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Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:25 pm
by rominet
I just took Palembang. I never see it in such a state.
I didn't capture the others big oil centers yet(Borneo, Java).
So, even if i capture them intact, do i have a chance to continue the war
after 42?
It is in CHS 155.
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:15 pm
by rubisco
One thing to bear in mind is that in CHS, resources are more scarce than oil.
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:20 pm
by VSWG
This is a CHS game, right? If so, the damaged resource centers will kill you.
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:44 pm
by rominet
In this game, you can have the best strategy, if you don't have luck at Palembang, Balikpapan and Brunei, the war is over.[:@]
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:45 pm
by VSWG
Some numbers:
ORIGINAL: ctangus
I've noticed the same thing as aztez & Chez in my Japanese game. I coincidentally just finished some number crunching on it. (Yea - I admit - I'm a dork. [:D]) My figures might be slightly off if my data entry was poor, but I'm sure these numbers are close.
In CHS Japan starts with 12790 HI. If they capture the historical perimeter intact HI is 13068. In stock those numbers are 12120 & 13530.
If Japan changes
nothing in its industry and just lets the R&D factories repair, it will require 12824 HI. Very close to those above figures - so far so good.
However in CHS, based on a completely
intact historical perimeter (who's that lucky? not me), one will at most get 16970 resources. Factoring in manpower needs that's enough to support 13673 HI. Factoring in 4% "shrinkage" (see this thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1349415) those resources can at most support 12824 HI. Similar figures for stock are 15579 and 14634.
There's also a lot of tempting resource targets outside the historical perimeter in stock. There's relatively few in CHS. (Well, maybe the US West Coast... [:'(])
Oil is a completely different picture. An intact SRA in CHS will provide 17500 oil - theoretically that can support 17500 HI but more practically 16800. Stock figures are 16500 and 15840.
Finally - in CHS one starts with an 82 day reserve of resources and a 280 day reserve of oil. I thought oil reserves were about 6 months IRL.
Now I don't consider it game-breaking - viewed abstractly the Japanese should be operating on a shoestring and in most, if maybe not all, games struggling to keep their economy going. I perversely enjoy the challenge. But like Chez said, it should be the other way around and oil should be the limiting factor.
I worked out some alternate figures - I'll post them when I don't have a couple turns in the inbox...
tm.asp?m=1553919
Lets see...
Number of resource points produced within the Japanese perimeter if everything is captured undamaged: 13674
You have 561 damaged resource centers, so you're missing 726 resource points.
13674-726 = 12948 resource points if you capture the remaining resource centers intact. 12430 with 4 % "shrinkage".
You need 12824 resource points if you didn't expand your industry. So right now you have a deficit of approx. 400 resource points. You must shut down at least 400 HI. Not that bad, you can survive, but most of your supplies will be needed to repair the resource centers - or you simply accept the loss of 400 HI and shut down some plane/ship/armament production too. Oh, and you
really should capture the remaining resource centers intact.
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:46 pm
by anarchyintheuk
Not to be too pessimistic but I think you're forked no matter the mod.
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:03 pm
by VSWG
Oil:
Instead of 17500 oil points, you can now hope for only 10300 oil points produced within your perimeter. You need at least 12824. You have a deficit of 2524. And that's the best case scenario.
Yep, you're screwed.
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:10 pm
by rominet
Yes, i am afraid of that.
So, in the best case, i am already short of ressources AND oil!!
Thanks for information VSWG!!
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:13 pm
by VSWG
PBEM or AI game? If it's a PBEM ask for a redo. I doubt your opponent wants to win the game like that. If it's against the AI - well, where's your problem? [;)]
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:25 pm
by rominet
I am playing against Emek who is a very good player.
He places here 2 base force (113 RAF BF and 4th NEIAF BF); so not so big;
i already took Palembang intact against 5 base force so it is a question of luck.
Yes, he proposes me to replay the turn. I have to think about it.
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:59 pm
by niceguy2005
ORIGINAL: rominet
I just took Palembang. I never see it in such a state.
