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Chaps im very much new to this game, I have dabbled in making my own scenarios before and played a number of the in game scenarios. But I would like to take a leap and actually have a go at building a very large scenarios based on strategic offensive action against Iran. I would be real interested in running a sim of an Israeli attack, and im wondering if this would be possible using this simulator? Considering the scale of the action involved. I do this not so much for the game play, as for the results and pure interest in how this sim will perform. Some of you might have comments on this?

The first thing im looking at doing is building Iran, its command and control, air defenses, weapons and nuclear programs, facilities and infrastructure. Try and integrate the systems to some degree, line of communications etc…

Im really not sure if this can be done or to what extent? But I will use this thread to fallow this little project and ask you guys when I get stuck.

I have spent some time collecting background info but still have holes in a lot of details. If anyone out there has good data sources let me know.

thanks
KCB

Hi KCB, check out my scenario "Katyusha Hunt", part of the "2nd Lebanese War" battleset built by the PlayersDB (just click on link below). This is a scen around and Israeli air attack on 7 nuclear and rocket plants in Iran.
 
The air force OOB was taken largely from Scramble.com, taking into account assumed difference in plane availability. I researched what SAMs Iran might have had and the location of the plants and airbases but I do not profess to have an accurate air defence picture of Iran!
 
I also built all the 'neutral' countries in between Israel and Iran (Jrdan, Turkey, Saudi, and USA occupied Iraq) and made assumption that they would oppose Israeli strike. I've played it often and its very tough, very critical on fuel (needs tankers into potentially hostile territories) and very much fun.
 
I would be great to see another interpretation of such an attack!
 
Freek

ORIGINAL: KCB

But I would like to take a leap and actually have a go at building a very large scenarios based on strategic offensive action against Iran.

Always happy to hear of another player making scenarios. In addition to Freek Scheper's examples, there is the largest scenario ever made for Harpoon -- Axis of Evil II. It is another PlayersDB scenario that can be found for:

Harpoon ANW users:
Complete Harpoon ANW Library

Harpoon3.6.3 users:
Complete Harpoon 3.6.3 Library

Tim Eastburn came up with a list of thousands of potential Iranin targets. You can go ahead and use it for planning your own scenario, if you like. We broke that scenario down to a number of different sides such as:

IADS command
IAF command [Air Force]
Naval command
Nuclear forces
Civilian targets
Submarine command

If you do something like this, it is totally possible to try and simulate command and communication connections between different regions/commands. (That way, you can knock out communication centres and keep Iranian forces from coordinating) But you should be forewarned. This scenario is so large that it has a very hard time running on even super-fast computers with 3gHz processors and 4mB of RAM.

IMO, ANW runs about 1/3th as fast as H3 did, but I have a very old computer. If you want folks to try your scenario in MP, it might be best to keep size in mind. Axis of Evil II is 5.5mB in size. Folks are reporting LAN crashes with scens that are much smaller (1.5mB). If you just run in in SP, larger scens seem possible.

Yes you can. If you want information on Iran IADS, get Google Earth, and get this .kmz file which is an overview of world SAM systems.
It's from an excellent open source intelligence site, called IMINT & Analysis which you should check out as part of your research on this or other scenarios.

The links section at harpgamer.com has pointers to a variety of military information resources, and use google widely and wisely.

Most important : have fun

Cheers !!

Thanks guys, having been away from the game for a year or so it looks like I have some catching up to do. I have updated to 3.9 and loaded the latest PlayerDB but cannot load any scenarios. So I will have to iron out the wrinkles first I guess.

What scenarios do you not seem able to load?
 
Complete Harpoon ANW Library

should give you everything that we currently have available for the PlayersDB.  If you are experiencing a problem, please elaborate.
 

updated to 3.9.3 and im back in the game, however, still dont see Axis of Evil II listed in scenario editor? im interested in taking a look at that. up dated the PlayersDB 1st July 08

AxisEvil.scn should be found under the Stand-Alone Battleset.
 
If you use the File Open command, you should find the scenario in the Scenarios sub-folder which is located within the PlayersDB folder.
 

[font="times new roman"]Thanks iv got the folders sorted.  Well, iv had a look over the Axis of Evil scenario in the scenario editor…holy crap!  What a job!  It seems pointless building from scratch, so what is the protocol for adjusting some ones scenario?  [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Im not sure why it the scenario was set up the way it is, with the command element in south Africa?  Was this for game play sake?  Also its clear for a more realistic rendition the Iranian Air defence will have to be stripped and rebuilt.  I do intend to implement the 4x Battery’s of S-300 (in the form of SA-10b) they are suspected of buying from Belarus.  I will spend a little time looking over the scenario.  [/font]

The easiest thing is probably to just delete the unnecessary sides. The sides in the scenario are:

Iranian ground units, ships, subs, and bastion patrol units.

