Matrix Games Forums

Playing one of my first pbem games as the TE and I am finding that my lack of understanding of how things work is really hurting me. One example (of many) is with respect to Naval interdiction.

I followed the historical British Naval strategy of putting my main fleet (ie all my DNs and some cruisers) into the North Sea to intercept the German Fleet should it be so bold as to sortie forth. I also put some BCs into the North Atlantic to intercept any German BCs or CAs that might run the gauntlet. Historically BCs and CAs were the only units fast enough to have any realistic chance of escaping the main British Fleet. From July until December my opponent stayed in port so no problem. On the Jan/Feb 1915 turn my fleets returned to port so I again ordered them back to sea with the same orders. So I was very surprised when I saw the sea combat results to discover that most of my ships in the North Atlantic (BCs, transports and destroyers) were either destroyed or badly damaged by the entire German High Sea Fleet of DNs. To add insult to injury his own transports also made it past my blockading fleet to collect untold food and resources.

So can someone please explain to me how interception at sea works.

Did my opponent just get supremely lucky to slip past my Main Fleet or is this something that routinely happens? If the latter than I suppose the whole thing becomes a supreme guessing game. To play it safe the British player will generally have to place his fleet into the North Atlantic to protect his own shipping and deprive it to the Germans. This would then allow the Germans to control the North Sea which would allow German amphibious invasions of Northern France or, heaven forbid, even jolly old England itself. To counter this I guess the British could occasionally place their fleet into the North Sea in the hopes of catching the German Fleet there and, of course, running the risk that the German player is in fact moving his fleet into the North Atlantic. In other words it becomes a kinda of rock, paper, scissors kind of game. Do I have this right, or am I missing something.

Could someone also please explain to me if there is any difference between assigning, for example, a fleet in Scapa Flow to Patrol the East Med as opposed to a fleet in Alexandria? I understand that a Fleet moving from Scapa Flow would be subject to interception in every sea zone it moves through on the way to the East Med while a fleet in Alexandria (being adjacent to the East Med) would not be. But are there any other differences? Does the fleet moving from Scapa Flow still arrive in the East Med on the turn it is ordered there? Does it suffer any extra endurance loss?

To me, it happens all the time. The naval system is the wonkiest part of the game. The Germans routinely put an entire battlefleet into the NA against my blockade. Couple that with the impossible to kill Austrian navy and the TE's naval side of things is harder than it should be.

In another thread I think someone said that CA's help your "detection" value for your fleet and that makes it harder to run the blockade.

I have no idea about the different bases and it is a good question.

I did have 1 or 2 cruisers patroling with my Grand Fleet in the North Sea, but to no avail. Does it make any difference to detection if you have 1 cruiser or 20?

Historically the British had 22 DNs (with 2 more under construction) and 9 BCs (with 3 under construction) at the outbreak of hostilities compared to 15 DNs (with 2 under construction) and 4 BCs (one of which, the Goeben, was given to Turkey) for the Germans. In the game the British start with a 5 to 3 edge in DNs, but each has 2 BCs (again including the Turkish BC which was really German). I'm not sure how many DNs were not in home waters in August 1914, but in the game the Germans gain 1 DN in Nov-Dec 1914 and the British gain 2 in Mar-Apr 1915, and another in June-July. I'm not sure if either side gets more DNs after this as I never tested beyond the JUne-July turn, does anyone know?

So for a few critical months the Germans have rough parity with the British. By June-July 1915 the British will have 8 DNs to the German 5. This roughly equates to 1 game DN for 3 Historical DNs (though the British do seem to get ripped off in only having an equal number of BCs when historically they had twice as many as the Germans). Can anyone give me any advice as to what they usually do with the British Fleet.

By the way the Austrians and French only had 4 DNs each so they are proabably both slightly over represented by having 2 "Game" DNs each, but I realized it is an imperfect world. On the other hand the Americans had 10 DNs historically but only get 2 in the game (unless they get more later on). Maybe this is to represent units stationed in the Pacific or something. Italy also gets short changed as historically they had as many DNs as France and Austria, but they only get half as many in the game.

