Historical OOBs
Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:47 pm
I wanted to get across my point of how underpowered the economies are in game right now (at least in my view). Below are some very rough OOB’s I cropped together from several different sources online and some books I have at home (WWII A Statistical Survey, and War Without Garlands). These are thrown together very quickly and are not even close to exhaustive OOB’s, so I’m sure there are plenty of glaring errors.
I myself found several sources that contradicted the numbers I have here, but the general point I wanted to make was the same in all cases. The main difference in the sources seems to stem from how they chose to group formations and how large of a geographical area they used to pull data from.
Poland Campaign
German Army
German army group north:
Reserve troops:
1 pz div
3 inf divs
4th army:
1 pz div
2 mot divs
6 inf divs
3rd army:
1 pz div
1 mot div
7 inf divs
German army group south:
Reserve troops:
1 mountain div
5 inf divs
8th army:
1 mot div
4 inf divs
10th army:
2 pz divs
2 mot divs
9 inf divs
14th army:
2 pz divs
1 mot div
2 mountain divs
7 inf divs
Slovakian army
3 inf divs
Polish OOB:
Karpaty Army:
1 mountain div
Krakow Army:
1 mountain div
1 Cav div
5 inf divs
Lublin Army:
1 mot div
Lodz Army:
1 cav div
4 inf divs
Modlin Army:
1 cav div
2 inf divs
Pomorze Army:
1 cav div
5 inf divs
Poznan Army:
1 cav div
4 inf divs
Prusy Army:
1 cav div
8 inf divs
Warsaw Army:
11 inf divs
Wyszków Operational Group:
3 inf divs
Narew Independent Operational Group:
1 cav div
2 inf divs
Total forces for Polish campaign:
German:
7 pz divs
7 mot divs
3 mountain divs
44 inf divs (3 Slovak)
Polish:
1 mot div
2 mountain divs
7 cav divs
44 inf divs
Barbarossa OOB
German:
Army Group North:
3 pz divs
2 mot divs
1pzGr div (Hoepner)
21 inf divs
Army Group Center:
9 pz divs
6 mot divs
1cav div
2 PzGr divs (Hoth, Guderian)
33 inf divs
Army Group South:
5 pz divs
2 mot divs
1 pzGr div (Kleist)
32 inf divs
Reserve:
2 pz divs
20 inf divs
Romanians:
14 inf divs
Hungarian:
2inf divs
Italian:
2infdivs
Russia:
Baltic MD:
6 tank divs
20 inf divs
Western MD:
10 tank divs
26 inf divs
Kiev MD:
26 tank divs
30 inf divs
Odessa MD:
2 tank divs
12 inf divs
These are just the most western troops along the border with Germany. Russia is estimated to have a total of 230-240 divisions in service throughout the country when Barbarossa began.
Total forces along border for Barbarossa:
German:
19 pz divs
10 mot divs
4 PzGr divs
124 inf divs (including allies)
Russia:
44 tank divs
88 inf divs
For the Poles, I approximated division strength by assuming 2 brigades = 1 division. In most cases I simply left out odd numbered brigades, it took at least 2 brigades before I would assign 1 div.
Now these are just the forces in the immediate area of battle, there were considerable additional forces in both Germany and Russia not included in the numbers here.
As you can see, the historical standing armies were far larger than those we have in game at present. And the build-up of force from the time of the Polish campaign to operation Barbarossa more than doubled Germany’s starting 1939 army.
This feat cannot be achieved with the current low production values in game. And no way can Russia build 150 divisions, let alone 200 or more to get to its historical OOB.
Now I understand this is an open ended game and players shouldn’t be forced to play with a strict historical OOB. But I think the game should at least give players the ability to achieve what was achieved historically if they wish. Right now this cannot be achieved in game, so that leaves a question.
Is it a WWII game or just a strategy game with a WWII theme? I personally would prefer to at least be able to try and mimic historic accomplishments if I can.
Jim
I myself found several sources that contradicted the numbers I have here, but the general point I wanted to make was the same in all cases. The main difference in the sources seems to stem from how they chose to group formations and how large of a geographical area they used to pull data from.
Poland Campaign
German Army
German army group north:
Reserve troops:
1 pz div
3 inf divs
4th army:
1 pz div
2 mot divs
6 inf divs
3rd army:
1 pz div
1 mot div
7 inf divs
German army group south:
Reserve troops:
1 mountain div
5 inf divs
8th army:
1 mot div
4 inf divs
10th army:
2 pz divs
2 mot divs
9 inf divs
14th army:
2 pz divs
1 mot div
2 mountain divs
7 inf divs
Slovakian army
3 inf divs
Polish OOB:
Karpaty Army:
1 mountain div
Krakow Army:
1 mountain div
1 Cav div
5 inf divs
Lublin Army:
1 mot div
Lodz Army:
1 cav div
4 inf divs
Modlin Army:
1 cav div
2 inf divs
Pomorze Army:
1 cav div
5 inf divs
Poznan Army:
1 cav div
4 inf divs
Prusy Army:
1 cav div
8 inf divs
Warsaw Army:
11 inf divs
Wyszków Operational Group:
3 inf divs
Narew Independent Operational Group:
1 cav div
2 inf divs
Total forces for Polish campaign:
German:
7 pz divs
7 mot divs
3 mountain divs
44 inf divs (3 Slovak)
Polish:
1 mot div
2 mountain divs
7 cav divs
44 inf divs
Barbarossa OOB
German:
Army Group North:
3 pz divs
2 mot divs
1pzGr div (Hoepner)
21 inf divs
Army Group Center:
9 pz divs
6 mot divs
1cav div
2 PzGr divs (Hoth, Guderian)
33 inf divs
Army Group South:
5 pz divs
2 mot divs
1 pzGr div (Kleist)
32 inf divs
Reserve:
2 pz divs
20 inf divs
Romanians:
14 inf divs
Hungarian:
2inf divs
Italian:
2infdivs
Russia:
Baltic MD:
6 tank divs
20 inf divs
Western MD:
10 tank divs
26 inf divs
Kiev MD:
26 tank divs
30 inf divs
Odessa MD:
2 tank divs
12 inf divs
These are just the most western troops along the border with Germany. Russia is estimated to have a total of 230-240 divisions in service throughout the country when Barbarossa began.
Total forces along border for Barbarossa:
German:
19 pz divs
10 mot divs
4 PzGr divs
124 inf divs (including allies)
Russia:
44 tank divs
88 inf divs
For the Poles, I approximated division strength by assuming 2 brigades = 1 division. In most cases I simply left out odd numbered brigades, it took at least 2 brigades before I would assign 1 div.
Now these are just the forces in the immediate area of battle, there were considerable additional forces in both Germany and Russia not included in the numbers here.
As you can see, the historical standing armies were far larger than those we have in game at present. And the build-up of force from the time of the Polish campaign to operation Barbarossa more than doubled Germany’s starting 1939 army.
This feat cannot be achieved with the current low production values in game. And no way can Russia build 150 divisions, let alone 200 or more to get to its historical OOB.
Now I understand this is an open ended game and players shouldn’t be forced to play with a strict historical OOB. But I think the game should at least give players the ability to achieve what was achieved historically if they wish. Right now this cannot be achieved in game, so that leaves a question.
Is it a WWII game or just a strategy game with a WWII theme? I personally would prefer to at least be able to try and mimic historic accomplishments if I can.
Jim