Coalition

Iranian IADS (Integrated Air Defence System)

Iranian Nuclear forces

Iranian Intelligence

Biological contacts, false contacts, and shipwrecks.

Contact (single SSK) sitting on the bottom hoping to be overlooked as biological contacts.

Commercial traffic and other neutrals.

Iran aircraft command

If all you want are the targets, just delete all the sides except the Iranian side with the targets. Most of them are pretty fanciful in the first place. [;)]

You should know that this scenario may pose some problems for you. It was originally built in Harpoon v3.6.2 and runs well in that version. However, when we tried to re-build it for compatibility with ANW, all sorts of problems arose.

The Re-build All command was able to crash the thing outright. AGSI has said that they were able to re-build it successfully, but I haven't seen the end product, yet, so I can neither confirm nor deny their claim.

I think it was due to sheer size of the scenario. I have tried to delete some sides before hitting the Re-build All function. Once, it caused the scenario to balloon from 3mB to over 20mB! So, while you are most welcome to build upon our work, you should be aware that some peculiarities may arise. You may very well be better off to start from scratch with our scenario as a blueprint. Just copy the locations and names, perhaps. There are over 1200, IIRC.

P.s. The command element was placed in S. Africa because it caused a crash if it was deleted or destroyed. So, we put it in a place where it wouldn't be accidentally attacked. [;)]

IIRC, there are 3-4 facilities in an awkward place because deletion of any one of them seemed to throw the ScenEditor into conniptions. [:(]

Been away for a while, back to have a look to see if I can have another crack at an Iran scenario again, feels like im starting from scratch on this one. I have not touched H3ANW for a year or so, real world stuff, good to see things happening here again, updates and all, but feeling a little lost once more!

Few newby type questions to start rolling:

1- Is the old Harpoon II Scenario editor still of any value? Or will it just add to the confusion at this stage of the game development (3.10 beta)

2- Which is the best Data base to simulate an Israeli unilateral Campaign against Iran?

3- Has anyone modeled ballistic missiles like the Arrow or Jericho III? Or the Shahab-3, Sejil? or the Israeli cruse missile ‘Popeye Turbo’ or any of the Israeli stand off AGMs. And on a separate note, the JDAM ER (Extended Range).

4- Does anyone know if Iran has upgraded any of its Soviet area EAW radars systems with the new VHF anti stealth capabilities yet? There are a number of groups now selling these upgrades on the market, from Russia and Ukraine. Note these are not passive radar.

5- Base logistics, can base of ground facilities resupply? Or are they strictly confined to their god (scenario editor) given game start loads?

ORIGINAL: KCB

1- Is the old Harpoon II Scenario editor still of any value? Or will it just add to the confusion at this stage of the game development (3.10 beta)

I and others still use the H2/H3.6.2 version of the scenario editor to build our scenarios. This is because of the inherent stability of the H2/H3 vs. the ANW ScenEditor. When you build a scenario with H2/H3, you don't have to worry about database matching and compatibility problems. For example, if you build a scenario using ANW SE v3.10, it cannot be opened in H2, H3, or any version prior to 3.10. That causes all kinds of problems (especially when they introduce bugs). If you built that same scen in H2 SE, it will open for you in ANW or any other version. That is primarily why we have chosen to build our scenarios initially with H2/H3 and then re-build them for compatibility with ANW. The ANW SE does offer some functions simply not available in H2/H3 SE, but the rock-solid stability of H2/H3 compels us to use them. You may find that the SE in ANW meets your needs and wish to create scenarios with it. I recommend against doing so.

If you still have a functional version of H2/H3, you can get the PlayersDB version that works for it: Complete Harpoon 3.6.3 Library

ORIGINAL: KCB

2- Which is the best Data base to simulate an Israeli unilateral Campaign against Iran?

Select a database that you are comfortable with using and meets your needs. I think that the PlayersDB is the most comprehensive available and should include most of the units you seek in such an encounter. Also, the weapons in the PlayersDB will fire, they will hit, and, if they hit, they will do damage. Not every database can make this claim.