The number of PDs each nation gets is also interesting as historically the British had 40 PDs, but only get 2 in the game, while France with 17 historical PDs gets 3. Germany had 23 Historical and gets 2 in the game.

Oops, I have to take it back, my opponent has pointed out to me that in fact a portion of my Grand Fleet did intercept the High Seas Fleet as it sailed through the North Sea. Unfortunately, of my force of 5 DNs and 1 BC only 1 DN and the BC intercepted. So I ended up fighting an uneven battle against all 4 German DNs. Obviously I would have been better off having failed to intercept entirely. What I don't understand though is why my entire fleet (all of which sailed from Scapa Flow on the same turn) didn't intercept together. I can only assume that it is some sort of random number that determines which portions of each fleet actually engage in combat. Is this correct Frank? If so then I guess it could just as easily have been me that had the larger force and I just got unlucky.

Still I maintain my position that it would have been impossible for the High Seas Fleet to accomplish what seems to be rather easily accomplished in this game, namely to move into the Atlantic without a major confrontation with the entire English fleet. Indeed I am not aware of the German Admiralty ever even considering such an audacious plan. It does make the game a lot more interesting though I have to admit. In the real war, other than Jutland, there was not really too much naval action.

All ships at sea are auto-grouped into "squadrons" if they have the same mission.  However, there's only 4 per type allowed in each squadron.  The idea being that you get parts of a fleet engaging in different actions.  Part of a fleet will engage, maybe followed by another part of the fleet or perhaps the other side was successful in breaking off.    Rather than a Trafalgar style action with dreadnaughts.

So in essence the Germans get a fighting chance in the begining. I almost always sally out against the AI on the first turn to the North Atlantic and inflict heavy damage on the Grand Fleet. I don't think I ever sank a British DN though. It seems very hard to sink a ship. In fact one of the biggest problems I have is the Russian ships in the Baltic. Even when I send DNs against them, they never seem to sink.

BTW how do we know that we sank an enemy ship? When one of ours is sunk, it is listed as sunk, but it never seems to work the other way (even with transports). Is it that I'm not sinking anything?

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

All ships at sea are auto-grouped into "squadrons" if they have the same mission.  However, there's only 4 per type allowed in each squadron.  The idea being that you get parts of a fleet engaging in different actions.  Part of a fleet will engage, maybe followed by another part of the fleet or perhaps the other side was successful in breaking off.    Rather than a Trafalgar style action with dreadnaughts.

Frank are Battlecruisers considered the same "type" as Dreadnaughts for this purpose? I say this because if I have a fleet of 4DNs and 2BCs they seem to be split into 2 squadrons, one with the 4 DNs and the other with the BCs.

And will the navies of different allied nations form a squadron together if in the same sea performing the same mission? For example if you order the 2 Fench DNs and the 1 Italian DN into the East med to patrol, will they form 1 squadron of 3DNs, or will you end up with 2 separate squadrons?

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Could someone also please explain to me if there is any difference between assigning, for example, a fleet in Scapa Flow to Patrol the East Med as opposed to a fleet in Alexandria? I understand that a Fleet moving from Scapa Flow would be subject to interception in every sea zone it moves through on the way to the East Med while a fleet in Alexandria (being adjacent to the East Med) would not be. But are there any other differences?

Frank,

I have playtested it a bit and there does not appear to be any difference between Ordering a unit from Scapa Flow to perform some action in the East Med and Ordering a unit from Alexandria to perform the same action, except for the possibility of being intercepted in more sea zones. Am I missing something or is that correct?

Frank are Battlecruisers considered the same "type" as Dreadnaughts for this purpose? I say this because if I have a fleet of 4DNs and 2BCs they seem to be split into 2 squadrons, one with the 4 DNs and the other with the BCs.

This might because BC are supposed to be the faster vessels.

And will the navies of different allied nations form a squadron together if in the same sea performing the same mission? For example if you order the 2 Fench DNs and the 1 Italian DN into the East med to patrol, will they form 1 squadron of 3DNs, or will you end up with 2 separate squadrons?

