start. The Japanese are strong enough that they don't really need it.

chuckwalla,

1. Fuso and other BBs. The most frustrating thing with this editor is that sometimes when you make a change to a ship class it doesn't carry through to the ships IN that class. Very frustrating. Anyways, I went in and fixed it by hand for all the BBs. It seems that I overlooked the BB in my previous by-hand runthrough.

2. Chuyo - Good catch. Fixed.

3. 2lbers = A bit of local flavour . They will upgrade to the right guns as time goes by.  TOE class should have been 2089. Really good catch. FWIW when you see gun being substituted by very similar guns which can do the same job ( 37mm US ATGs replaced by 2lber British ATGs) then it probably is intentional.

4. Aye, updated art file. Unfortunately I have no art talent to do this myself but I would expect to release an updated art file within a couple of months.


5. Aye, personally I prefer to hit hard and follow through BUT pretty much the main idea behind my mod ( apart from my concentration on logistics --- and not even on the really obvious stuff but just on how things would play out using current game mechanics in 43 and 44 if we tweaked some things which most people ignore ) is that you can do whatever the hell you want within certain (broad ) limits ;-).

Want to run an IJN BB fleet through 1945? Fine.
Want to convert those BBs to mini-CVAs in 44? Fine.
Think Japan should expand its industry massively and gear up to actually fight and win an attritional campaign? Fine.
Want to leave Russia alone? Fine.
Want to invade Russia on 7th December? Fine.
Want to negotiate not to bring the US into the war at all on 7th December 41? Fine.
Think Japan should have had a strategic bomber fleet? Fine.
Think they shold hae concentrated tactically? Fine.
Want all the funky new AAA ships? Fine.
Want to stick to only the historical ones? Fine.


So long as people enjoy it, realise there's no ONE RIGHT WAY to play the mod and actually have a bit of fun then I'm happy. Like I said, I never made this to be played by loads of people but if people do enjoy it then I'm happy to do my best to support it and bugfix anything that's reported to me.


Oh and please ANYONE feel free to point out bugs, possible bugs or even just question design decisions. Once I see a bug mentioned I check it and fix it / or explain why it isn't a bug so most days you can know the bug will be fixed within 24 hours. I do think though that at present we are down to pretty low level bugs which effect most individual units. Now that people do seem to be playing it I think it is incumbent upon me to fix things which could detract from anyone's enjoyment though.


P.s. Those changes have been made and integrated and V1.3 has been sent off for uploading etc. I'll post a full list of the changes between V1.2 and 1.3 later today.

Nemo,

One issue I forgot to mention last night is that the RTAF units equipped with the Hawks and B-10's at start appear not to work properly until upgraded to Japanese planes. El Cid ran into a similar problem with RHS. The effects are minor, the planes won't properly engage in combat until upgraded and automatic replacements appear on the wrong side (as goodboyladdie and 1eyedjacks observed in their game). This is due to aircraft slots 217-219 being allied in hard code.

I thought about changing this in the database, but I found I preferred my in-game workaround. That is to immediately upgrade the RTAF planes. The bombers get their scheduled updates (you have lots of surplus Marys) and the fighters get updated to Nate's instead of the scheduled Oscar's. I then manually reset the next update back to Oscars (they default to the Ki-115). The reason I prefer this fix is that the RTAF will have to repair these planes before they enter the fray. You have big surpluses of Nates and Marys at the start anyway. These fixes assume, of course, that people are playing with PDU's on. I think that is necessary for this mod anyway.

Every problem contains an opportunity, so I suggest that you might use the 217-219 slots to add some interesting new Allied aircraft.

To reiterate, this is not a problem for ongoing games. The RTAF is useless until upgraded but works as intended once the planes are upgraded. The Allied player gets some useless replacements if that is being handled automatically, but that stops once the air units are upgraded by the Japanese player, as well.

*Chuckle* Ah you've looked into this in detail and discovered one of my sneaky little tricks. It works precisely as intended now since I wanted players to upgrade the RTAF out of frustration at the fact that "they are useless"
 
Yes, the RTAF doesn't work properly until upgraded to IJA planes due to hard-coding issues. I like this though as I think it nicely simulates the fact that until the RTAF was properly integrated into the Japanese air force it was relatively ineffectual. I wasn't mentioning it though as I kind of liked the idea of people going "These bloody things are useless, I'm gonna change them to Ki-32s/Ki-27s, train them up and then send them back out" --- which is what I would have done in real life if I'd had to integrate the RTAF.
 
 
chuckwalla,
Well I have ONE Japanese slot available for a new and interesting Japanese airplane and I also have 1 USAF slot currently available for new planes. I'd be happy to adopt your idea and give the Allies 4 free slots for new planes but the last time I made a call for suggestions for Allied planes no-one gave me any.
 
If someone starts a thread suggesting planes to include ( late-44/5 ones would be ideal ) and they can come up with 4 Allied planes which would be interesting then I will definitely add them. Of note I have the B-19, F7 and F8 ( Tiger and Bearcats ) and the P-80 already.
 
Ooh, evil idea... Give the Japs the Kika ( ki-262 ) and give the Soviets captured Me-262s and you'd set up some very interesting combats indeed. Give the Brits the Meteor and then maybe add the successor to the B-29 ??? That would take care of 3 of the slots. Any other ideas?
 
I'm really open to ideas. I may not agree with you but I'll always listen and, hell, if it sounds like it'll be fun and keep things interesting for people then I'll probably make the change . I think 1.3 is solid but why the hell not give people more options in the end-game? No reason that I can see.

Now that more people are playing this mod I think you will get plenty of suggestions. I have noticed that you have built in lots of traps and snares for the incautious and unwary, but I will stop commenting on them. You have a reputation in this forum as an "out of the box" thinker and this mod certainly confirms that.

Although this is probably moot at this point, before I realized that you were going to provide ongoing support for this mod I came up with the following "good enough for government work" fixes for the missing Japanese air art. It won't satisfy purists but it is good enough for me and it does give each plane unique art on the combat screens.

1. Ki-93 "Steve" = bitmap 6
2. G7 "Marie" = bitmap 71
3. G8 "Rita" = bitmap 34

With v1.3 I will probably just wait for the updated art file.

I agree that v1.3 looks solid and ready for serious play and recommend it to anyone who wants to try a very different approach to the WITP game engine.

Back to using this thread for my questions about the economy.
 
If a base has multiple industries with the repairs enabled and it goes over the magic 10k level, is there a priority to which industry gets repaired first or is just a series of die roll until one passes and then the rest cannot as the supply level drops below 10k again??