I didn't capture the others big oil centers yet(Borneo, Java).
So, even if i capture them intact, do i have a chance to continue the war
after 42?
It is in CHS 155.
I'm not as familiar with CHS, though I have played it. Results like this are most common when there is a large group of engineers defending the base and they get forced to retreat, thus they damage the resource and oil centers.
Places like Palmbang, Balikpapan, etc must be captured with care. They need to be bombed and bombarded so that engineers and in particular engineering vehicles are damaged. This greatly increases ones chance of taking resource centers intact.
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:00 pm
by rubisco
Out of interest, is the amount of damage done to oil and resource centres completely random or are there other factors that come into play?
IIRC, damage is determined only when the base is captured and there is some influence in the number of engineer squads that retreat from the hex. Is this correct? Are there any other factors?
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:04 pm
by rubisco
ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
I'm not as familiar with CHS, though I have played it. Results like this are most common when there is a large group of engineers defending the base and they get forced to retreat, thus they damage the resource and oil centers.
Places like Palmbang, Balikpapan, etc must be captured with care. They need to be bombed and bombarded so that engineers and in particular engineering vehicles are damaged. This greatly increases ones chance of taking resource centers intact.
My experience is that an attack by an overwhelming force tends to give relatively undamaged oil and resources centres. Could this be because enemy engineer squads are disabled during combat?
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:15 pm
by rominet
You should have a look at the end of this post
tm.asp?m=1760822&mpage=2&key=
Uemaga gave us the rule.
The engineers must not be damaged but completely destroyed.
It took Palembang in only one ground attack (30/1) and the base was completely destroyed
for many days by my planes.
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:32 pm
by niceguy2005
I have not taken the DEI in CHS. I have done it several times in stock. The mechanics of damaging a base should be the same as it's in the code not the database. What I can tell you is this.
1. If you don't perform enough bombardment (air and/or naval) you will get a lot of damaged resources
2. If you don't overwhelmingly take the base you will get a lot of damaged resources
3. There is a random factor involved.
I don't believe that engineers must be destroyed outright...unless its a bug. A disabled engineering squad is...well disabled. It is non-functional and doesn't contribute until repaired.
Edited post to fix a problem with statement 1.
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:38 pm
by rominet
ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
1. If you don't perform enough aerial bombardment you will get a lot of damaged resources
2. If you don't overwhelmingly take the base you will get a lot of damaged resources
3. There is a random factor involved.
I don't believe that engineers must be destroyed outright...unless its a bug. A disabled engineering squad is...well disabled. It is non-functional and doesn't contribute until repaired.
I think i was ok for the first 2 points, but for the third, God is probably an allied player[;)]
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:43 pm
by VSWG
I'm pretty sure that Uamaga is just presenting some ideas how the routine
could work in
his opinion.
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:52 pm
by niceguy2005
ORIGINAL: rominet
ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
1. If you don't perform enough aerial bombardment you will get a lot of damaged resources
2. If you don't overwhelmingly take the base you will get a lot of damaged resources
3. There is a random factor involved.
I don't believe that engineers must be destroyed outright...unless its a bug. A disabled engineering squad is...well disabled. It is non-functional and doesn't contribute until repaired.
I think i was ok for the first 2 points, but for the third, God is probably an allied player[;)]
Naturally. He's the #1 Allied fanboy. [:'(]
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:09 pm
by Uamaga
ORIGINAL: VSWG
I'm pretty sure that Uamaga is just presenting some ideas how the routine
could work in
his opinion.
I can asure you that I tried to describe as detailed as I could how the
actual demolition routine is working (in current 1.8.6 version at least). Wouldn't make much sense to waste my (and possible readers) time otherwise, would it? [:)]
Surely I have no access to source code and trying to decipher binary code is rather error prone adventure so no guarantees can be given. Still I did not see so far any results which would be in contradiction with that description. [:'(]
RE: Palembang KO
Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:14 pm
by VSWG
trying to decipher binary code is rather error prone adventure so no guarantees can be given.
Just to perfectly clear: you're saying that you
DID "decipher binary code", right?