No they never will. National navies will fight on their own.

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
I have playtested it a bit and there does not appear to be any difference between Ordering a unit from Scapa Flow to perform some action in the East Med and Ordering a unit from Alexandria to perform the same action, except for the possibility of being intercepted in more sea zones. Am I missing something or is that correct?

I think they will perform just alike in battle. But isn't their endurance reduced?

Offworlder

In fact one of the biggest problems I have is the Russian ships in the Baltic. Even when I send DNs against them, they never seem to sink.

It can be difficult, The Russians are very close to their base and most Baltic engagements will be over in one or two "shots".

BTW how do we know that we sank an enemy ship? When one of ours is sunk, it is listed as sunk, but it never seems to work the other way (even with transports). Is it that I'm not sinking anything?

You should see enemy ship sinkings.

HarryBanana

Frank are Battlecruisers considered the same "type" as Dreadnaughts for this purpose?

Yes

And will the navies of different allied nations form a squadron together if in the same sea performing the same mission?

No, they will remain separate

I have playtested it a bit and there does not appear to be any difference between Ordering a unit from Scapa Flow to perform some action in the East Med and Ordering a unit from Alexandria to perform the same action, except for the possibility of being intercepted in more sea zones. Am I missing something or is that correct?

That's not correct. If you patrol the Eastern Med from Alexandria you will spend 3 movement, search and naval combat phases in the Eastern Med. if you are coming from Scapa Flow you won't spend any. You will arrive at the end of the turn and you will be there foe the next turn but that's it.

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

All ships at sea are auto-grouped into "squadrons" if they have the same mission.  However, there's only 4 per type allowed in each squadron.  The idea being that you get parts of a fleet engaging in different actions.  Part of a fleet will engage, maybe followed by another part of the fleet or perhaps the other side was successful in breaking off.    Rather than a Trafalgar style action with dreadnaughts.

But Jutland was a big massive battle, like Trafalgar, with many, many ships engaged. Ships still steamed in column in close order due to communications. It seems like I don't get a lot of bang for my buck from a bigger fleet when they run into a smaller fleet and so things like the AH navy turn into pesky, long-term problems.

Jutland-like battles are possible as you can get a number of consecutive engagements in the same sea area.

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

So in essence the Germans get a fighting chance in the begining. I almost always sally out against the AI on the first turn to the North Atlantic and inflict heavy damage on the Grand Fleet. I don't think I ever sank a British DN though. It seems very hard to sink a ship. In fact one of the biggest problems I have is the Russian ships in the Baltic. Even when I send DNs against them, they never seem to sink.

Can anyone tell me if this is a common 1st move for the High Seas Fleet. If so it would appear that the only way England can counter it is to put it's fleet into the North Atlantic as well on the first turn. But if you do this than the Germans could put their fleet into the North Sea and could than amphib invade Southampton, Scapa Flow, Cherbourg or Antwerp. Once again it seems to me that you end up in one of those guessing games.

I suppose as the English you could also put 3 capital ships into one sea and 4 into the other. Seems a bit risky though and you will be outnumbered in CAs.

Any suggestions as to what the British could or should do?

Any suggestions as to what the British could or should do?

Don't put your ASW and shipping squadrons into the Atlantic on the first turn. Instead put your capital ships and CAs into the North Sea which will allow you to inflict damage on the German navy as they move through the North Sea and again when they return to port. Depending on how those battles go will determine how safe it is to later deploy your shipping. Bringing the French fleet into the Atlantic to deal with whatever part of the German fleet reaches the Atlantic would also be a good idea since the Austrian and Ottoman navies won't be deployed on the first turn so the French fleet is not immediately needed in the Med. However, the Brits and French do have to set aside a few squadrons to seal the Western Med on turn 2.

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

That's not correct. If you patrol the Eastern Med from Alexandria you will spend 3 movement, search and naval combat phases in the Eastern Med. if you are coming from Scapa Flow you won't spend any. You will arrive at the end of the turn and you will be there foe the next turn but that's it.