ORIGINAL: KCB

3- Has anyone modeled ballistic missiles like the Arrow or Jericho III? Or the Shahab-3, Sejil? or the Israeli cruse missile ‘Popeye Turbo’ or any of the Israeli stand off AGMs. And on a separate note, the JDAM ER (Extended Range).

Most of these weapons have not yet been added PlayersDB, yet. If you need them, they can be added without too many problems. You just need to work with us to determine the specifications and operational characteristics.

ORIGINAL: KCB

4- Does anyone know if Iran has upgraded any of its Soviet area EAW radars systems with the new VHF anti stealth capabilities yet? There are a number of groups now selling these upgrades on the market, from Russia and Ukraine. Note these are not passive radar.

These upgrades have not been added to the PlayersDB, yet. Again, if you need them, work with us and we will add them according to your specifications.

ORIGINAL: KCB

5- Base logistics, can base of ground facilities resupply? Or are they strictly confined to their god (scenario editor) given game start loads?

Base logistics (i.e. simulated re-supply by truck/train) is not possible. However, you can take the arduous route and land planes at a base, unload their weapons, then return to their home base to re-arm. That's about the best you can do at this time.

When you talk about stability, do you find that the later version tends to CTD and data is lost or is it just a little annoying? I have started in Scenario Editor 3.10.29.

Again starting with infrastructure and target sets within Iran. I wanted to try best I could within this sim to replicate the various networks relevant. Air defense, communications and control. Within any scenario regarding Iran, the BLUFOR, for our purposes western nations, and OPFOR Iran, faces a set number of obstacles; air superiority, SEAD, and counter actions by Iran including ballistic missile threat, asymmetric naval threat in the Gulf and Straits, asymmetric paramilitary threats to BLUFOR interests. These are the systems and networks I would like to try implement. Using sides and postures looks like the way to go to create complex networks consisting of mutually overlapping parts. The problem is the vast number of sides this entails and the effect this will have on performance. I believe I read somewhere more sides slows things down.

From the top, communications seems key. So I have started by creating communication hubs for each major population center in Iran, each its own side. Replicating the back bone of Iran’s comms, it’s national microwave radio relay network and a separate military radio network for C2. Each pop center consists of a comms center that is postured friendly to other surrounding pop center. Based around these hubs are the infrastructure and facility types postured friendly to their local hubs. For example; air defense units and HQ are a side friendly to regional air defense C4 nodes and its EWR (its own side) postured friendly to the military radio network (its own side) and to their local comms hub (its own side). So military facilities have both civil and military comms options, not forgetting SAT comms. Other facilities postured only to local comms hub.

End result, it does not work. Central C3I node in Tehran does not get the info from southern radars. So multiple links of sides postured as friend to friend to friend to friend is not the way to go I find. Will have to make a simpler system.

These upgrades have not been added to the PlayersDB, yet. Again, if you need them, work with us and we will add them according to your specifications.

So if i gather and pass on the stats you can add them to the DB?

ORIGINAL: KCB

When you talk about stability, do you find that the later version tends to CTD and data is lost or is it just a little annoying? I have started in Scenario Editor 3.10.29.

No, the stability problems I was referring to are not always in regards to CTD and simple annoyances like that. Saving often and with different file names is usually a simple solution to CTD.

The types of problems I am talking about are things like this:

• Map windows disappear
  
  Map windows do not appear when file loaded. Probable cause is repeated use of Batch Re-build by Battleset function.

Here is what I think happened in this instance:

The set of 6 scenarios were originally built in H3. When the ANW SE is used to repeatedly re-build them for every updated release of the PlayersDB and game patches (i.e. 3.8.0, 3.9.0, etc), somehow this corrupted them and the maps disappeared and the game could not be re-opened. If I didn't have a backup of the original scenarios in H3 format, these scenarios (and the hundreds of hours spent creating them) would have been lost to the community forever. These kinds of bugs appear all the time in the ANW Scenario Editors. That's why I only use H3 to create stuff. The various ANW SE are simply too unstable and unreliable. There are other bug instances, but this is one of the most major examples.

Your ideas for the communications network certainly sounds possible. However, you are right that it takes quite a bit of memory to handle. Some people think it takes a lot and others (like me) do not think it takes quite so much. The thing that most folks agree upon is that it does take more to handle more sides.

You seem to be testing out the side and posture setup. That's a good idea. You don't want to get way into a scenario with few hundred units only to find that you have it set up in a way you don't like. Be absolutely certain that you can simulate what you want to see with small scenarios before you build bigger ones.