Then this is yet another difference between hotseat games and pbem games.

I playtested a hotseat game beginning in 1915. On my 1st turn I moved a British DN from Scapa Flow into each of The North Sea, The Atlantic, The West Med and the East Med. All 4 DNs stayed in their respective sea zones until the end of the May/June 1915 turn. Each was then available for redployment in the July/Auguast turn.

I have noticed a few problems/differences between hot seat games and pbem games. One of them is that in hot seat games each transport on amphib can transport 1 unit per turn, while (I think I have this right) in pbem games each amphib can transport 1 unit per impulse. Another bug with hot seat games is that the naval combat results are displayed differently for each side. In other words the Naval Combat Results displayed to the TE player may indicate he scored 5 hits on a particular ship, while the CP is told 10 hits were scored on that ship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

That's not correct. If you patrol the Eastern Med from Alexandria you will spend 3 movement, search and naval combat phases in the Eastern Med. if you are coming from Scapa Flow you won't spend any. You will arrive at the end of the turn and you will be there foe the next turn but that's it.

Then this is yet another difference between hotseat games and pbem games.

How so? Are you perhaps confusing "turns" with "phases"?

On my 1st turn I moved a British DN from Scapa Flow into each of The North Sea, The Atlantic, The West Med and the East Med. All 4 DNs stayed in their respective sea zones until the end of the May/June 1915 turn. Each was then available for redployment in the July/Auguast turn.

You could do that in either a hotseat, a PBEM or a solitaire game.

One of them is that in hot seat games each transport on amphib can transport 1 unit per turn, while (I think I have this right) in pbem games each amphib can transport 1 unit per impulse.

Is that right? If so its the first I've heard of it.

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

How so? Are you perhaps confusing "turns" with "phases"?

Perhaps I am. I know what a turn is. There are 6 turns in each year. Each turn begins with the Stategic Phase which includes the Ordering of Naval Units. At the end of the Strategic Phase naval combat takes place. There may be several rounds (is this what you are referring to as naval movement search and combat phases) of naval combat in each sea zone between the same units. If I understand you correctly moving a unit through several sea zones may reduce the number of rounds of combat in which that unit may engage at it's destination sea zone (but I'm really not sure if I do understand you correctly on this).

Following the Strategic Phase of each Turn you enter the Land movement and combat phase. There may be 1 to 4 impulses in this phase.

You could do that in either a hotseat, a PBEM or a solitaire game.

My mistake, I guess I didn't understand your initial answer when you said that my fleets would arrive at the end of the turn and be there for the next turn but that's it. I thought you meant that my fleets moved from Scapa Flow to the East Med would return to port at the end of the second turn.

Is that right? If so its the first I've heard of it.

Well that is what happened in my playtest. I also moved a transport on amphib into each zone. On my first impulse I moved a British unit from Dunkirk to Alexandria; but when I tried this on my second impulse the "amphib" order was greyed out.

is this what you are referring to as naval movement search and combat phases) of naval combat in each sea zone between the same units. If I understand you correctly moving a unit through several sea zones may reduce the number of rounds of combat in which that unit may engage at it's destination sea zone (but I'm really not sure if I do understand you correctly on this

Yes, that's what I mean. There are 3 naval rounds per strategic turn. So if you send a squadron from Scapa Flow to the Eastern Med it will spend those turns in transit whereas squadrons based at Alexandria would spend all 3 rounds actually in the Eastern Med.

Well that is what happened in my playtest. I also moved a transport on amphib into each zone. On my first impulse I moved a British unit from Dunkirk to Alexandria; but when I tried this on my second impulse the "amphib" order was greyed out.

Okay, how its supposed to work is if you use a transport on amphib orders to move a unit across a sea area in impulse 1 that transport will not be available again till the next strategic turn, not just the next impulse.

If a single transport in a sea area can transport multiple units (1 per impulse) than that's wrong whether it appears in a solitaire, PBEM or hotseat game.