Freek Schepers is a master of the side/posture settings. He'll have scenarios with 14+ sides all with different postures. Just be aware that one erroneous setting (i.e. a Neutral setting when it should be Hostile/Friendly) is often enough to really bugger things up and you will spend aeons looking for it! [:)]

I believe that it is a good idea to write down your side/posture layout on paper before enacting it with the scenario editor. It can help you avoid some problems.

ORIGINAL: KCB

These upgrades have not been added to the PlayersDB, yet. Again, if you need them, work with us and we will add them according to your specifications.

So if i gather and pass on the stats you can add them to the DB?

That's not quite it. Gather all your data and then come online and chat with me. I'll ask you questions about your data and when you answer them, we can add the stuff into the PlayersDB very quickly. It's a pretty simple process. You don't need the Library of Congress. Just be ready for a few simple questions. [:)]

Got the comms network worked out. It was the equipment been used that had created the problem. Used C3 Comms sorted. These communication nodes represent Iran’s network of Micro wave radio relay stations throughout the country (MWR). Each node, represents a major town city, is its own side. This creates a robust comms network that can be disrupted if you target several inter linked MWR. However, each node is friendly to a number of others in its proximity. When a link is broken (a node destroyed) then other nodes compensate and automatically connect to the next friendly node in proximity, until there are no more nodes in relation to one another. Nodes have between 3 to 5 friendly nodes. In this way you can isolate parts of the country and bring down the network with a focused effort. Attached to the network are all the major facilities command and control. Each in turn its own side, using the network to communicate. Sub or regional commands like wise. Each regional command then has closer or more robust communications with its attached bases, air defenses, EWR etc (data link same side as the regional HQ). this method I hope to use to model Army, IRGC, Air force, Navy, AD network, SSM network and possibly others like Qods etc. the issue I have to be careful of is the number of sides been produced here. There are 34 MWR nodes to start with. Other targets like government, infrastructure and industrial can be added in clusters of same side elements friendly to local MWR nodes. These systems would have little bearing on the sim or game play directly unlike the AI sensors and reacting units or war fighting elements given spersific missions AD, SSM, NAVAL. looking at possibly having a back up radio network for some military networks.

At the moment in knee deep in the research, it seems endless, but im real keen on making this as accurate as possible and I have limited internet access so it’s a drawn out process.

One thing that will have to be addressed to make this worth the effort is the addition of new elements to the data base. The relevant equipment there is, seems to be spread over a number of data bases, no one has all the elements the scenario needs.
more later...

Nice to hear that you are making progress with your scenario design.

Don't know if you decided on which version of the scenario editor to use for your project yet, but another problem with using the ANW scenario editor(s) is related to this noted issue:
[blockquote]Ammo dumps emptied

Ammo dumps in all ODb scenarios have been emptied of weapons for aircraft.
[/blockquote]There was a bug in the original ANW SE when it was released in v3.7.0.  It emptied all the weapons located in an ammo dump.  Just imagine if you built a scenario as big as you are suggesting, loaded up thousands of ammo dump entries, then had the SE erase them all (without you finding out).  This bug was corrected two years later in the 3.9.0 patch, but the damage had already been done.  Those scenarios were corrupted beyond repair.

I only have a copy of ANW. Is it possible to download the earlier version of the editor and use it with ANW? And if not are you saying I cannot use ammo dumps with an scenario editor from 3.7.0 through to 3.10.29?

I thought you had either H2 or H3.  However, if you only have ANW, then that's all you have.  [:)]

A great many new bugs come with any new patch release.  If you are going to build your scen, I suggest that you use the 3.9.4 version that has been publicly released.  At least most of the problems with that version are known.  Use of the Beta 3.10 is like playing Russian roulette.  If 3.10 releases with a catastrophic bug (as every patch has), then there may be no way to recover your work from it.  However, if you write it with 3.9.4, it may be possible to salvage your work if 3.10 turns out to be a crash-infested mess.

The most stable is H2 or H3.6.3.
The next most stable is ANW 3.9.4
The least stable is the Beta/experimental 3.10

The problem of the ammo dumps being emptied was introduced in 3.7.0 and it was solved 2 years later with the 3.9.0 patch.  At this time, it does not seem to have made a re-appearance.  I mentioned the bug simply to show you how patch releases often make the game unplayable and how long it took to fix that disastrous bug. 

It would be a shame if you started writing your scen in 3.10, discovered a bug when the patch was officially released, then had to wait 2 years before you could finish it as you waited for AGSI to fix the bug they introduced in the first place.  [:)]